q1-73-Mis

Why · Post by **Why** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:56 pm

Claim type: Quest
Claim ID: TR_q1-73-Mis (#1689)
Faction: Misc
Parent claim: TR_1-17-Tel (#35)
Claimed by: Parted User
Status: Not Available (Progress: 0%)
Location: 1:(2700, 1701):0
Files: None

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On hold - I'm not even sure if we still want joinable Daedric cults.

The Molag Bal cult, needs to be around 5 - 15 quests.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:01 pm

This is the best effort for this questline, it was made by Theo. Groza528 replied to this:
Edit: Looks like a good line. This is the one questline I've seen that I think could stand to be *lengthened* because it is a brand new guild to TR, but I do like it. Here are a few more specific comments:
- How much do the other factions in the game know about the Molag Bal cultists?
- Molag Bal's sphere is domination and enslavement. Do you really think it would be acceptable to allow Salms Alan to leave the cult?
- I'd like to see more dealing with the vampires. Molag Bal is supposed to be the father of vampires; perhaps you could persuade some of the local vampires to join the cult. Perhaps, as in the DB in Oblivion, you will be given an opportunity to become a vampire.
- I would suspect that if a daedra came to Nirn, he would do more than just hide out and violate the Duchess of Firewatch... It would probably be better to either a) summon an aspect, like Hircine in Bloodmoon, or b) Somehow send the duchess to Coldharbour (MB's corner of Oblivion, for those who don't know).
- What happens to Firewatch when the duchess dies? She does die, I presume? Does someone else take over? If so, how does that affect the main quest, if at all?

The Molag Bal questline has to be based from Lambinatha (a daedric tuin in a cave near Ranyon-Ruhn) and it has to be anti-temple and anti-imperial cult.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:35 pm

I am glad this guild is becoming claimable in the end. I thought the idea of the cult was abandoned for good.
The ideas mentioned in the textfile came as a result of a long debate between numerous TR members, me being just the one who assembled them in the end. I hope the structure will remain, however more quests are needed.
There was a rival idea of the cult, put together by Starcrunch, but I believe his ideas could be incorporated as well to prolong the line to needed length. I will try to search them and post relevant links here.

EDIT:
Hmm... All the relevant controversies and solutions can be
accessed from this page:
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18285&highlight=molag+bal

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:31 pm

15 - 25 quests? Did I make that number? It should have 20 max IMO

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:31 pm

I really think Theo's idea is a close match with the actions of the imperial cult and the tribunal temple. A few quests from their questlines which are originated by the Molag Bal cult:
-Yishni, a resident of Gah Ouadaruhn gets the vampire disease from the Molag Bal quests (should be one of the first quests)
-at the third quests of the imperial cult Salnam Dral? infiltrates the cult and captured a member.
-Then he bring the imperial cult member to a forward base of the Molag Bal cult were he/she is realesed in the imperial cult line.
-The Molag Bal cult makes three residents of Ranyon Ruhn diseased with the vampire disease.
-The infiltrant in the imperial cult is compromised.
-The Molag Bal cult kills the Firewatch captain which knows the way to Lambinatha, the imperial cult finds his body in an oracle quest.
-The imperial cult dashes through Lambinatha and prevents the cult to summon Molag Bal.

You see, all these quests could have Molag Bal counterparts. Together with Theo's line, I think that would be almost enough for a questline.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:37 pm

Though no summoning of Molag Bal/Duchess slaying. That's too uber.

I believe that was one of the conclusions of one of the many discussions on this. (And it makes sense, even if it wasn't, if you ask me)

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:55 pm

yes, no killing of high ranking people that may or may not be killed in the M1 MQ, and no summoning of daedric lords. (they can try and fail though)

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:18 pm

Well, I was discontent with this closing as well. I would say you would perhaps have to bring Ratagos or Marcus Asirius (or both) instead of Duchess so that the cult could sacrifice him to Molag Bal prior to the summoning. Instead of summoning of Molag Bal you could perhaps place some other ritual, summoning some of his aspects only, or causing some other troubles...

