River Politics on the Thirr (Required Reading)

[Sload]

This post comes with an announcement: Riverbridge has been moved to Map 3. This is not open to discussion. It is now a Velothi canton controlled by the Temple (ish).

The River Thirr has evolved, without any planning whatsoever on the part of any of us, into the singular most politically important object in all of Morrowind. This is amazing in and of itself, and when taken in the context of the fact that great rivers are usually politically important in the real world (the Great Lakes, the Mississippi, the Rhine, the Nile, the Yellow River, et cetera) it is even more fascinating.

The river is vastly important economically: Imperial goods (and passengers, you came first by carriage and then by boat) travel through the Coronati in the west. Deshaan crops, the main foodstuffs of most of Morrowind and a large part of the West as well, travel through Andaram in the west. I would state with great certainty that 80-90% of Morrowind trade goes through the Thirr.

And look at that, five factions control a part of this river. Only the Telvanni are left out. The Imperials at Old Ebonheart, the Redoran at Lake Coronati through Ald Iuval and Ald Marak, the Dres at Ald Mar, the Hlaalu at Narsis, Novas Andaram, and Stonefalls, and the Indoril at Riverbridge.

This last one requires some explanation, because I said above that Riverbridge is a Temple canton. It is technically administered by the Temple, but the Indoril, of course, have a large deal of control over the Temple clergy. This would be the centerpiece of that control, their control of river trade through the officially neutral city of Riverbridge. They use it for other political maneuvers as well: the Temple, officially to maintain peace between the houses, stopped the brewing war between Indoril and Hlaalu by declaring that the Hlaalu would stay west of Riverbridge (Novas Andaram notwithstanding) and the Indoril would stay east of it. This was really to protect Indoril interests: if the Hlaalu tried to take their land, the Hlaalu would be certain to win.

So here's a run-down of the situation with the river.

Under the Tribunate (government between the Battle of Red Mountain and the signing of the Armistice), there was a stable status quo which favored the Indoril. The Hlaalu's primary function was to serve as the center of imports and exports with the rest of the Empire. Whereas the Redoran strictly refused to open their boarders, Narsis welcomed foreigners in (to a limited extent). Meanwhile, the Dres were mostly supposed to grow crops. These houses had separate policies to protect themselves from piracy: the Redoran have set up a deal with Hlaalu to guard their ships with their forts at Iuval and Marak, for a small fee. The Dres, meanwhile, have their own fort at Ald Mar, where their territory ends. The ships then sail to Indoril protection at Riverbridge, where all trade sees a nice tariff to fill the House's coffers. Then they sail up to Ebonheart (the Indoril version) where the Indoril control their trade to the rest of Morrowind. Everyone gets something, but Indoril wins.

Tiber Septim changed everything. Hlaalu was largely unharmed by the attack on Morrowind. Depending on who you ask, they either willingly worked with the Empire to conquer Morrowind or they wisely chose to surrender in the face of an insurmountable threat (even more so for them than any other house: they had almost no defense system, having mostly paid Redoran to do it for them, which was probably their worst decision ever). Redoran, however, was destroyed by the war, and while Vivec was signing the Armistice, the Cyrodic army fought their only battle with the Indoril at Ebonheart. Through the combined scorched earth policies of both armies, Ebonheart was leveled to the ground. After the signing of the Armistice, it was rebuilt as an Imperial port.

The Hlaalu seized this opportunity to expand their power. Their first act was to build the port of Stonefalls. This led to the Drenim-Andarius Treaty of 896, which decreed that all foreign trade through the River Thirr would pass through Old Ebonheart only, and all native trade through the River Thirr would pass through Stonefalls only. This concerns only goods, not passenger ships, and does not restrict trade through the Inner Sea that does not pass through the Thirr.

The Imperials thought this was a pretty good deal, most native ships were Dres and wouldn't stop in their port anyway. The Hlaalu thought the same: Imperial ships almost exclusively passed through Narsis, they were already collecting a tariff on them there. So they were actually collecting money on all trade, just at different points.

But they still wanted what the Indoril had, complete control of the River Thirr. Their attempt at that came through the city of Novas Andaram. This city was built at the southernmost point of the united Thirr, any further south and it would not control all of the trade. It is, however, a fledgling city, plagued by pirates and largely undefended. It is, in many ways, a failed attempt, and it has only pissed the better fortified Dres at Ald Mar off.

Meanwhile, their relations with the Redoran have crumbled. The Hlaalu have taken possibly as much of half of the Redoran territory (largely unsettled territory, admittedly), but they have held tight to Ald Iuval and Ald Marak. The Temple has forbidden open warfare by them against incoming ships, but they have stopped protecting the Hlaalu against pirates.

