Dres Exterior Architecture

[Sload]

Concept

Dres architecture bares a strong resemblance to Velothi, both to suggest the atavistic nature of Dres culture and to convenience modders in replacing current Velothi cities with Dres ones. It follows specifically the [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/gallery/mw_TAoM_p20.jpg]original concept art for Vivec[/url], with a preponderance for building-covered cantons, rather than the monolithic and internally centered cantons of the Vivec that appeared in Morrowind.

At the same time, it is distinct from Velothi because of its more intimidating nature. The color pallet is darker, it features greater altitude; generally speaking, it creatures an unwelcome atmosphere.

Design I - Modular Buildings

Dres architecture, as drawn by Turelio, can easily be made modular in many of its aspects. Though certain buildings, like guard towers, are single models, general buildings are made up of multiple pieces. For reference, [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3639/dreshousinglineup1copypi7.jpg]see this image.[/url]

The main building has two meshes, the first floor and the second floor. There will be a single "first floor mesh" for each footprint (2x3/3x4, 2x2/3x3, L-shaped, possibly also T-shaped, so on). It consists of a blank first floor mesh, as seen in image 8 in the above-linked line up, without the windows or doors. The second floor will have multiple meshes, giving the building its modularity:

Some will look like the second floor in 3, 6, 8, and 9. A mesh will be made choosing one of the "second floor with a top" meshes shown in 1, 2, 5, and 7. The image numbered 4 is unwise, taking the concept to a level that seems inappropriate. However, other possibilities include a simple roof, creating a single floor building, a building with a balcony on its second floor, similar to 4 but without the extra floor, and anything else a modeler or concept artist could think of.

Similar things would be done with each footprint a single (probably) first floor, with multiple second floors. The possible variations should be apparent to all readers.

Additional details would be modular in the same way that they are in original sets: windows and doors are a prominent example. for the Dres set, an appropriate number of corners will be made, allowing for the corner variety of the pictures in the line up.

Design II - Unique Buildings

As I said, though, there will be unique buildings. The [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/5272/twodrestowers1copyhw4.jpg]guard tower[/url] springs instantly to mind, as does Turelio's [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/9748/drescouncilhouse1.jpg]council hall.[/url] What other buildings come to mind as possibly unique buildings?

It is as yet undetermined if upper class buildings will be similarly modular or if they will each be unique buildings. There are probably so few of them needed that they can be made unique. Turelio provided a basic example of an [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/1353/richhouseconcept1c.jpg]upper class home[/url], but its roof is somewhat odd and too different from the regular buildings. The decorative band should definitely be included, as should some sort of unique, more ornate, corner mesh.

Design III - Cantons

Basic cantons can be modular in the same way that homes are. There would be a bottom level, then a variety of second levels to accommodate the different cantons that exist. Certain parts of the canton could be additionally modular to make room for bridges or to not have bridges.

Cantons of unique varieties should be planned from the get-go for where exactly they go and what exactly they do. Non-basic cantons will probably not be used more than once.

Design IV - Additional pieces

There's still more to Dres, of course. [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8964/dresslavewall1.jpg]Walls[/url] are an important aspect of the design, as are [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/4945/dresancestralpylon1.jpg]pylons[/url], which the Dres still have, unlike every other house who gave up their souls to the Tribunal. When the player is chased by the guards in a Dres city, ancestor ghosts should rise up to assist those guards.

Turelio also suggests [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8272/tearconcept1.jpg]images painted on the walls[/url] could be made modular by making them similar to moss; when gridsnapped, they will appear to be a part of the texture, but are actually a separate mesh just a tiny bit above the surface.

Other things needed include strider ports and docks. What else?

What now?: Functional Art and Color scheme

What's needed now is primarily functional artwork that can be made into a model. Its my understanding that TF| has requested something of this nature. A determination also must be made on the color scheme (now between "dark grays and browns" and "dark grays and blues").