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:47 pm

They will try and fail to summon Molag Bal for the climax of the Imperial cult quests is dashing through Labinatha and casting a most divine scroll on the opening portal to shut it, and then the player and compaions cast divine intervention out.

There is still a Molag Bal cult though, so it is still compatible with watever Theo planns for after the failed summoning.

Have a look at my design for the IC for more details.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:06 pm

perhaps there is an alter ego of the player during the Molag Bal endgame who appears and casts the spell on the portal forcing it shut. Then attacking the cultists.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:09 pm

Could Molag Bal be represented by an Npc. Lets say you bring someone to the ritual era, and Molag Bal replaces that NPC with himself. So he still will be restricted by being a normal mortal, but he would also appear in person. The most evil way of doing this would be to bring someone from the imperial cult or the temple, which fits well within both of the questlines. Also, it limits Molag Bal because he can't have all his daedric powers, because he's restricted by his NPC form.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:49 am

Well, there possibly could be some Temple or Imperial cult attack during the summoning ritual, which PC would have to divert. But letting those attackers to succeed would end up with PC's feeling of absolute failure. You do not want to join secret cult, do extremely difficult quests, challenge powerful priests so that in the end the summoning ritual was spoiled by some religious noobs.
The idea of Molag Bal possessing some of the cult leaders would be delicious, but I do not know if it is not unacceptable because of lore reasons. Perhaps for an effect the NPC could be scaled up a bit and "vampirised".

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:04 am

You remember the werewolve line from Solstheim, I want this to be a little bit like that one. So at the one side you do things against the Molag Bal cult in the imperial cult and tribunal temple line, and at the other side you defend the Molag Bal cult when you are in it. The guys from the imperial cult and temple try to destroy the cult, but you're the one defending it succesfully. I think that will give you a bit of succes and great replay value.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:07 pm

I thought it was said that summoning molag bal successfully was too uber. Perhaps it would be ok if regardless of the side you play (IC or MBC) if something doesn't cast a spell on the portal during the endgame everybody in the room dies, player included. (I.E. successful summoning of Molag Bal)

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:46 pm

Here's another idea for the last two quests, which does, however, ignore the IC questline.

When you become the High Priest, (and perhaps after doing some other quests), the Potentate will ask you to oversee preparations for the sommoning ritual. Basically thing means getting ready the blood of traitors etc. However, at one point the PC hears the voice of Molag Bal, who tells him to mess up the preparations. (Perhaps using the blood of loyal cult members instead of the blood of traitors, or, to be more accurate to what is known about summoning him, using the skin of a Khajiit instead of a Lion Pelt) You do so and then lie to the Potentate, telling him that everything is ready for the ceremony.

Preferably, the ceremony would take place in front of a statue of Molag Bal. At the end of the ceremony, there is a small puff of smoke, and the Potentate goes crazy and dies in some painful and nasty way. (Runs into nearby lava/flame/pit full of angry Daedra/ and then becomes paralysed, or is attacked by invisible enemies, you get the idea, preferably something to do with his sphere). The statue will then "speak", saying that the Potentate was weak and a fool. He then announces that the PC is the next Potentate, etc.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:51 pm

Stupid lack of edit button... anyway, if you're wondering why Molag Bal would want to stop himself from being summoned, he really just wanted to get rid of the Potentate in a very public and very nasty way, and make way for the PC. I'd imagine that there is no better way to disgrace a Potentate than having his god refuse to be summoned, and I think that this would be more interesting than a 2.00 scaled Daedroth or a wimpy cult member attacking the Potentate. After all, he could always be summoned again by the PC.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:57 pm

Gnomey wrote:After all, he could always be summoned again by the PC.

Not really though (at least not in this mod)

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:19 pm

I hope not! I'm sure that he is too busy to go around corrupting Map 1, which is already corrupt enough anyway. The PC can do that just as well in his name.

