q2-14-Mis

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Claim type: Quest
Claim ID: TR_q2-14-Mis (#1958)
Faction: Misc
Parent claim: TR_2-15-Tel (#78)
Claimed by: Beave
Status: Approved (Progress: 100%)
Local map: Fort Windmoth
Location: 1:(4545, -961):0
Files: TR_q2-14-Mis_Beave_1.esp; TR_q2-14-Mis_Beave_2.esp; TR_q2-14-Mis_Beave_3.esp; TR_q2-14-Mis_Beave_4.esp

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The misc quests for fort Windmoth and Verulas Pass. One quest for each of them, please.

[Theron Udraer]

claiming. I think Windmoth's quest will be a run around quest, where there are 3 people, and person A asks you to go to person B, person B will not accept whatever peson A gave and tell you to clarify with person C, so on and so on.

I think Verulas is going to be a little simpler. Very simple, in fact.

There is a guard returning to Fort Windmoth, but the Pass is filled with a herd of kagoutis. He asks you to kill them, in return for a reward. Kill them all, and return to him. He will give you 200 gold, and thank you. There will be another guard at the other end trying to get out, and he will start the quest, too, if you came from the Fort Windmoth side of the Pass. They both will say, "Thank you again for killing the kagoutis." after you finish the quest, and leave in a day. HOWEVER, if either of the guards are killed, you talk to the other guard. IF BOTH ARE KILLED, then you must go to the guard captain and report this. He will ask you to kill the kagoutis. Report to him and he will give you 100-200 gold.

Should he give you less, since the guards are dead, or will he not blame you, and give you the reward? Anyway, there has to be a simple quest SOMEWHERE in there. This makes for a perfect hack'n'slash quest.

I will post the Windmoth quest soon. Revisions are welcome.

[Theron Udraer]

windmoth -

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Re: Verulas Pass, I don't think guards would have any trouble with kagouti. And this quest should have more to do with Verulas than Windmoth, I think.

Try another idea, 'cos this one just doesn't really go anywhere. Kagouti maybe, but guards and its current location? Not really.


Re: Windmoth, Theron - please also check dialogue and interiors etc. for clues as to the NPC's identities and their creator's wishes: not just their names. Lucien is a drunken shambles who's locked himself in his room, and is not going to be interested in buying healing potions, nor is he going to have a wife.

This quest must be rethought, and I suggest you read up on Fort Windmoth and its characters to get an idea of where the quest could/should be going. The only real 'blank slate' there is that merchant guy outside, who would be a good choice to quest (as you may have spotted, seeing as you included him in your draft).

[Theron Udraer]

oh well then... I'm not up for this quest. I'm running out out ideas! Revoking, someone else can have this one.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

No, no. Feel free to keep at it. Quest design is a communal process, despite the fact that it's here in the Claims section.

As far as I recall, the only time that a Design claim gets 'claimed' is once it's actually been fully finalised.

So feel free to chip in with ideas and stuff whenever you have them. There's no obligation to 'claim' anything at this stage, so there's no monopoly on ideas or development. As soon as you have a good idea, shout it out, and we'll see what we think.

[Gnomey]

Wasn't Fort Windmoth the corrupt rat's nest which is a key location in the Darconis Gambit questline and which is in league with House Telvanni? Or were the names switched around and I just forgot about it? Here's the info from the original Darconis Gambit post:

Fort Windmoth: A de facto Telvanni stronghold. It is chronically understaffed and undersupplied, many of the soldiers are on the Telvanni payroll, and Arvs Rethrathi, the commander, is a member of House Telvanni in earnest. The fort is used to funnel Imperial supplies into Telvanni hands for clandestine operations. The game going on behind the scenes looks like this (pieces of this are available from the notes in the Windmoth interior, but its pretty obscure right now:

* 1. Naleth Llarni (A Telvanni agent at Windmoth who works with Arvs Rethari) puts Servam Nieries (corrupt smith) in contact with the local Telvanni (for a small fee).
* 2.) Servam sells Imperial armor/weapons to these Telvanni (for a big profit).
* 3.) Naleth or the Telvanni inform Arvs Rethari of the deal.
* 4.) Arvs demands a sizable cut of Naleth's profits (say 50-60%).
* 5.) Arvs funnels this bribe back to the Telvanni clients (minus a small cut for himself)


Naleth and Arvs are using Servam as a means of funneling Imperial supplies to the Telvanni for use in clandestine operations.