Further, conversation must be made and consensus must be reached about anything not already covered in this post. Thoughts should be shared, once this is done a modified copy will be posted in Concept Art to solicit a complete set of functional artwork. So please, DISCUSS.

All Turelio Images

[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3639/dreshousinglineup1copypi7.jpg]Building Line-Up[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/7979/drescantonlineup1copyav7.jpg]Canton Line-Up (Large Cantons 1 and 2, Inverted Canton, Pyramid Canton)[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/9748/drescouncilhouse1.jpg]Council Hall[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8040/drescanton1.jpg]Miniature Canton 1[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8708/drescanton2.jpg]Minature Canton 2[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/5272/twodrestowers1copyhw4.jpg]Guard Tower[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/4945/dresancestralpylon1.jpg]Pylon[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/1353/richhouseconcept1c.jpg]Upper-Class Building w/ color scheme[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8964/dresslavewall1.jpg]Wall[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8272/tearconcept1.jpg]Wall Art 1[/url]
[url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/8195/dresdominion1show25.jpg]Wall Art 2[/url]

[Theo]

I believe some concept for bridges, stairs, gates and arches should also be made.

[Myzel]

I've already made a few functional sketches, but they're not very coherent. But the set is indeed easy to make modular.

I don't think we should have elaborate artwork on exterior walls. It could look nice in interiors, but for exteriors such things just don't fit with the shape of the architecture.

I'm convinced that the color scheme should be close to that house Turelio colored. So greys and browns, maybe with a faint pinch of red.

I have doubts about the functionality of making this into an FCG. People will then pick and choose what they like, which may result in an incoherent set. Unless we enforce complete obedience to Turelio's designs which is not something I want to do. Ideally we could get a few artists to work closely together, but each on seperate parts of the set. This way at least each part will be completely coherent.

Edit:
I’ve given it more thought now. Your separation of the set in four parts is good. Adding some ideas here.

unique buildings.
Is a new temple piece needed? The velothi ones certainly don’t fit with this set unfortunately.
We must also think of the saltrice plantations and the slave-pens of Tear.
Upper class: The buildings on top of the cantons should obviously be upper class. Aside from that, the modular buildings of ‘Design I’ don’t look very poor to me. They could very well be upper class. Lower class should be distinguished by less architectural decoration and duller colors. They should be single story houses or multiple story buildings with several apartments.

Cantons
I like canton 1 and 3, as well as the ‘miniature cantons.’ It’s fine to make them modular, but I’m not sure if it’s necessary. The cantons should really not be used in more than two or three cities. The very tall buildings on top of the cantons can of course be modular, so that they can be used separately in other towns as well. They have a shape very different from the modular house.

Additional pieces:
- Pylons
- Architectural pillars
- walls
- ports and docks
- bridges
- stairs
- gates
- arches
- banners and perhaps new shop-sign flag things. Or the same ones in a different color.

Another concern I have is to have some pieces to stick between the buildings. If we want narrow and tightly packed streets, which helps give an imposing and unwelcoming atmosphere, the trapezoid shape of the buildings causes possibly awkward gaps between each house, especially if the walls have a very low angle.

[Sload]

We find ourselves at the awkward union of concept art and CS modding. Historically, concept art has been somewhat detached from what is actually within the game, as it should be, but for functional art, we need drawing of exactly the models that are needed to make the cities in-game. This will require the expertise of concept artists obviously, but also the knowledge of CS modders who know how cities are put together.

I just want to apologize in advance if I seem at all rude in a sense.

I believe some concept for bridges, stairs, gates and arches should also be made.

yes

I'm convinced that the color scheme should be close to that house Turelio colored. So greys and browns, maybe with a faint pinch of red.

For what its worth, I worked on Turelio about color scheme, and we weren't decided on exactly what to do, though we narrowed it down to grays and blues or grays and browns. I agree though, grays and browns.