There just aren't many interesting things that he could do.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:44 pm

I love this twist! It could be done in this way:
1) Bring the victim (Ratagos is an ideal choice - Molag Bal is not that concerned with Imperial deities as with Tribunal, after all)
2) Perform the ritual (sacrificing the victim), but incorporate the error (otherwise it is you to die in a bad way)
3) Watch the show!
4) Become an ultimate bad(_x_)

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:13 am

I love your idea, gnomey. And what could really happen in the IC is that they do stop the portal from opening, and thus also stop the prognate from dying and being regected by his own god. But the IC events wouldn't happen without the player so its logical to ignore the IC questline if you are at the end of the MB questline.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:05 pm

Another fun thing to do with the IC questline is, just once, having the player not actually ending the quest himself. Imagine that you're an IC member, fighting through the caverns and finally reaching the large room, only to see an insignificant puff of smoke, the leader running around crazily and Molag Bal being present only as a voice.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:11 pm

It would be halarious but there is one problem:

The player would just go WFT? Weres this portal I'm gonna close? Who the hell is that guy having a spasm? Why am I not dead by know? WTF???

Maybe it would be possible to implement a way of double crossing ether the MBCult or the ICult. Then it would be funny to see the look on your companions faces as they enter the large room with all this mayhem going on and Molag Bal sleaking and then seeing you charging at them. Then they'd go WTF-AHHH!!

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:04 am

Well, in that case confusion would be good, as long as Molag Bal's dialogue explains a few things. The High Priest might walk forward a bit, away from the other cult members, and then the voice starts, something like: "You have done well, mortal. That fool of a Potentate is no more. You shall receive his mantle and take his rank. Serve me well and you will not have to share the fate of your predecessor." Then the items get added to his inventory and, if you really want to go into detail, his rank will be raised. In this way, the player will still have no idea of what happened but, piecing the information together, he can get a general idea.

Anyway, though it would be fun I'm not really suggesting this as the ending quest. Sure, I'd like to see it done, but an ending where the player can do something might be better.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:09 am

Again the lack of edit buttons... Anyway, the journal entry might also help in making it clearer, through a message like: "My quest has been completed without my help. The summoning failed and the Potentate committed suicide. It seems as though the High Priest might have had something to do with his death. I should return to ~oracle what's-her-name~ and tell her that the mission was a success."

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:11 am

I think its better the way it is.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:34 am

I have made a start of designing the questline. I have designed the first 9 quests now, from before you join the inner circle. I have some good ideas for the rest of the quests as well, just it's late now. What is your opinion on this?

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:42 am

I love the way that you connect the questlines, but there is one conflict:

Marcus Assavia is THE ONE THAT INFORMS the MBC that Heddvi is going to BAL ORYA, not Rayon Ruhn

. You have Marcus under the MBC control after the Heddvi incident. And you have Heddvi going to the wrong place

I hope this is not too hard to change, because the rest of it is exellent

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:37 pm

I'm not sure how feasible the prison break bit is, though. All that guard attacking stuff will take a lot to control properly. If possible, try and keep things on a smaller scale, less city wide riots and stuff. Otherwise it's just hell to keep track of.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:29 am

@BTC: IMO if a sufficiently high bounty is set on you all guards will attack you on sight. This way, however, PC will have more problems then just in Firewatch, but that is a bad side of being known evil god worshipper.

@Jedak: Marcus Assirius was an old Imperial cult leader. In the end this will be the person to be sacrified. Also - Marcus Assirius is assumed to be the cult leader in already made Temple questline! (read through temple questline in reviewing thread !). I am afraid that your cult questline will have to be altered a bit to fit with temple line, which is already made.

@theviking: In the cult questline the tomb ALREADZ IS occupied by the cultists. In this line you have to kill the creatures in there. It would require using extensive scripting to transform it during PCs quest advancing in the cult from one form to another. I suggest that the quest Tomb Inflitration is replaced by some other quest, in which only location of the tomb is revealed to the member (it could be the location of inner circle, destroyed only after the PC finds secret circle in Lambinatha.)