Finally, there was one final stipulation on the Riverbridge Agreement that the Temple set up, in order to appease the Hlaalu: their ships get a much lower tariff going through Riverbridge than any other house's.

And thus we have a fascinating situation set up around the River Thirr which dominates Morrowind politics. And we did it without even trying, how cool is that?

[Hemitheon]

That map is really artsy. I want a copy without words.

[Sload]

I REVEAL THE COOLEST THING IN TR QUEST HISTORY AND YOU COMMENT ON THE MAP I DREW IN FLASH IN ABOUT 5 MINUTES?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Unbelievably sexy.

Don't really have anything to say, except that this sounds brilliant, and also really fuels dialogue work for this region. If only all other places had such an in-depth history.

On a more mundane note, won't a canton just plonked in the middle of a river look a bit crap? Also, the name Riverbridge really sucks now it's in the middle of all those other decent ones.

[Gez]

Pretty solid, except for this:

Tiber Septim changed everything. Hlaalu was largely unharmed by the attack on Morrowind. Depending on who you ask, they either willingly worked with the Empire to conquer Morrowind or they wisely chose to surrender in the face of an insurmountable threat (even more so for them than any other house: they had almost no defense system, having mostly paid Redoran to do it for them, which was probably their worst decision ever). Redoran, however, was destroyed by the war, and while Vivec was signing the Armistice, the Cyrodic army fought their only battle with the Indoril at Ebonheart. Through the combined scorched earth policies of both armies, Ebonheart was leveled to the ground. After the signing of the Armistice, it was rebuilt as an Imperial port.

From what I understood of Morrowind's conquest, as described [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/mwbooks/on_morrowind.shtml]here[/url], Tiber never really invaded. There had been a few border engagements, especially in Black Marsh, but that's about all. Imperial legions massed on the West, in Skyrim and Cyrodiil. The Redorans were starting to think they were screwed. And then Vivec negotiated with the Emperor before the invasion took place.

On a more mundane note, won't a canton just plonked in the middle of a river look a bit crap?

As crap as Molag Mar.

The only important thing is to give it bridges to both sides of the Thirr that are high enough to allow boats to pass beneath, and yet it should be reasonably realistic that a cart may pass through the bridges and the city.

Also, the name Riverbridge really sucks now it's in the middle of all those other decent ones.

Let's call it Gah Ouadabridge!

Seriously, if that city was founded after the annexion of Morrowind by the Empire, its name in the common tongue of the Empire makes sense. People are usually not very imaginative when naming new cities, it'll usually be things like "New City-I-Like" (e.g.: New York), "Landscape City" (e.g. Ocean City), or "Someguy City" (e.g. Jeffersonville). And I'm not going to even list all the cities that are simply named "Newcity" or some variant of it (Newtown, Villeneuve, Neustadt, and so on). It's only after a long while, when the names and the languages have slowly evolved different ways, that you get city names that are not too boring.

Therefore, Riverbridge is a perfectly fit name.

[Hemitheon]

I could have sworn I read about skirmishes throughout western Morrowind. Wasn't there at battle at Kragenmoor?

[gro-Dhal]

That book is conceivably a work of historical revisionism, overplaying the wisdom of the Morrowind leadership and underplaying the aggressiveness of the Empire.

[Gez]

I could have sworn I read about skirmishes throughout western Morrowind. Wasn't there at battle at Kragenmoor?

In the first era, during the Four-Score War, when the Reman Empire tried to invade. As for Kragenmoor, a TIL search on this city name gave no results related to a battle.

That book is conceivably a work of historical revisionism, overplaying the wisdom of the Morrowind leadership and underplaying the aggressiveness of the Empire.

Somebody named Erramanwe of Sunhold is totally going to be a cheerleader for the Empire of men.

[Hemitheon]

Must have made it up then. LOL.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

As crap as Molag Mar.

Surely we aim to surpass Beth? Anyway, I'm sure our exteriorers can come up with something. They always do.

[theviking]

Very cool sload, very cool. I was a little sceptic about the Riverbridge moving thing but you just totally made it worth. If we make it Indoril that means that Hlaalu actually has little power in this region of the Thirr. Can we make a hlaalu fort at the oppsite side of the Thirr from Riverbridge? A velothi canton with indoril architecture on it is something that hasn't been tried before. It could become cool if its done by a good exteriorer.

[Sload]

Fuck, Gez. Can you make up another reason Ebonheart became Imperial for me? Maybe they bought the land as part of the Armistice?

On a more mundane note, won't a canton just plonked in the middle of a river look a bit crap?

I thought I said we weren't discussing this?

Considering that all cantons ever added were plunked in the middle of some area of water, I'd have to say no, though. Bethesda never put a canton on land.