And here's the interior claim which adds some more information:

[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=17579&highlight=fort+windmoth[/url]

I'd suggest that the quests are all based on making it clear that Windmoth is a rat's nest.

[Gnomey]

Ah, it is the place I was thinking of. I might as well add that this sort of makes the Dragon Nest Inn quest not work: either the plot will need a major overhaul or another fort will have to be used.

[theviking]

The Jealous Shopkeeper:

Neldam Volothre is the only trader in Verulas Pass but he is very dissapointed in the lack of customers. He complains about this often and is very jealous of The Twisted Root, a very popular tavern in Verulas Pass. So he wants you to persuade other travelers to visit his shop. You can now speak to each of the people of Verulas Pass to find out what kind of goods they want to buy.
Suleri Gavala: Doesn't want to visit the shop because he is in a hurry to leave Verulas Pass.
Tolvise Seloth: Doesn't want anything, she says that she has everything she desires, especcially solitude.
Rolave Arendus: Is far too busy with her tavern to vist Neldam Volothre's shop.
Adriano: is willing to sell some clothing. (an expensive belt, expensive pants, and 2 pairs of common shoes)
Pliton Sialius: Says that he is only interested in booze but that there's plenty of it in The Twisted Root.
Idredhel Ashibael: Shouts that he wants to enjoy his vacation and not be bothered
Fedaves Shilansour: is interested in clothing and soul gems
Salms Llaran: Is interested in poems or fiction books
Syrinia: Has some final goods that she is willing to sell, but she doesn't want to say what they are. (Two lights, a potion and a cheap weapon)

You return to Neldam Volothre. He gives you 50 drakes, (which you can use to buy the supplies of either Adriano or Syrinia) and an expensive ring and a common soul gem from his shop. If you show the ring and the soul gem to Fedaves Shilansour she isn't interested expect if you persuaded her enough. Otherwise you can buy the supplies of Adriano and then she will agree (when she sees it) to visit Neldam Volothre's shop. If you buy the supplies of Syrinia, you won't be able to persuade any of the two possible costumers to visit the shop. If you can persuade Fedaves Shilansour Neldam Volthre says he is very satisfied and that you can keep the expensive ring. (The other goods should be turned in) If you can't persuade her he is enraged about his losses and requests that you pay back 30 drakes (If you spent the 50 drakes, otherwise you should turn everything in). You can also just run off after he gives you his goods.

[theviking]

I've got an idea for a quest for fort Windmoth too:
Naleth Llarni is the skooma dealer of Fort Windmoth and everyone buys their skooma in his room.He complains that Bradasou Rethre hasn't payed his debts yet and that you should force it from him for a good reward. Bradasou Rethre however, is a poor guard and can't afford to pay so Naleth probably wants you to slay him to set an example. An other option is to scout out a nearby dungeon with Bradasou to get enough loot to repay Naleth. If Bradasou lives, you get a skooma vial from Naleth (because he keeps a costumer) otherwise a portion of moon sugar.

I'm gonna expand this quest later on.

[MMMowSkwoz]

I can't find a Bradasou Rethre. Do you mean Bradasou Alendu? Some moon sugar doesn't seem much for killing a level 25 trooper. And don't you always get a bounty for killing a guard, or is that my imagination?

Also, I think you could work Shaga gra-Grazgob into this too, because her dialogue clearly shows she isn't a fan of Naleth and his skooma.

