[FCG] City banners/insignia

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:56 am

Alright artists, another FCG here. We need designs for city insignia that we can place on banners and such. These should be symbols; stylized images with symbolic meaning. Their function is the same as the insignia the cities of Cyrodiil have in TES IV. We need them to be different in design though. A little more abstract symbols rather than animals and celtic knots.
Keep the designs clear and simple. Concepts need to have clean vectors and be completely texture-ready. So no scribbles on the back of a coaster. Colour schemes and insignia ideas can be discussed in this thread.

For study:

A few designs that can be incorporated or used as inspiration.
[url]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Lutemoth/Culture/Raga/jale-symbols.jpg[/url]
[url]http://www.majhost.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=1378758[/url]

This is an old discussion regarding banners. More inspirational concepts can be found here.
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=18681[/url]

The main cities we need insignia for are:

Rihad:
Forbear city. Coastal, with the primary cult being that of Tava.
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=19565[/url]

Taneth:
Taneth is by far the most Imperial city, actively suppressing traditional culture.
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=19581&highlight=taneth[/url]

Elinhir:
Vibrant trading city with Forbear as well as Crown influences.
Quote:
Elinhir sits in a crescent moon shaped depression between 3 tall mountains. It was chosen by the early Ra-gada for its strategic position as a military city, but due to the pass into Skyrim and Cyrodiil close to it, Elinhir soon evolved into an elaborate trade city.
One idea for an insignia for this city is that it could feature the sun and/or a moon crescent.

Insignia for the other cities can also be posted here, but those are far from a priority.

Disclaimer: The provided threads are discussions, so it doesnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t mean that everything said therein is actual lore.

Lighter Than Some · Post by **Lighter Than Some** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:41 pm

Ooh, this looks fun.

Obagovo · Post by **Obagovo** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:10 am

Just confirming this. Are we going to use that Stros M'kai insignia or a variant of it?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:55 am

the crown symbol is a crown. the forebear symbol is a sword. these should be incorporated into the images for cities of the appropriate affiliation.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:51 pm

The Crown emblem is actually repeatedly shown in Redguard as a clenched fist with arrows pointing away from it. It is certainly not just the Stros M'kai emblem, because it is also shown on the Prince's sails in the intro cut scene.

I have to say though, that I was never a big fan of that symbol, so we can probably explain it away as the Prince's personal insignia or forget about it entirely.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:07 pm

Adanorcil wrote:The Crown emblem is actually repeatedly shown in Redguard as a clenched fist with arrows pointing away from it.

Those arrows are crowns.

Adanorcil wrote:I have to say though, that I was never a big fan of that symbol, so we can probably explain it away as the Prince's personal insignia or forget about it entirely.

I agree, It's ugly and very of "power to the people" looking. It should be more "power to the Na-Totambu" looking. Less blocky too.

I have a big stock pile of redguard screens that I've been laboriously gathering whilst playing through Redguard. I'll update my concept art page with them as soon as I can get around to it.

I already took the liberty of collecting Forebear and Crown representation from Redguard
- The "armours" they wear are nothing more than different coloured shirts in the intro, very boring and almost identical(with shitty colour schemes - Crowns red sash, Forebears blue although in the intro beth clearly aren't sure who is who as they're mixed around alot) and not worthy of attention aside from the Forebear emblem on them.

Forebear,Crown,Imperial
[url=http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=forebears.png][img]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/1041/forebears.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crownsu.png][img]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5021/crownsu.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=redguardimpflag.png][img]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/8317/redguardimpflag.th.png[/img][/url]

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:26 pm

i dono, i like blocky and "power to the people," at least for Crowns. the redgurads dont strike me as the type to have [url=http://www.luz-herald.net/images/heraldry.gif]elaborate heraldry[/url], just something that is easy to identify on the battlefield and inspires some fear/loyalty.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:26 am

It's the fist that makes it seem more brutal and Forebear to me - but then they are all Redguards so I guess the crown symbol can also give a "This is who we are and we'll kick your face in if we need to" feeling.