Otherwise I really like thevikings changes.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:14 am

Theo, it would be far simpler to replace one name in the temple questline (at one point it still has to be fixed) than to replace an entire NPC and the dialogue about the imperial cult leader.
I think of something to restict the area that you need to walk with Salms. That will make it easier to script.
And the Lliryn ancestral tomb has to become a base during the early molag bal cult line. Otherwise, the imperial cult couldn't wipe it out. It wouldn't be too hard to place a couple of NPC's and stuff there with a script. Besides, it will make the player feel that he is really helping the MB cult.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:01 am

You are right. I think that whole TT6 should be removed/replaced (it is no interesting quets anyway) if there is to be no conflict between the Imperial cult and the Temple (also conflicting quests from map 2 temple questline have to be removed).
I see no reason why would Imperial cult and Temple fight together, who will wipe out the Molag Bal cultists. They are probably not going to cooperate, if not absolutely necessary, but existence of a common enemy is rarely a reason to begin struggles, where there were no before (Temple is also quite weak on map 1, to challenge Imperials and in Necrom, they have quite different troubles.)

Some other names will have to be changed too (I am sure Trivra Andoril is already in some quest, not compatible with this one). I would really like if Ratagos was killed and head of IC corrupted (and possibly sacrificed - if no other map 1 player), during the cultist questline.

The undead will have to be removed and cultists placed by script also during the Imperial cult questline.

You can possibly just lead Salms Alan out of Firewatch, but by helping him out, you will not be welcomed anymore in that town.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:18 am

Wait. Theo said Marcus Assirius, yet I meant Marcus Assavia, a spy and traitor to the Imperial Cult.

And my cult questline is already made.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:38 am

Yet in the file it speaks of Marcus Assirius... So you must have misread it. Yours Marcus Assivia is the unnamed collaborant in Firewatch, who replaces its captain Darnell in the end, I guess.

Bloodthirsty Crustacean · Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:59 pm

In the TT line, Marcus Assirius was replaced with 'now Oracle girly' as leader. So no issues there. He doesn't feature in the TT line at all.

Jedak · Post by **Jedak** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:32 am

Ladia Tunifus. She is a relative (sister?) of the Tunifus guy in Ebonheart. I think.

theviking · Post by **theviking** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:21 pm

I completed the questline. Anyone has any comments before I approve it?

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 2:40 pm

Ok, I don't like to be negative, but:

1) It's not terribly imaginative. There is nothing to suggest that this is much more than a "generic evil" faction. This is the cult of the "King of Rape". Quests should be focused around rituals of various sorts. The cult should be absolutely obsessed with secrecy. Most importantly, they should be downright evil; the player should get a shiver down their spine just thinking about this group.

2) It's uber.

3) Lambinatha is in use.

4)It's very random whether the player gets to join. If they do get to join, advancement is very easy, and not particularly interesting. The first few ranks should be all about being degraded by your superiors.

I'll start work on an MB line tonight.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:16 pm

Well, but negative is just exactly what you are.

Ad 1) There has been a careful and long discussion about Daedric cults and Molag Bal in general long before you joined. It has been established, based on lore that:
I) The sphere of Molag Bal is domination of mortals - Hence the stress on control and manipulation
II) Tools of Molag Bal are extortion, blackmail, intrigue. I have also tried to use the elements as well.
III) Molag Bal is known for perverting the bloodlines of dunmer. Hence the stress on creation of new creatures in the early part.
IV) The cult is secretive enough.
If you think the idea of the cult as "guys who do rituals", or the "guys associated with vampires" is more promising, you are free to go ahead, but I think it would be more fruitful if you have concentrated on finishing MQ. (Sorry for being blunt, but your post really messed me up).

Ad 2) One might say that about Map 1 MQ as well. Saying: "It is to uber!" is a favorite cheap argument to cast down something without a serious reason. Hell, it is a cult of potent worshipers of dark deity, designed just for TR, and so is meant to be challenging even for high-level characters. Perhaps fetching flowers for weirdo guys would not be uber, but would not be fun too. Or what do you mean by uber?

Ad 3) I am aware of that, but the file is old. There is nothing easier then creating new ruin just for purpose of this quest. There are few on map 1 anyway.

Ad 4) You contradict yourself now. First you complained that the cult is not secretive enough, now you want it to be joinable easily? And why do you think advancement is easy? But perhaps the period of being degraded might be longer.