[theviking]

Free from addiction

Bradasou Alendu is an imperial trooper standing on the outside of For Windmoth who recently became clean of the skooma. However, he still has a heel of a debt with Naleth Llarni, the fort's skooma dealer. So he asks you to deal with him, he can't do anything himself, since he is always posted in the exterior of the fort.
You can confront Naleth Llarni, but it won't do a thing (It will make his alarm rating higher, though). He has a hiding place for the skooma in his room. (I reckon a chest half hidden under a bed) You can steal it and then present it to Naleth. If you've got a very impressive strenght he will be blackmailed to leave Bradasou Alendu alone. If not, he will attack.
An alternative path is to talk to Shaga gra-Grazgob, who, according to rumors hates Naleth Llarni and his drugs. She wants to keep an eye on him so he can't do anything, but she doesn't know the hiding place of the skooma. If you find the aforementioned chest and activate it, the journal will update and you can return to Shaga. She will then promise to keep an eye on Naleth (If she actually will stand in the same room as he after this is up to the quester) and Bradasou Alendu will be very relieved. In all possible end results he will give you the saber of the swift blade, that was an heirloom that he wouldn't give to Naleth Llarni.

[theviking]

I think this is ready to be sent to unclaimed, wouldn't you agree?

[MMMowSkwoz]

The Jealous Shopkeeper:

Is this correct?
Fedaves Shilansour: Will buy ring and soul gem if disposition high enough. Will buy Adriano's clothing without disposition requirement. If buys anything, then agrees to visit shop.
Salms Llaran: doesn't buy anything?
Adriano: Sells you clothing for 50 drakes.
Syrinia: Sells you two lights, a potion and a cheap weapon for 50 drakes.

Will the items need to be unique? Otherwise the player can just go any find whatever it is either of the potential customers want.

Free from addiction

If you kill Naleth Llarni, do you get a bounty? (I'm not sure if you get a bounty for killing a guard who attacked you)
I also don't see why he would attack you, since you have no-one you can report him to.

[theviking]

The jealous shopkeeper: That is correct, Mowskwoz. I think it would make it incredibly complicated if the items aren't unique, so I think that would be easier.

Free from addiction: The guard thing is governed by his class and his script, so it could be easily changed.I reckon he would want to attack you if he sees that you have his stock and that you probably are weaker. (It is a foolish thing to do after all, letting him see you've stolen something of him)

[theviking]

Bump

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Free from Addiction looks fine.

In the Jealous Shopkeeper, I don't get the role of the people who sell you stuff in the Twisted Root. Why does buying from Syriana mean no one will buy from you? And from Adriano that she will buy from wotsit in his shop?

And why are they offering to sell you stuff in the first place?

[Stryker]

They look good to me as well, aside from what BC asked. I like the Jealous Shopkeeper quest alot, actually. Kinda reminds me of the apprentice search for Faruna. Maybe that is why I like it.

Anyways, the look good overall.

[theviking]

Syrinia and Adriano are two traders that used to have a shop in the Windmoth Legion fort, but they were bullied out of it. So they could have some remaining trading items that they brought with them.
Syrinia only has some very bad quality items (that she is glad to be rid of) so if you buy from her, the extra items won't be able to persuade new costumers. Adriano has some very good quality clothes left, but he knows a Redguard clothier is in short demand, so he's seeking another profession. So he is willing to sell them to you and naturally Fedaves Shilansour is very interested in these wares.

[MMMowSkwoz]

So are you supposed to be pretending that Adriano's fine clothes came from Neldam Volothre's shop? And that's what convinces people to visit the shop later?

[theviking]

You can tell Fedaves Shilansour that the clothes are the sort of wares you'll find in Neldam Volothre's shop. (which will be true, after you've given them to Neldam.)
Alternatively, showing her the expensive ring and having a high disposition will be enough already.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

So you can give the good Adriano and Syriana give to you to the main shopkeeper?

Alright.

I think we could do with a slightly more concise plan going up, but I'm ready to move this to unclaimed.

[Beave]

Claiming. Will use what y'all have designed, don't think new cells will be necessary. Do I need to use the merged ESM from now on?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Granting, happy modding.

Yes, please use the TR_Mainland.esm (and name it that, if you can: at present it is downloaded as TR Mainland.esm).

Feel free to ask any questions you have, and I'd appreciate it if you posted up a file after completing either quest. Cheers.


Cathartis, your showcase will still be valid. I just probably won't use it as the actual quest? Hope that's okay?