I have doubts about the functionality of making this into an FCG. People will then pick and choose what they like, which may result in an incoherent set. Unless we enforce complete obedience to Turelio's designs which is not something I want to do. Ideally we could get a few artists to work closely together, but each on seperate parts of the set. This way at least each part will be completely coherent.

I agree that an FCG would be a bad idea because it isn't organized properly, but the only way to organize it properly is to demand "complete obedience" to Turelio's designs. A request is made for a 2x3 ground floor like building 9, and the corners from buildings 8, 6, and 5, and the second floor like buildings 2 and 9, and so on. Many of these are things that would require very little artistic ability; I could probably draw them decently with a ruler and a pencil.

For things requiring more creative functionals, like the guard tower, the council hall, windows and doors, or even things that havent been drawn yet, a single person or a small group of persons, chosen from the group who have contributed these functionals, will be chosen to draw them. How else would you propose to discover the group to draw the functions, which must be both interested and capable?

Is a new temple piece needed? The velothi ones certainly don’t fit with this set unfortunately.

A difficult question. In the original game, the temple fit into both the Hlaalu and Redoran sets, and the Telvanni did not have Temples. I believe we used Velothi temples in many Indoril cities. If not, Dres definitely needs a Temple, but even if we did, I think it would be a good idea to get them a new one anyway. It'll stand out that its different either way, and I think it stands out in a better way if its a new model.

We must also think of the saltrice plantations and the slave-pens of Tear.

Saltrice plantations will probably need very few models not needed by cities, but I have thoughts on the slave pens in Tear that are too specific for this broad discussion.

Upper class: The buildings on top of the cantons should obviously be upper class. Aside from that, the modular buildings of ‘Design I’ don’t look very poor to me. They could very well be upper class. Lower class should be distinguished by less architectural decoration and duller colors. They should be single story houses or multiple story buildings with several apartments.

Morrowind is not like Oblivion, it really doesnt have any concept of a middle class, so lower class should be read to include the middle class within it. In fact, there are no specifically upper or lower class buildings in Morrowind's original sets, though its obvious that some Hlaalu buildings are fancier than others, and the large Redoran pieces are clearly intended for the upper class.

Upperclass in Morrowind is a byword for manors and house buildings. In other words, you shouldn't be looking for lower class to look poor, you should looking for upper class to look rich.

Cantons

The way this will probably be done will be the cantons will have open space roofs on which normal buildings will be arranged.

Another concern I have is to have some pieces to stick between the buildings. If we want narrow and tightly packed streets, which helps give an imposing and unwelcoming atmosphere, the trapezoid shape of the buildings causes possibly awkward gaps between each house, especially if the walls have a very low angle.

Indeed. I think the walls should have a high angle, but the point still stands and I've thought about before. If walls are not especially ornate, they can be used for this purpose.

[Myzel]

... but the only way to organize it properly is to demand "complete obedience" to Turelio's designs. A request is made for a 2x3 ground floor like building 9, and the corners from buildings 8, 6, and 5, and the second floor like buildings 2 and 9, and so on. Many of these are things that would require very little artistic ability; I could probably draw them decently with a ruler and a pencil.

That's exactly why I have problems with that. Functionalizing someone elses design is terribly unrewarding work for a concept artist, especially if we ask exact dimensions and shape leaving no room whatsoever for artistic freedom. I might find someone to do it or I'll just do it myself, but that doesn't change the fact that it'll be an awful chore. You're right, this union is pretty awkward.

For things requiring more creative functionals, like the guard tower, the council hall, windows and doors, or even things that havent been drawn yet, a single person or a small group of persons, chosen from the group who have contributed these functionals, will be chosen to draw them. How else would you propose to discover the group to draw the functions, which must be both interested and capable?

Actually, an FCG might just work for these, since they are individual designs and we have Turelio's example to follow. Otherwise, I'll jus ask around among artists that might be interested. Things are kinda quiet now though, with most artists being busy with their lives.