I think the Forebear symbol looks fine as it is, though we may need to elaborate a little on whatever that thing in the middle is. Not a skull, please.

I think once we're clear on these two it might be nice to incorporate aspects of allegiance into city insignia to give more of an immediate feel for the place. Just a thought.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:35 am

[url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Greater_coat_of_arms_of_the_Russian_empire.png]You call that elaborate heraldry?[/url]

I agree that they should be simple; not blocky, but similar to Lutemoth's designs.

Vintem · Post by **Vintem** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:11 pm

for me redgards seem very alike on our ukrainian cossacs - proud, free, keepers of traditions of ancestors and independent...but nevertheless loving beauty and style in clothes and symbolism, that is very important for people, whose fate is in permanent tension. likeness is very near. But at the simple way of life and without the special private property they tried to declare oneself from a deserving side even by external attributes, so therefore I anymore like that symbolism was knowable and stand, but also elaborate and beautiful, to underline pride of people and give a hint that "we are able not only to militate"
for example, what was that stand large character in a center with the beautiful framing on a circumference. That he was clear and on a battle-field and at the same time was beautiful.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 3:18 pm

[img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/insignias.png[/img]
Lute flavoured

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:17 pm

Interesting mixup of Lute's symbols. I like the look of the crown symbols. The forbear symbol doesn't look very good imo. Why is there a crown in there?

In any case we are looking for city insignia, not crown or forbear emblems.
It's good to incorporate forbear and crown symbols into the insignia if you can, especially if the city is strongly connected to one or the other. But those are not the only features of the cities. They shouldn't dominate every insignia we make. I don't want them to be just different combinations of swords and crowns.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:31 pm

Myzel wrote: I like the look of the crown symbols. The forbear symbol doesn't look very good imo. Why is there a crown in there?

The inverted crown is a placeholder that seemed to look good enough as it was. It looks almost identical to the TESA:R forebear emblem aside from the crown. Of the two I prefer the Forebear insignia.

Myzel wrote:In any case we are looking for city insignia, not crown or forbear emblems.
It's good to incorporate forbear and crown symbols into the insignia if you can, especially if the city is strongly connected to one or the other.

Hence the Forebear and Crown insignia ideas to give us something to go off that fits with the established style.

Myzel wrote:But those are not the only features of the cities. They shouldn't dominate every insignia we make. I don't want them to be just different combinations of swords and crowns.

Not at all, as I said; aspects of allegiance. For example - Rihad: A woman holding a sword (that is the exact same sword from the forebear insignia) - subtle but immediatly noticeable if you know what you're looking for.

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:42 pm

Exactly. Just making sure everyone understands that.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:53 pm

[url=http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Vahiku/TamrielRebuilt/rihadinsignia.jpg]First attempt at Rihad insignia.[/url]

I'm not a great fan of it myself. Basically, I tried to combine some imagery that I could mentally connect to Rihad: Tava's birds and the stylized Yoku waves of the sea.

Obagovo · Post by **Obagovo** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:11 pm

I think the wings should be more rounded at the ends. Also, the sword feels slapped on.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:20 pm

too elaborate. maybe kill the mask at the bottom, leave just water, wings, and sword.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:28 pm

I really like it but I agree with LN's post about the mask. Maybe you could try dropping the sword lower down through the waves and wings? It might flow a little better then - as long as it doesn't end up looking too much like the [url=http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/badges-regt/badge-regiment-sas.gif]SAS insignia[/url]

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:29 pm

too elaborate. maybe kill the mask at the bottom, leave just water, wings, and sword.

Bird, actually, but same thing.

I think the wings should be more rounded at the ends. Also, the sword feels slapped on.

Wing idea might look better. Sword was slapped on.

I might try later to improve it.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:52 am

I dug this off my computer, It's some crest like logo I made a while ago. I'm not sure if its of any help, but It might be okay to play around with.

Sorry about uploading the image (Photobucket is down for maintenance)

Obagovo · Post by **Obagovo** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:12 pm

A couple of quick sketches based on some rough ideas:

For Taneth; Redguard and Imperial hands clasped in unity. The sword is an Imperial two-side as opposed to the traditional one-side of the Redguards.

