Full Telvanni Quest Summary (Maps 1 and 2)

[MMMowSkwoz]

This is a summary of all the Telvanni quests on maps 1 and 2. I was trying to get all the information in one place, so I thought I'd post it up to clarify a few things.

I made a new version of Lud's old quest map, mainly for myself. If people could clear up the questions and point out any errors, that would be great.
[url=http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4479/telvanniplanak5.jpg][img]http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4479/telvanniplanak5.th.jpg[/img][/url]

(The indexed points (A) to (I) are included in the attached file.)

The main points, as far as I can see, are:

1. We need a questline to gain Vaerin's vote.

2. We need a questline to gain Mithas' vote if you sided with Rathra in the main quest.

3. We need to clarify what happens if you fail a questline for anyone's vote (an issue with Eldale and Dral).

4. We need a questline to get rid of Faruna if you failed her quest (chose the wrong apprentice).

5. We need to clarify where the player's Stronghold is.

6. We need to expand the post-Council Seat quests.

I've probably missed or misunderstood some things - there's been a huge amount of discussion on the topic.

[blackbird]

I believe there is no stronghold for house Telvanni.

[Hemitheon]

I think he means the dumb idea circulating that the player gets to keep the tower of one of the councilors. Tel Uvirith should suffice for the player. If he doesn't like it he can always get Tel Uvirith Expanded.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Sorry, I was just try to collate the information in the other threads. Is there not going to be a stronghold then? So what is the result of the Helnim/Darconis Wager then? Most of the other quests lead up gaining a seat on the council.

[Faalen]

Does the player have to get all of the living councilors' votes or only one? From the looks of the chart, each set of master quests is a possible avenue to the council with only one being required to get there. Is this correct, or does the player have to do all of the master quests? I think it makes more sense if the player has to do all of them.

EDIT: Re: failing Dral's quest-

As it exists right now, failing Dral's quest means a dead end not only on the road to the council but in the house in general. Failing the quest drops the player's Telvanni faction reputation considerably, essentially guaranteeing a stop to further promotion. This is, of course, not set in stone and full negotiable; I'm just presenting what currently exists.

[Gez]

The original plan was that the number of seats in the council doesn't change here on the mainland (there's a reason so many Telvanni went rogue, they get fed up with not being able to continue advancing in the hierarchy; it also explains why this house joined the colonization of Vvardenfell), therefore for the player to become councilor he has to replace one of the existing Lords or Ladies. Who all own a stronghold. Which, along with their rank, is inherited by the one who replaces them...

[MMMowSkwoz]

As far as I can see with all the previous plans, the player needs the full consensus of the council to get a seat. So the player needs to do all master quests and if they screw up one they can't advance (except if you don't choose Mithras in the main quest, which we shouldn't penalise the player for, so that needs a contingency quest).

Gez, are you suggesting the player take Tel Oren? The player would be replacing Faruna on the council after all.

[Theo]

I believed that Mithras quest was already implemented in map 1 as RR main quest (that one with ebony mine - conspiracy).

[MMMowSkwoz]

I believed that Mithras quest was already implemented in map 1 as RR main quest (that one with ebony mine - conspiracy).

Ah, excellent. But in the last page of the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=17358]quest thread[/url], Lud seems to be suggesting that this quest is a prerequisite for Mithras offering the alternate route, not a way of making him vote for you if you didn't choose him.

[Gez]

Gez, are you suggesting the player take Tel Oren? The player would be replacing Faruna on the council after all.

I remember this was the plan originally.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

I think he means the dumb idea circulating that the player gets to keep the tower of one of the councilors.

"Dumb idea circulating"? Eh? It's always been part of the Telvanni line.

The 'idea circulating' is this bizaare and unfounded claim about the player only getting strongholds for Dres and Indoril. That has had no precedent anywhere in TR's plans ever.

I have no particular commitment to either view, but let's get things straight.

[MMMowSkwoz]

In the current Faruna plan, it's entirely possible for her to still be alive and well at the end. It seems odd for the player to take her tower in those circumstances.

My concern is that without the player needing to obtain a stronghold, there's no purpose behind the Helnim Gambit. If the player doesn't need a stronghold, it's just a series of quests tacked on (and given to you by Eldale even though you might be the same rank as her).