Upperclass in Morrowind is a byword for manors and house buildings. In other words, you shouldn't be looking for lower class to look poor, you should looking for upper class to look rich.

Well, how about a few non modular manor designs? It beats drawing functionals for another whole host of modular pieces.

...the cantons will have open space roofs on which normal buildings will be arranged.

Yes. We will do have to remember to ask for functionals of the tall buildings.

[Haplo]

We must also think of the saltrice plantations and the slave-pens of Tear.

I can try to search for the terraced hills that greybeard modeled for me, to be used in Map 6, years ago. They might still be usable.

[Sload]

That's exactly why I have problems with that. Functionalizing someone elses design is terribly unrewarding work for a concept artist, especially if we ask exact dimensions and shape leaving no room whatsoever for artistic freedom. I might find someone to do it or I'll just do it myself, but that doesn't change the fact that it'll be an awful chore. You're right, this union is pretty awkward.

I don't really care if its fun or not. It's what's needed.

Yes. We will do have to remember to ask for functionals of the tall buildings.

Though he features many non-descript buildings, some of which are larger than others, any building more than 2 floors tall is going to be the sort of building that should be done in Upper Class.

I agree, by the way, 6-12 UC building non-modular is probably better.

[Sload]

if no one disagrees with these contentions im going to go ahead and move on to the next stage

Everything in the original post is true.

The functional art should feature walls with a slightly sleeper slope than the [url=http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/3639/dreshousinglineup1copypi7.jpg]building line-up[/url].

Upper Class buildings will not be modular.

The Dres color scheme will be dark grays and browns.

Normal buildings and cantons will be mildly modular.

The Dres will have their own temple.

[Haplo]

I dunno, those walls like quite steep to me; any steeper and they'll just be normal vertical walls.

[blackbird]

if no one disagrees with these contentions im going to go ahead and move on to the next stage

Upper Class buildings will not be modular.

I don't know if i'm allowed to discuss in this thread.
My suggestion is 2 interior pieces: 1 with a basement connection and one without basement connection. The basement could be one model, or a modular set. It's similar with the redoran interior models.

The Dres color scheme will be dark grays and browns.
The Dres will have their own temple.

I don't think it the dres buildings with the suggested colors will fit with a velothi temple (just like indoril/Mh buildings and velothi temple), but perhaps it's good to check it out by using retextured velothi builings (retextured with dres colors) or maybe a good drawing with the correct color shemes.

[Adanorcil]

I don't think it the dres buildings with the suggested colors will fit with a velothi temple (just like indoril/Mh buildings and velothi temple)

The Dres will have their own temple.

Emphasis mine.

[Sload]

You're allowed to post if you read.

I don't know if i'm allowed to discuss in this thread.
My suggestion is 2 interior pieces: 1 with a basement connection and one without basement connection. The basement could be one model, or a modular set. It's similar with the redoran interior models.

Dres Exterior Architecture

Emphasis mine.

[blackbird]

I'm sorry but when i read, I wasn't thinking about exterior buildings. IIRC there are a few modular buildings in MW.

[blackbird]

I could have made a new thread for itn but I thought I would do better to ask a question concerning the Dres here. My question is: What kind of tranpsortation methods do the Dres use?
I'm pretty sure that they use silt striders. However, a silt strider port needs to be made. The most used silt strider ports is has a velothi textures and can't be used in the dres cities.
I don't know what are going to use for water based travel and transportation. We could use the boats, but also riverstriders or maybe something else. We don't need to create the docks, as we can use the vanilla docks.
Most of you guys are familiar with the comic book "the origins of Cyrus". The settings of this story happended in the 2nd era. I know this comic is more suited for Hammerfell, but it's also useful for Morrowind. Cyrus and his mates visit a Dres plantation (or something like that), fight with the dunmer and free the slaves. We can see a giant wasp appear during this fight. http://www.imperial-library.info/rgbooks/page.shtml?15 and http://www.imperial-library.info/rgbooks/page.shtml?18. My question is: are those wasps going to be a transportation method or not? Will such wasp transport the player/char from place A to place B? If those wasps are included, a concept for a landing platform could be drawed (unless they land on the roofs and the suurounding lands or an empty space in a town).

