Influences on Tamriel

[Dinmenel]

So, you can produce as good or better additional material in the spirit of the original game by using the content of the original game as a model - clearly shown by the work TR has done already. But how much new material can you generate based solely on what Bethesda has put out there before you start to deviate from the game's spirit? Quite a bit, I'd say, considering that there are now quite a few games in the series, consequently a great quantity of lore, and thus a good bit to work with.

But anyway, enough rambling. It seems to me that the way to produce content deeply rooted in the game's intended spirit is to not only immerse oneself in Beth's material but also in whatever influenced the creation of that material. So here's the question, just as a modder who likes his mods to fit seamlessly into the game: is there a centralized list of Beth's influences, be they literature (say, science fiction novels? Dune, anyone?), history, or mythology? Or anything resembling that? If not, anyone have an inkling what sort of things have influenced TES?

[MSam]

Bah, I know there's a huge things that influence the series but nothing is coming to mind at the moment. The Imperial Race is based on Romans (with the empire, and their names)...

Yeah, that's all I can think of. Boo.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

There are far too many influences to list, which is part of what makes it as good as it is. You can't just say it references one or two things. It has so many unique things, and pulls little bits from so many place that you'd do it a disservice to compare it to anything else.

[Dinmenel]

Nah, I don't think it is a disservice. It's not comparison, really, more identification of the resurfacing of elements. See, I've just been researching the mythologies of different cultures (Nordic, Chinese, some Celtic/Gaelic to date) and as I've done so I've noticed that a lot of the elements from those ancient mythologies show up in modern literature or games. Take lotr, for instance: Tolkien actually did translations of the two documents that comprise most of what is known of Norse mythology, and the archetypes, figures, themes, etc. are clearly visible in his work. The Silmarillion actually very closely follows the format of one of those documents. Does it diminish his work that I know where he got his ideas? Not at all. Another example: there's a chinese document called Shanhaijing, or Guideways of the Mountains and Seas. First mentioned in 80 b.c., probably extant long before the that. It details a great variety of strange creatures, their properties, and the areas in which they live. Where can you see its influence today? Pokemon. In fact, some pokemon are pulled almost directly from this text, or from the influence of this text (Ninetales? Yeah, Nine-tailed fox comes up in Shanhaijing quite a bit.) and I'd actually go so far as to call this document the first pokedex.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the influences of a work form its base, and knowing what those influences are does not diminish the work itself: there is always originality in the compbination of elements. What I would try to do is to immerse myself in the influences of Morrowind and use inspirations from there in my mods, instead of just going off of the actual game content. Think of it this way: when you create something new in a mod, you base it on something already present in the game (if you want it to fit in) and introduce your own originality. This is all good. But, if you could base some particular aspect in your mod from something present in one of Tamriel's influences, tweak that according to what is present in the game already, and then introduce your own originality, you have added a layer of complication that theoretically would allow you to create more original content without deviating from the spirit of the game. I.e., the game is based on those influences, so drawing further from them will fit into the game if done carefully.

[Myzel]

You're saying this as if influences form a structured basis for every work of fiction. On the level of narrative this may be true, because every story has been told before. But that's not the kind of influence you're suggesting. You're suggesting us to find the aesthetic influences and work from there. It's an interesting theory, but I think meets with flaws. For instance, I know for a fact that in many team efforts aesthetic happens quite often by chance. Instead of a structured plan or single influence (as is the case with Tolkien) a vague mishmash of influences or aesthetic descriptions is thrown into the group and each individual interprets that his own way, creating a chaos of ideas that in the end may gain it's own structure. This final aesthetic will often be quite different from it's influences.

Something Michael Kirkbride has said on one of these many TES forums:

At the time, I lived in Huntsville, Alabama, and had a few illustration pieces published in various pen-and-paper products for Chaosium Inc. and Atlas Games, after a set of circumstances that mainly involved being pimped by Brom to his contacts (which nets an earnest "!")...as he, too, grew up in Alabama, was kind and patient and shared a kindred love for The Pixies, and smiled fondly at my drawings from my Dark Sun home campaign, which unabashedly were loveletters to the contours of his lines, his love for bugs and dust, and his inability to render perspective. Okay, so the last wasn't a loveletter, it was a common hurdle, but whatever. Now you know why Morrowind was full of Giant Bugs.

And in the spirit of Modelo-swilled digression...my actual pitch for the aesthetic of Morrowind was "Mad Max crossed with The Dark Crystal crossed with Star Wars. Cuz everything should be crossed with Star Wars."

So here you have some influences for Morrowind. You have Brom, mad max, the dark crystal and star wars. It's a combination that happened somewhat by chance (the bug and dust thing at least) and it's not a combination I directly recognize as Morrowind. Not very useful for further development either, I'd think.

[Adanorcil]

The influences are everything that fits well.

(How does something fit well? - Now don't go making this difficult.)

[Dinmenel]

Good points Myzel. The elements taken from each source of influence don't show up in whole pieces but rather in barely recognizable fragments; originality in recombination. And yes, a work of fiction really grows out of the people who make it, so the influences on those individuals must be considered as well - I just didn't really think that those influences would really be accessible. Likewise, I didn't mean to suggest that a work of fiction ONLY has a few bases of influence and that they all contribute equally and logically. Nope; as we're talking about human creativity here, logic pretty much goes out the window. I couldn't tell you what else influenced Tolkien, aside from maybe Christianity, but absolutely he was influenced by a myriad of factors.

I don't know, maybe you're right, and this idea is bunk. I wasn't saying that to help a mod fit seamlessly into the game with a high level of originality one could consciously go to 'the Influences of Morrowind' and pull directly from there. No, just that if one were aware of what did influence the game, you could ingest those influences yourself (see, I haven't seen the Dark Crystal. So I'mma watch it, but I have no intention of consciously pulling elements from it for any of my mods) let them fracture and get all mixed with everything else in your head, and then just mod normally. The influence would come out.

Anyway, thanks for your input. And the quote. ; )

[Lady Nerevar]

I'm one of those crazy folks that thinks the obvious influences should be avoided. "The Imperials are based on Romans? I'ma base them on the Mexica, just to mess with everything." In other words, think of the general themes of a culture rather than the specifics of how they are interpreted through a real-life lens.

[Haplo]

They stole a lot of stuff from the Dragonlance book series.

[Tyrion]

They stole my brain.

[MSam]

In other words, think of the general themes of a culture rather than the specifics of how they are interpreted through a real-life lens.

Yeah, but it's hard to argue that their naming conventions haven't come from a Roman background, with names such as Caius, Agrippina, Bacola, Maximus, and Pelagius, etc.

But yeah, it's inane to say Bethesda restricted their influences to one certain culture. Anyone can have an Empire, but I just saw some (loose) parallels between the rise and eventual demise of the Roman Empire and what seems to be imminent in the Imperial Empire.

[Lady Nerevar]

The names sound Roman, but that is hardly a defining feature of the Imperials. Witness Attrebus, Nu-Hatta, and Morihatha.

[Jonaman8]

There is 1 person (I know) who really has a Roman name: Calvus Horatius. He comes from a latin text from Livius. The first link is the latin text with dutch translation, the second is the english translation, the third is the complete collection of Livius' work in latin.

http://www.koxkollum.nl/livius/livius001024.htm
http://wildfiregames.com/0ad/page.php?p=1598
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/liv.html

[MSam]

Witness Attrebus, Nu-Hatta, and Morihatha.

They're ridiculously, socially unacceptable names.

Same with Eloe, Clasomo, Boss, Blatta...

Yeah, I'm defeated.