[Lud]

You gain Mithras' vote by:
-taking his side in the MQ (betraying Rathra without her knowledge)
-doing a few quests to intimidate him or similar (I think crunch may have written soething on this)

[MMMowSkwoz]

Do you need to do both those things or just one?

[Gez]

Both. If we do just one, it means either removing one of the MQ branches or making it mandatory.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Sorry, I meant does the player need to do both to get his vote or just one. But you've answered my question anyway, since you don't want to make Mithras' section of the MQ mandatory.

So if the player does side with him, they don't have to do the 'intimidate him' line?

And how does the Ranyon Ruhn quest line fit into this then? Is it compulsory for Mithras to offer you the option in the MQ? So it needs to be done before the MQ?

[theviking]

The Telvanni stronghold is the tower of Helnim, which you get at the end of the Helnim Gambit, by removing Narrusa. The problem with these apologies quests (For example to regain the favour of Mithras) is that they are unrealistic and therefore hard to create. Mithras isn't going to trust you, whatever you do.
I'm strongly in favour for rising to the counsil through a majority in votes, instead of getting full agreement. (Together with disposing of Faruna, off course.) This will lessen the workload, and it is unrealistic to please the Telvanni which you pissed off.

[MMMowSkwoz]

I found Starcrunch's plan for the get-Mithras-to-vote-for-you issue. To be honest, I agree with viking - I don't buy the idea of him being all buddy buddy again if you do him a few favours. He should be pretty pissed off that you sided with Rathra. However, I think the 4th quest is workable. If we just have a single quest to coerce Mithras into voting for you, that would solve the problem.

Expanding on Starcrunch's plan , the quest would be something like this:

After completing the Helnim Gambit, Rathra or the player's advisor suggests that the player attempt to blackmail Mithras into voting for them. The player has to use their influence in Helnim to force some Imperial troops to move to Ranyon-Ruhn (on the premise of investigating the Firewatch attacks). The player then orchestrates several attacks on local people by the Imperials, spreading rumours about Mithras' inability to do anything about it. Then the player goes to Mithras and promises to remove the Imperials (giving Mithras all the credit) if he gives his vote.

As soon as the payer doesn't back Mithras, the Ranyon-Ruhn Main Quest is not accessible (Mithras is super friendly in that, which would be pretty unrealistic).

Also, I'm in favour of needing everyone's vote, otherwise it's a bit too easy. If you screw up a quest, too bad.

Re: The Stronghold, I've no problem with Tel Narrusa, but it might present some problems in terms of dialogue and ownership of items.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Item ownership can be set so that it belongs to 'Stronghold owning rank of Faction', and it's probably not too much trouble to add some unique dialogue removing references to Narrusa/making people sound subservient.

Anyway, just got to say that it's great seeing you do this, Meeshka. You really have a handle on this stuff.

[MMMowSkwoz]

Ok, here's a questline for Master Vaerin's vote. There are basically two possibilities: do all his quests for his vote, or betray him and have him replaced by Llevari Telsaran and get her vote. It uses most of the ideas suggested previously.

I'd love some input on problems, inconsistencies, etc. My main concerns are:

1) It's too easy
2) Vaerin's final quest (TR_m2_HT_Va6) is a little nasty and there's no alternative for 'good' players

edit:see later post for more recent file

[Haplo]

The 'idea circulating' is this bizaare and unfounded claim about the player only getting strongholds for Dres and Indoril. That has had no precedent anywhere in TR's plans ever.

I have no particular commitment to either view, but let's get things straight.

Let's get things straight. The precedent at Tamriel Rebuilt regarding strongholds has always been and will always be that for Great Houses Hlaalu, Redoran, and Telvanni the player will not have the opportunity to go through the same processes of claiming, constructing, and fortifying a "stronghold" on the mainland as they did on Vvardenfell. On the mainland, only Indoril and Dres will allow for this to happen.

Throughout the duration of various quest lines, however, the player has an opportunity to kill people with often substantial holdings and inhabit those dwellings. This isn't limited to just Great House Telvanni, but to clear up misconceptions, we should stop referring to the inhabitance the player can "obtain" via the Telvanni quest line as a stronghold, and start referring to it as something else, such as the "player dwelling" or something of that nature.