[Sload]

what are you talking about? the hlaalu and the redoran have their own siltstrider ports, of course the dres are going to have them. as explicitly stated in the comic, that is a dres slave trading camp, and the creatures there are sky renders, which we have models of. The Dres use siltstriders like everyone else.

[blackbird]

the hlaalu and the redoran have their own siltstrider ports, of course the dres are going to have them.

Guess that issue is solved. I was suggesting that we could use the sky renders also for tranportion.

as explicitly stated in the comic, that is a dres slave trading camp, and the creatures there are sky renders, which we have models of.

I have learned something new today. I'm sorry but I don't know all the creatues. I thought all the creatures were featured at map 1. Those sky renders look like giant wasps.

Before I forget: http://www.imperial-library.info/rgbooks/page.shtml?14.
I see some shells of dead hollowed out insects. Did the dres lived in there en do they still live in such homes?

[Sload]

There's a reason I sounded terse: it has been suggested several times that the because the Dres at that slaver camp are living in bugshells, all Dres must live in bugshells. Because that is a temporary slaver camp and not indicative of actual Dres society, it has no relevance to Dres architecture.

[Haplo]

It is late in the game but here is a package of Dres Architecture, if it helps or if it ends up being just for shits & giggles.

[blackbird]

There's a reason I sounded terse: it has been suggested several times that the because the Dres at that slaver camp are living in bugshells, all Dres must live in bugshells. Because that is a temporary slaver camp and not indicative of actual Dres society, it has no relevance to Dres architecture.

Those bugshells could be used for an isolated Dres (nomad).
We can't put such shells in a city. It wouldn't fit. We can't create a city with those shells. Maybe even a small settlement, but not more.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Cire doesn't want to make the full set. I want to see the dres set done. I think that we could speed up this process if we made claims for parts of the set. What needs to be decided and figured out before those claims can be made are:
1: What all do we need overall. (this should already exist)
2: What has cire already done
3: What, if anything, does cire still want to do
4: What still needs to be done.
5: How do we split up what needs to be done.

Claims could be made for 2 and 3 as soon as we figure out what they are. 4 could perhaps be listed somewhere for interested parties to select from for claims to be made.

Cire, what have you done, and what do you want?

[cire992]

What I have done is about 18 or so regular buildings, 2 1/2 cantons, a tower and a pylon. I have no idea what the significance of these buildings are. I basically look at Tur's pictures and model what I see there.

< cire992|brb> Once you get the gist of what elements are in the buildings
< cire992|brb> you just make stuff.
< cire992|brb> You conform to the morrowind grid measurements
< cire992|brb> and cool stuff just happens.

There are 3 more cantons to be made.
Some doors/jambs
some windows
A couple towers
some big canton buildings
bridges
maybe some sort of wall

Haven't thought much about embellishments, much less interiors. To be honest, I'm barely putting any effort in to the Dres set at all. You guys are out of your minds if you think I can/will do all this myself.

[img]http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/cire992/maya2010-02-2415-37-36-90.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/cire992/maya2010-02-2415-36-27-18.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/cire992/maya2010-02-2318-08-59-53.jpg[/img][/img]

[Tyrion]

hot damn

[Thrignar Fraxix]

no one needs to worry about the interior set right now beyond the fact that they need to be possible to make. (which you are doing fine)

Something cire forgot is that we need a strider port as well.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

I'm going to try to reach Cire via steam in an effort to at least get him to upload his files.

Lets get this up and running again, we still need a dres set!

[cire992]

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?twyt4zhnzw4

Here are the files in Filmbox format. Most, if not all 3d packages can read and import .fbx.