[url=http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2561/tanethsketch.jpg][img]http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2561/tanethsketch.th.jpg[/img][/url]

For Rihad; to show its militant stance, the insignia represents Frandir Hunding and his Book of Circles.

[url=http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8649/rihadsketch.jpg][img]http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8649/rihadsketch.th.jpg[/img][/url]

For Dragonstar, it's basically Rev's Crown emblem cut in half. It's to show their shame/hate in losing part of their city to the Nords and that they will reclaim it someday.

[url=http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9140/dragonstarsketch.jpg][img]http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9140/dragonstarsketch.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:06 pm

A few takes on Ada's Rihad design
[img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad1.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad2.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad3.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad4.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad5.png[/img]

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:06 pm

Nice work everyone, I had a feeling people would like this FCG.

Now for criticism.

@Relinq:
That design looks interesting, but what it lacks is a meaning. We might be able to use it for something, or simply inspiration.

@Obagovo:

Taneth: Showing the imperialism in the city is good imo. But you may have overdone it a little. Especially those clasped hands are a little... well, cheesy. The design needs work.

Rihad: Interesting take, and the insignia looks promising.

Dragonstar: Not familiar with lore on Dragonstar, but it strikes me as very un-redguard (or really, unlike any people in war) to show something like shame or defeat in an insignia. If anything I'd assume they would emphasize the city is theirs. All of it.

@Revenant:
If Id have to choose, I think number 2 or number 5 is best. THose are the most coherent ones. Though all of them look a little slapped together. They don't look like a single symbol but rather a few separate ones put together. Which they are, of course. I think these insignia should be coherent designs, if you catch my drift.

Edit: By the way, can we use those 'Crown' emblems Revenant put together a few posts back as the Stros M'kai insignia? It looks similar to those designs that were all over TES:Redguard, but better.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:49 pm

i really like number 5, but i'd make the wave fatter. it wont read well from far away.

Katze · Post by **Katze** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:36 pm

@Revenant

In picture 1, the waves look kinda like those strange butter curls you get in hotel breakfast. Not too keen on this one.

I really like 2 and 5, that the wings in 2 seem to come together to form an invisible circle at the centre, and I like how the sword is more emphasised in 5.

I'd say I like 2 the best out of the ones you've shown, it looks to be a more compact, cohesive image. You might want to work on the wave part of it though, it's a bit fine to be seen easily except when close up.

@Obagovo

I really like your Rihad crest, it brings out the military ideals of the city, is distinctive, and looks like it would translate really well to the solid-black wall paintings in the style of the ones by Revenant.

All that worries me is that the sword motif is starting to become a little saturated. Hopefully insignias for later cities (Gilane, perhaps?) will be able to come up with an original, distinctive non-sword design for their insignia.

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:05 am

@ Obagovo
I really like your Rihad logo, it has a nice balance to it.

Obagovo · Post by **Obagovo** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:42 pm

Another idea for the Taneth insignia:

[url=http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4409/tanethsketchmkll.jpg][img]http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4409/tanethsketchmkll.th.jpg[/img][/url]

An eagle (or any other bird of prey) to show both the Redguard's strength and that they revere Kynareth instead of Tava. I've already explained the sword.

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:03 pm

Tava is a bird goddess. I don't really see how that affect anything. If anything, Taneth's insignia could involve a dragon or a diamond.

Revenant, I like nrs. 2 and 5. best. Perhaps try making the waves solid, like I did in my design. Make the sword end above the waves and re-appear under it.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:08 pm

Adanorcil wrote:I like nrs. 2 and 5. best. Perhaps try making the waves solid, like I did in my design. Make the sword end above the waves and re-appear under it.

Will do, I'll post screens tomorrow.