[Lud]

Most of your line seems pretty good, MMMWSkwoz, but I have a few quibbles with it:

-The reasons of the council for getting rid of Vaerin seem a little suspect; they're too motivated by concern for the house instead of self-interest.

-The general structure of the narrative is a little too similar to Bal Gernak vs Eldale and to the interactions between Rathra & Mithras in the MQ. What I would suggest is that you edit it so that the player is made aware that they have the opportunity to sell Vaerin out and then they can go to Llevari themselves.

As far as the "player dwelling" goes, it should be a case of enabling a slightly edited version of the same int with the nutty stuff removed and some things to make the player feel that it was slightly refitted for them.

[MMMowSkwoz]

The reasons of the council for getting rid of Vaerin seem a little suspect; they're too motivated by concern for the house instead of self-interest.

it was meant to be that they can't risk a war with Indoril so they know someone has to take the blame for it (and they don't want it to be them). Perhaps I could have the player incrimate a Telvanni Councillor, so they have to choose one of themselves to take the blame.

The general structure of the narrative is a little too similar to Bal Gernak vs Eldale and to the interactions between Rathra & Mithras in the MQ. What I would suggest is that you edit it so that the player is made aware that they have the opportunity to sell Vaerin out and then they can go to Llevari themselves.

True. I'll see what I can do to improve it.

Thanks for the input Lud

[theviking]

Anyone remembers the Daily Guar. (or how that newspaper was called) Even though it was fictional and satirical, it stroke a true note. Every time a spokesman of the House Telvanni was asked about the current events in Vvardenfell, he replied that "The Telvanni don't care". And, in my opinion, they don't. They only care if they personally are in peril.
This brings me to you questline, why would the counsillors care if Indoril threathens another one of them? They only care if this happens to themselves. So they won't vote Vaerin out of the counsil because of this, only grab some popcorn and watch the show. Besides, Vaerin is one of the most powerful Telvanni (Third only to Rilvin Dral and Rathra) and it will be very hard to remove him from his post.
I've always thought the best way to get Vaerins vote was to disintegrate the temple, to replace Dralothas Omothran or to remove the threat of Llevari Telsaran. I hope you can implement this in your questline. I'm sorry this post ended up so blunt, please don't take it personally. Your questline is very good and I really like your effort, please continue with them.

[MMMowSkwoz]

No, constructive criticism is good. I really just wanted to get some discussion going on the topic.

Stealing liberally from Thrig's idea [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=20002]here[/url], I'm going to expand Vaerin's quests a bit.

Any suggestions for a convincing Llevari Telsaran takeover would be great. I don't want to kill Vaerin, and I can't really think of a convincing way he could be blackmailed..

[Haplo]

A lame justification would be to catch Vaerin red-handed doing something else. Maybe stealing from the Telvanni coffers or poaching on some land somewhere. Even some underhanded skooma dealing or something of that nature to give him enough cause to resign his position as councilor. Maybe he could experience an accident causing him to lose his magicka?

[Aiwyn the Breton]

About the stronghold thing, it can be added an entry which redirects you to Vvardenfell like "The countess in Firewatch will not allow you to build a new stronghold, but duke Dren in Vvardenfell should... Try speak with Bluehermitgal (don't remeber the name) in Sadrith Mora, but remember: you'll have to join our branch on the island which is independent before you're allowed to build a stronghold there". Then you'll have to play (if you didn't before) all the Vv GHT questline (at least until the stronghold is built) and when it is back to mainlaind you can continue the MHT questline...

Seeing how the countess "loves" Telvanni, I think it's justified...

[MMMowSkwoz]

I really can't see the Telvanni deferring to any wish of the Duchess'. They'd probably be even more keen to build a stronghold if the Duchess didn't allow it.

I'm perfectly happy with it not being a stronghold anyway. Instead, the player just needs to become lord of a town or city. After completing the Helnim Gambit, you are technically the Telvanni lord of Helnim. Tel Narrusa gets a bit of a tidy up and technically becomes yours, although not much changes.