Lud - You got the privilege to design and create main quest for map 1. Is that not enough for you? Don't you want other people have their brainwork implemented as well?
If you have some more specific objections (NPCs, locations used, absence or presence of some particular quests), please feel free to point at them, but your four points do not establish a good reason to rework the whole concept of the cult, I am afraid.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:49 pm

Theo, I'm sorry if I offended you, but my complaints do not refer mainly to the actual quests themselves, but to the over-arching structure behind them. The actual quests are mostly good; when I meant that I would work on a questline, I meant that I would play around with the framework into which your quests fit and the advancement framework that they are based on. This would include a couple of ritual-based flavour things at the start of the line and increasing the emphasis on certain things you already have in there.
I didn't mean that what you have written is bad, just that it still needs a bit of polish and flavour.

On the subject of the joining, it seems to me that most all players would miss the way of joining the cult and never have the opportunity to experience it. If I was trying to impress a cultist, I would help them kill their prey. Thus, I would miss the opportunity to experience Molag Bal.

By uber, I just meant that the advancement was extremely fast. If there's one faction where you have to earn your stripes, this should be it.

And, a lot of development work was already done by myself, Groza and 'Crunch on this faction. (This pertained largely to the whole slave aspect) Much of it was centered around flavour aspects; simple things like some tests of faith when a slave, having to do some random demeaning things, etc.
I also liked the whole thing with the separate Vampire/non-Vampire strand, and the internal faction politics aspect between cynics and true believers.

What I would recommend is that we take all of your quests outlined above and fit them into this general plan (the chart), along with some extra vampire quests and lower-level slave-y ones. This means not scrapping any of your work, just changing the progression a bit, etc.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:57 pm

lets see what we've got here...
*opens file*
Quest 1: I think it would be better if all parties involved, minus the player of course, were associated with the cult. Since killing the khajiit is really the requirement to get into the cult, just put the codex on her. This way the evil manipulative characters who simply like to kill stuff will get it after saving her and immediately thereafter killing her. I do not like the idea of a disposition requirement to get into the cult if you already have to find a random ass quest.

Quest 2: I am not too sure about the slave bracer thing for some reason. Also, I think it is wierd that she never actually summons a flesh atronach. I think it should be some other creature.

Quest 3: meh. How about having the player kill a cult member the quest giver doesn't like. (probably would have to goad the person into attacking, but that should be hard considering this IS the MB cult.)

Quest 4: uh... what?

Quest 5: mundane, but not unusual or nreasonable. Needz moar death.

Quest 6: I like this premise for some reason, although I don't like how the player isn't told outright to kill him.

Quest 7: meh. mundane and not inherently evil. Perhaps have the family visiting it at the time, but still meh.

Quest 8: Not very Molag Bal-ish

Quest 9: why a ghoul heart? Make it a daedra heart, make the ritual spawn a Dremora Lord or some other possibly more fitting daedra, then have it attack the player.

Quest 10: I don't like it. Casting that spell doesn't make anyone else a vampire. Also, the premise seems a bit odd. Seems like they should be vampifed AFTER they join, not as a means of recruiting.

Quest 11: I like death and fighting a mass of guards all at once.

Quest 12: How would this work? When the person falls off the edge of the map it counts as necrom? Actually, now that I type that, actually having two people walk from firewatch to the edge of map 1 and then getting disabled when the hit the border would be cool.

Quest 13: Lambinatha? Could you rephrase this please? I dont quite follow it. (I am running on 3 hours of sleep, sorry)

Quest 14: make the player manipulate him to get the amulet using dialog choices with multiple options from multiple topics.

Quest 15: I'd prefer if the player could name multiple traitors without naming all of them.

Quest 16: fuck charming, I think he would follow if you threatened him and beat him to within an inch of his life.

Quest 17: Reward is uber. If the player doesn't fuck up the ritual there should be a massie explosion type thing killing everyone in the room incluing the player. I'd really prefer if the cultists managed to fuck up the ritual so that MB wouldn't even have to get involved. (I don't think he would care)

OVERALL: Seems a bit linear only having one quest at a time. What is this? Oblivion? This needs more death and a LOT more evil.