[Beave]

Okay, I'm almost finished with the Jealous Shopkeeper. So far everything is working out great. Here's what I'm doing:

When you go and talk to everyone in Verulas Pass, their response updates a global used by the script TR_m2_q_14_PersuasionTracker, a global script that starts when you accept Neldam's quest. It also updates the individual's ControlQ local, so they don't repeat it. This is done because each response adds 1 to the global, so the quest will only appear right if the people respond only once. The script is set to update the PC's journal and kill itself once the global = 9, that is, PC has talked to all 9 people.

If it would be better, should I change the global to a local? At first I made it a global because I thought I would have to put it in the filter requirements, but the ControlQ turned out to suffice. I probably will do this anyway.

[WIP deleted, new version in place.]

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Ah no globals!

Unwritten rule: don't use Global variables unless absolutely necessary. And it never is.

Yes, please use controlQ. 'Swat it's there for.

[Beave]

Understood, and I have made the change. Here's the WIP to replace the other one, and I'll upload one to the permanent file holder once I've finished one quest.

Tomorrow is the beginning of marching band season, so my time for TR will be chopped up into tiny little pieces. I will work on this as my top TR priority when I can.

[MMMowSkwoz]

You can upload at the top of the page if you want. That's what it's for.

[Beave]

I don't want to clutter the top of the page with temporary WIPs. That place is reserved for the official ones, KnawWhatIMean?

@BC: If it's unwritten, perhaps you should add it to the Quester's Guidelines PDF.

[MMMowSkwoz]

@BC: If it's unwritten, perhaps you should add it to the Quester's Guidelines PDF.

It's in there yo: page 4, point 10.

I should probably add a section on efficiency sometime though.

[Beave]

I think I'll just put Naleth's chest beside the table, because there's not enough room under the bed for a chest, unless it's a small one, and the chest should be at least medium-sized to realistically hold the stock of drugs. Any alternate suggestions?

EDIT: Naleth's alarm rating is already 100, so should I lower it and then still raise it or keep it at a constant 100?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

These minor details are fine for you to change as you see fit, as long as you don't break the sense of the original quest.

Just keep the rating at 100. That change would have been invisible to the player anyway.

[Beave]

Done.

As for the FW quest, Naleth greets you upon taking the skooma from the chest, so it may look a bit weird if you take the item itself instead of pressing "Take All", but it all works out, and it's a unique experience! The reward is a steel scimitar called "The Swiftblade", and it has a poisoning enchantment.

[Faalen]

You could avoid that overlap by having a MenuMode condition on the ForceGreeting. In fact, ForceGreeting should always have a MenuMode condition.

I'll take a look at this later tonight or tomorrow if no one gets to it first.

[Faalen]

Right, I've had a look at this and these are my thoughts.

First off, the file is dirty. It contains 10 errant cells, TR's version of the 72 evil GMSTs. They get saved to any and all files built with a map file active. Since you're an int modder and don't generally use the maps, it's not surprising you missed them. Now you know.

I'm curious as to why you've created a leveled list. It seems to contain only skooma, so I don't see why you couldn't have just placed skooma in the container.

Two of your scripts need MenuMode conditions in them for efficiency and immersion reasons. If you don't see where, I'll post copies with the necessary modifications.

Beyond that, I have some issues with the quests themselves. They work technically, but as I've posted in another review, that isn't sufficient. The goal of a good quester is to immerse the player in the gameworld, not simply advance them through a journal sequence. Both quests play very much like they were hastily tossed together and only scantly tested.

In the shopkeeper quest, the instructions given to the player are very unclear. "Talk to everyone in town" is a strange request, and it doesn't help that the player doesn't get any indication of their progress on this front until everyone has been spoken to. It would make much more sense if the player's task was to find a set number of customers, say two or three. As it is, the player could easily talk to all of the good leads first and then be stuck having to ask all of the dead ends before moving on in the quest.

Once the player talks to everyone, I as a player am confused about what the shopkeeper wants next. He gives me 50 gold, a ring, and a soul gem, and tells me to sell the ring and gem to one customer and buy goods from one of his competing traders. When I go to do this, neither of the traders will talk about the subject, the lady to whom I was told to sell these items simply says "I'll visit later," leaving me with an undelivered shipment, and the shopkeeper won't address the topic until I've told the book-lover that I don't have what he needs.