[Aiwyn the Breton]

well, in Vv to build ANY strongold you have to get a construction contract, and build an illegal strongold could be the excuse the countess to attack telvannis and set up a civil war... maybe she would not, but as hearing (ehm, reading) what she says is an opportunity she and telvannis wouldn't miss...

[MMMowSkwoz]

Fair point, but I think the idea of building a stronghold has been strongly veto-ed. The only way a player would aquire any property (let's stop using the word stronghold) would be through killing or deposing the owner.

[Aiwyn the Breton]

Maybe i didn't explain myself right: i was giving a in-game explanatione for NOT build a telvanni stronghold other than Tel Uvirith

But, because there's Tel Uvirith, a stronghold could still be a condition for the quests, only you have to go build it on Vvardenfell joining the Vvardenfell branch of the Great House or, if you don't want to stop the "quest streaming" on the mainland, you could just be warned about it with something like "yea, you should build a stronghold now, but the countess doesn't allow us to, so try ask to our local branch in vvardenfell if you really want one..."

Get it?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

let's stop using the word stronghold

Why? It is the official term for 'House settlement needed to get on to Council' for all the vanilla Houses. Isn't it a little OTT 'PoliticallyCorrect' sounding to say that the player must now acquire a 'House related player settlement'.

As long as we make it clear to our players that 'stronghold' doesn't mean 'a house you build', we're alright.

Or are we saying mainland Houses don't call the 'required structure' a stronghold, as their Vvard counterparts do?

[Haplo]

That's a bad idea. Any mention of the topic "stronghold" on the mainland for Houses Telvanni, Redoran, and Hlaalu should prompt a message similar to "Don't you already have a personal stronghold on Vvardenfell?" Stop saying the word stronghold.

EDIT to encompass BC's post since I was semi-sniped:

the house settlement needed to get on council, like the parliament of bugs, is satisfied by Tel Uvirith. For Hlaalu, it's the stronghold on Odai Plateau. And for Redoran, it's the whatever stronghold Redoran players get(I don't know since I've never played Telvanni or Redoran)

[Aiwyn the Breton]

but can you go that far with only the ml quests? Because if you can, then they tell you "you have a stronghold in vvardenfell" when you don't.
I mean, if you ask for a stronghold on the mainland and you never joined GHT on vvardenfell that message would be unfitting.

[Hemitheon]

Would it also be possible, if the player hasn't built a stronghold on Vv, to have the Parliament say something like,

"The Parliament has decided to establish a more permanent residence on the southern Vvardenfell mainland, thereby consolidating our current and future claims on central and western territories. Archmagister Dral has approved the area known as Uvirith's Grave for the construction of a stronghold. It is our wish that you take command of this region and further the Telvanni cause. However, because of the quarantine, you will have to proceed through the Vvardenfell chapter of House Telvanni."

Something like that. That way, the construction of Tel Uvirith is clearly approved by the Parliament and will be recognized as the player's stronghold, versus just being another asset.

[Aiwyn the Breton]

Ah ok. Nevermind then.
So the stronghold is not required to continue on the ML Telvanni questline?

[MMMowSkwoz]

We can choose whatever requirements we want for a council seat - a strongholod doesn't have to be one of them. However, I need a reason for the player to do the Helnim Gambit line. My justification for this is that to obtain a seat on the council, the player must be the lord of a town or city.

If people are strongly against the player having Tel Narussa after completing the Helnim Gambit questline, perhaps we can come up with some reason why they cannot occupy it?

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

No, I think (?) everyone's been happy with the player getting Tel Narrusa. There's just debate as to whether it's called a 'stronghold' or not. (I think.)

[Lud]

The player is advised by Vulyn Gemayn (his advisor and friend) that they will have serious trouble trying to get the Council's support without having demonstrated their ability to do services for House Telvanni. Thus, Gemayn suggests that the player volunteers themselves to Rathra & Eldale to carry out the actions they've been planning in Helnim.

[MMMowSkwoz]

I've been doing some more work on the Vaerin / Llevari Telsaran quests. Just need two more 'intro' quests for Llevari and then I'll post up what I've got. The end of Llevari's line is pretty complex now - you can stab people in the back who are stabbing other people in the back..