[Hemitheon]

If you look in the subsewer of the OE Sewers you'll find evidence of an Indoril town. One of the major points of the deal between TS and Vivec was that the Imperials would gain control of certain areas of land, so on Vvardenfell, there's a fort near almost every major town, and the same on the mainland. Well if one of the areas they were given full control of was a small town, I doubt the Imperials would build alongside it, they tore it all down and built a new city over its ruins.

[Sload]

I realize that I forgot an important arrow: southward, from the inner sea, comes the mineral riches of Morrowind.

[Gez]

Fuck, Gez. Can you make up another reason Ebonheart became Imperial for me? Maybe they bought the land as part of the Armistice?

I'm not sure it's a good idea, but what about some "let's animate the Skar as an undead juggernaut of destruction"-level magic used by the Indoril to utterly destroy their most beautiful city rather than see it given to the filthy Imperials?

Say what you want about the Imperials, but I don't see them destroying a city that looked a bit like Almalexia just to rebuild it in their own architecture style. That would just be an incredibly stupid waste. So I have to put all the blame on the Indorils, who were busy committing ritual suicide at the time because they were too horrified and disgusted and ashamed by the prospect.

Maybe they did something a bit like the Hiradirge, though on a lesser scale. Maybe they summoned Dagon. Maybe they used all the satchel charges ever found to this day. Maybe they moved the old city to a pocket plane of Oblivion. Whatever they did, the Indoril Ebonheart was no more.

The Empire, who had been granted control of the land by the terms of the Armistice, rebuilt the city in two places: Old Ebonheart on the site of the lost Indoril city, and Ebonheart on Vvardenfell. Both of the new Ebonhearts (even though it's called Old Ebonheart, the mainland Ebonheart is new) started as just a governmental palace, a military fort, and some offices for Imperial missions -- EEC, Imperial Cult, embassies for the other provinces, and so on. The civilian settlements around Old Ebonheart happened naturally. Around the Vvardenfell Ebonheart, they didn't develop because of the proximity of the canton city of Vivec, which is simply more attractive for the common civilian and trader.


This doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense, but that's the best I can do with what we have.

(And actually, I find kinda cool the idea of having bits of the Indoril Ebonheart in a forgotten, slowly crumbling pocket plane, populated by the ghosts of suicided Indoril nobles who stubbornly refuse to admit that Resdayn is no more. You're free to find it dumb, of course.)

[Sload]

Riverbridge = Almas Thirr

"Mother Thirr"

[Lud]

Good work as usual, Sload


Ebonheart:

So yeah, Ebonheart was an Indoril stronghold before the Armistice. However, it's ruler was among the most prominent of Indorils to commit suicide, and was followed in this by much of his family and a moxy-load of his retainers. In death, they burned down their own compound,determined to leave nothing behind. With the local leadership gone, lawlessness soon broke out. House Hlaalu, displaying the sort of kindness that characterises such a noble house, (:P) moved into Ebonheart to "help re-establish order", claiming to be in hot pursuit of outlaws who had fled to Ebonheart.
The surviving Indoril populace are having none of this and set about resisting the traitorous Hlaalu. The Imperial Legions arrive in Ebonheart to find it the site of a battle between the two Houses, with much of the old city in flames.
The imperials set about building a fort (which expands to become Castle Ebonheart) here, in order to try to separate the warring factions, etc. (They also have an eye towards ensuring that Imperial taxes are put on the traffic on the Thirr)
Things settle down somewhat, but by now, the old Indoril sections are largely destroyed. The Indoril nobles who lived here are all dead and the remaining Dunmer leave the remains of their city behind for a life away from the Imperials. (Any true Indoril would prefer to live as a pauper among Dunmer than among the n'wahs.) In any case, there's not much left of this city of tears by this stage, what with the biggest mass suicide in Morrowind, a small war and two major fires.
The Indorils sign over the rights to the city formally about 3E 200, still feeling bitter over the loss of what was once a jewel in their crown.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Lud's idea is neat, works very well and sounds just right.

Sload's name wins.

And I like this idea...

(And actually, I find kinda cool the idea of having bits of the Indoril Ebonheart in a forgotten, slowly crumbling pocket plane, populated by the ghosts of suicided Indoril nobles who stubbornly refuse to admit that Resdayn is no more. You're free to find it dumb, of course.)

... but not for Ebonheart. But the idea of a decaying city trapped in one of Lord Dral's pocket realms (real city or not - it could just be a construct, rather than some teleported real place) is pretty nice, to my eyes. It would add some variation to the 'Daedric place' thing we've got going with all the Pocket Realms (admittedly brilliant) that we've seen so far. But that's for another thread.

[blackbird]

I like the name and history of Riverbridge.