Good luck, Nalin!

[Adanorcil]

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?twyt4zhnzw4

Here are the files in Filmbox format. Most, if not all 3d packages can read and import .fbx.

Good luck, Nalin!

Could you maybe not put them in .obj or .3ds? Those are formats that any 3D software, as far as I'm aware of, can import. I can't even seem to find an Blender importer for .fbx.

[Nalin]

I already PM'ed Cire and requested these in either .obj or .nif and that was long before he uploaded these. I could look into a 3ds max trial version though as last time we were waiting on him it took about a month for him to get back and I'd really like to get going on these.


Edit: found an .fbx converter here;

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112&id=13711216

Chocks away.

[Myzel]

Still trying to motivate myself to whip up some manor concepts. It would be nice to see a list of screenshots of all the models we have (once we actually have them).

[Nalin]

It would be nice to see a list of screenshots of all the models we have

That will really help as far as concepting embellishments goes (doors, windows, lanterns banners etc.) as we didn't have decent enough images of each building before to get a proper feel for them.

I'll make sure with have front, side and isometric views of each building cire made and then we can draw directly over those images which should speed up the progress no end.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

Update please?

[Nanu]

I've got a friend that needs to increase the size of his portfolio. He's very proficient at pumping out stuff at a MW-level of detail. If I could get a list of stuff we do and don't need along with a file containing what we have, I could pass it along. There's no need to make one person do everything. :p

[Thrignar Fraxix]

A list such as that would be helpful to me as well as I have a friend who would like to model things.

[Nalin]

We still don't have finalised concepts for the dres set - nothing has been officially decided upon so I was figuring all I'd be doing with his stuff is "printscreening" it and posting thumbnails as to document what we have so far.

Then it's upto the CA dept to sort out how we want the dres set to look properly rather than having models that were quickly whipped up before we know which direction we are taking them.

Cire basically made lots of the same building (more or less) with a few slight differences here and there. Rather than having a new file for each building he, for some reason that I still haven't managed to figure out, decided to put them all in one file and made them all very tiny. I feel like I'm in legoland whenever I open the file.

Taking these models, UV mapping and texturing them (with undecided colours and textures) would be a waste of time. I haven't got around to "documenting" this stuff yet due to the fact that *mumbles something*

[Haplo]

As I posted in IRC:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9466/asdfld.jpg
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9428/asdf2l.jpg

[Thrignar Fraxix]

It has been officially decided that Turelio's art evoked the feel that we want. We don't have any functional sketches since Cire said he didn't want them. Do you want them? He seemed to suggest they were absolutely worthless.

What do you need, or need to know?

[Adanorcil]

Cire basically made lots of the same building (more or less) with a few slight differences here and there. Rather than having a new file for each building he, for some reason that I still haven't managed to figure out, decided to put them all in one file and made them all very tiny. I feel like I'm in legoland whenever I open the file.

You do realize all that is a matter of translation and scaling, right? Which takes three keys in Blender.

[Nalin]

You do realize all that is a matter of translation and scaling, right? Which takes three keys in Blender.

Scaling, you say? [/sarcasm]

I have some free time tomorrow, I'll see what I can do with what we have to work with. It could very well mean that I end up re-doing Cire's stuff my way for ease of workflow but at least something will be happening with it rather than it stagnating longer. Working with someone else's stuff can be a bit of a pain so that's why I've been pushing this stuff to the back of the queue.

[Myzel]

So how is it coming along Nalin? Have you gotten around to working on it?
If you have, please keep us updated with a list so we can see what still needs work and how close we're coming to a usable set.

[Nalin]

I've been really busy with real life so I haven't really had a chance to get going on this unfortunately. It isn't forgotten though.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

I would very much like to know what is going on with this. Also, perhaps the actual claim for this could be moved from design to unclaimed to claimed so there can be an actual claim for this important task.