The reward is also confusing. I keep the ring, but isn't that what the lady is coming in to buy? What have I actually accomplished for this man? What about the other traders? Are they not a problem anymore? One of them says something about leaving, but without a journal update or further dialogue reference it's extremely ambiguous. Neither of the competitors barters, either.

Dialogue-wise, there's a lot of awkwardly worded material, as well as a couple of entries that are far too self-aware ("I'm a trader who trades. A lot of trade in that sentence, but I think about trading because I'm a trader...etc."); in other words, the dialogue is very "moddy" and doesn't fit the mood of its surroundings. There are a couple of simple grammatical errors that would have been caught with a proofread as well.

The Fort Windmoth quest causes me just as much consternation. I don't like how forthcoming the questgiver is about the fact that he buys skooma. Even a corrupt Legion guard is still a Legion guard, and it's out of character for him to say right off the bat to a complete stranger that he's in debt to a drug dealer. It also breaks immersion that the dealer is telepathically aware of why I've come to him. I should have to choose to confront him in dialogue before he says anything about it.

In the CS I saw that there are several ways to complete the quest, but they are not made apparent in-game. When an NPC threatens to kill me if I don't leave a subject alone, I expect to be able to talk to him again and force him to do just that. I don't expect a cryptic journal entry about finding a different way to "muscle" him. What if my muscles are my muscle? I wound up taking the skooma and killing him anyway and got the journal entry that "at least the debt is gone." That's kind of an abrupt ending, and it has remarkably few consequences seeing as I just killed a soldier.

Overall, the impression I get is that this needs to be done more slowly and with a LOT more attention to detail. Test extensively not just from the standpoint of functionality, but as a player as well. Try to forget how the cogs are turning in the background and ask yourself if what's happening actually makes sense. If it doesn't, the quest needs reworking.

Give this another go.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Some of the dialogue problems probably come from the original NPC claim. I think this was one of the claims done by a non-native speaker.

Anyway, don't lose heart Beave, but take what Faalen says in account. He's a sensible guy!

[Faalen]

If the dialogue I pointed out wasn't you, I apologize. More importantly, though, is that that means this dialogue is out in the community in this embarrassing condition. We really do need to fix that, and fix it soon.

I stand by my critique of the quest-related dialogue, though. It does need rewriting.

Off topic: It's 5 AM here. Why am I still awake?

[Beave]

Wow, awesome review. I probably did rush this a bit, and I'll spend some time making it better. In response to a couple things you said:

I did notice the 10 cells edited, tried to clean it with MEE, they came back when I saved, so I guess I'll have to do that again before re-uploading.

The skooma is in a leveled list because when you are confronted by Naleth with his skooma in hand the only way you end up keeping the skooma is by killing him. Otherwise, he takes the skooma. Now if you just said "Oh, sorry." and give it back to him before Shaga sends you to find the stash. You would come upon the empty chest and the journal would activate. That would be dumb.

About the ring and soul gem thing, I forgot to change that dialogue. At first I thought Fedaves was actually going to buy the stuff, but the plan was to just show her the goods to pique her interest. That change will be made.

There isn't much of a consequence for killing Naleth the way you did, seeing that HE attacked YOU, not you him.

I think before this I had figured the job of the quester was the actual construction of the quest design, but it's clearly more than that, and from now on I will do this job much better. Thank you for bringing this realization to me, Faalen.

[Faalen]

If I understand you correctly, you used a leveled item so there would be an infinite amount of skooma in the container. This is both unwise and unnecessary. First off, an item placed in a container can have its quantity set to a negative number, which means that container will always have that number of the item in it when activated. This is obviously bad for many reasons, so I don't suggest you do this. Also, items can be added to and removed from containers through scripts the same way they are NPCs, though I don't recommend that course of action either. It would make more sense for the dealer simply to interrupt the player upon activating the chest rather than allowing them through.

[Beave]

My only problem with what you're proposing is that you would be confronted by Naleth even if you're just looking for the stash so Shaga can be notified. Of course, the script can just not do the ForceGreeting if you're in that situation, but then it would be kind of weird if oyu'd already been confronted, because now all of a sudden, he doesn't do anything.