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:53 pm

Attention grabbing double post

[img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad6.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad7.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad8.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad9.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad10.png[/img][img]http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Revenant/Insignia/rihad11.png[/img]
I threw that last one it just to stir things up abit, so that the Rihad insignia doesn't get too "tied down" to one certain layout (I actually prefer the Tava's wings formed with crossed forebear swords one out of them all. Although I am aware that it has more than a passing resemblance to a tribal tattoo).
I'm really liking Obagovo's circular design also.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:07 pm

i'd totally get it tattoo'd

Obagovo · Post by **Obagovo** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:11 pm

I think that 5 is your strongest piece because the sword (being the Forebear symbol) is displayed prominently.

Also as a side note, I'm glad you liked my insignia. Do you have any suggestions on the direction I should take it?

Revenant · Post by **Revenant** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:24 pm

Obagovo wrote:I'm glad you liked my insignia. Do you have any suggestions on the direction I should take it?

I'll post some more tomorrow

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:01 pm

An idea for the insignia of a coastal city.
[url=http://i30.tinypic.com/30lnf68.png][img]http://i28.tinypic.com/dousjq.png[/img][/url]

RelinQ · Post by **RelinQ** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:31 am

Hey thats pretty cool Lud!

I've been wondering for a while about about the insignia(s?) for Elinhir. Now I havent actaully seen what the town looks like in any stage but, I'm wondering if the town will be divided due to the whole situation with the displacement of borders (and The War of the Bend'r-mahk.)

What I'm meaning is will there be more than 1 insignia if the town has these divided areas?

I only ask this because I've read one thing saying that "Redguards and Bretons are still giving resistance today... ...resistance is mostly encountered in the cities of Jehenna and Elinhir, and of course, along the border to those provinces." yet another quote saying how the town has nords living within or is under nord-control.

Elinhir thread:
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=19811&highlight=elinhir[/url]

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:17 am

Looks nice Lud.
About Elenhir thread: According to Lady N, that discussion is mostly useless. Lots of wild ideas that we should not attach any value to. I left it out of my post on purpose. I'm not sure if anything final has been decided on the city, aside from the things I very briefly summarized in my introduction post.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:00 pm

Dragonstar will need 2 insignias, one Nord style and the other Redguard. Elinhir is entirely under Redguard control, though the lands around (especially north east) it are disputed. the PGE contradicts itself with Elinhir, saying that it has "feeble resistance" in the skyrim section and later going on to say that it has a hardcore redguard traditionalist leader in the Hammerfell section. hence i sort of consolidated the two.

that quote, btw, is wrong. here is how it goes:

Resistance by the Bretons and the Redguards is feeble in the cities of Jehenna and Elinhir, and more active in the border zones of the countryside. The city-state of Dragonstar continues to be divided into western and eastern sections, walled off from one another, each with its own government, and each with an atmosphere of mistrust and fear.

im loving the squid lud, maybe for Gilane? or even Taneth (in which case i would place a diamond somewhere for imperial symbolism)

Gustav · Post by **Gustav** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:21 pm

So building on Lud's genius idea of a octopus and Lady N's diamond idea I've come up with this:

[url=http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tanethidea.jpg][img]http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8455/tanethidea.th.jpg[/img][/url]

I've also thought of putting a shape, like an oval or circle around the emblem/logo/whatever as this seems to be common practice for many imperial based settlements, as in Bruma:

[url=http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=115pxfbrumajpg.jpg][img]http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8905/115pxfbrumajpg.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Well - hope it helpsssh =D

Myzel · Post by **Myzel** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 am

The octopus looks brilliant, even though it has 10 arms XD
Don't let the imperial examples lead you though. Ours have to look different.

Gustav · Post by **Gustav** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:01 pm

Ahhhh...Bugger...I swear I counted them!! Haha, thanks for pointing that out, silly me =E

Oh and about the Imperial example, seeing as Taneth is in southern Hammerfell and close the border with Cyrodiil would it not make sense to merge the some ideologies, especially as typical Hammerfell ones would be suppressed? Just how I see it atm =P

My mutant octopus is about to go in for surgery btw =O

*EDIT*
And its out, on a little bit of morphine, but otherwise feeling alright...
[url=http://img197.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tanethidea8bloodytentac.jpg][img]http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/607/tanethidea8bloodytentac.th.jpg[/img][/url]