TP108's Showcase

[TP108]

Hello everyone, Newbie here

So, I'm currently working on my first showcase after reading lots of helpful tutorials on this site, but I couldn't find a solution or a clear answer to one particular problem:

how serious does one have to get in terms of floating/bleeding?

I'm asking because I am currently working with bar-pieces, as seen here:

[img]http://i56.tinypic.com/w987wh.jpg[/img]

and I'm trying really hard to make those fit perfectly. Now obviously, for two axes the perfect fit is no problem, since the pieces are of equal height an lenght, so I copied the coordinates of one to the other, no problem there.

however, the last axis, the one which decides how far apart those pieces are, is troubling me. If I select two adjacent pieces and zoom in close, they still either bleed in each other or create a small gap, as seen here:

[img]http://i51.tinypic.com/r09ydh.png[/img]
those are two pieces bleeding, in case you are wondering


so my question basically boils down to this:

are all instances of bleeding, however faint, frowned upon and one is not to rest until you manage to perfectly align two pieces of furniture, or is there a limit reached with the above example, after which you can just leave it as it is, for the difference is definitely not spottable without the help of the selection tool and a lot of zooming?

and, on a related note:

how do you, as a reviewer, spot floating/bleeding objects in a plugin? Is there an easy way to spot those flaws?

and is there an easy option to cope with these, e.g. an "f"-key, but for the x-axis and the y-axis, respectively?

I'd be glad if you could help me out with this, and I hope oening this topic in showcases without actually offering one isn't considered an illegal move here. As I said I'm working on one, though it will still need some time

[Why]

Heya, welcome!

Use gridsnap! It makes your life sooooo much easier. You can set the size of your grid in "my preferences", usually it should be a power of 2, I have it set to 64 or 32. Build your bar, all the pieces should align perfectly. You can then even disable gridsnap, select all the pieces, and drag it around so you can fit it exactly where you want.

Click [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=modding_data/tutorials&section=285513]here[/url] for our interior modding guide, there's a part about using gridsnap. If you have any more questions please do post them here, we'd be happy to help!

On spotting bleeders/floaters, what I do (though I'm not a reviewer) is that I set my camera pan and rotation to very low values, and just zoom in on the object and pan around it. Also sometimes pressing W to check if the wireframes intersect is helpful.

[MSam]

I set my camera pan and rotation to very low values

YOU CAN DO THAT?!?! OH MY DAYZ.

*time waisted incomprehensible...brain explosion*

ETA: For making bars, I slap grid snap on, then put one of them on the ground ground - then copy n paste the floor value to the others.

[TP108]

Wow, thanks a lot, you guys. Just tested building the bar with a very low gridsnap-value and it worked like a charm:

[img]http://i54.tinypic.com/23lb5hc.png[/img]
closeup of two selected adjacent barpieces - both selection-lines occupy the same space - it's a perfect fit!

also great tip with the camera pan and rotation. that makes maneuvering so much easier!

On the other hand, I realized this morning that my interior most likely won't fit any existing exterior, and since that is a requirement for a showcase, my current room is a bit worthless. However, I will still continue working on it because a) I really like it and b) I can use it as a playground for all sorts of experiments, getting accoustomed to different styles and even mixing them (I know, not allowed here, but all practice is good practise I guess ).
Also I can ask questions I encounter while making this room, and I can then use everything I learned from that for making a real showcase after that.

Aside from that, I still would like an answer to my question regarding floating and bleeding: how serious do you have to get? I see now that there are ways to make a perfect fit in most cases, however, my guess is that there are objects that are really difficult to place, so are there special rules for those?

For example, leaning a broom against a wall:
is it required that it precisely touches the wall without bleeding nor floating? Or is it enough when the broom is leaning really, really close to the wall, so that you can only spot the gap / bleed by looking at it with an electron microscope in the editor?

And I also did read about the fact that an object is perfectly aligned with the surface it is standing on, when all, two opposite, or three selecton-lines around it become dotted (with some exceptions). However, I have never seen such a dotted line, even though I'm really sure my objects on a completely flat surface are correctly placed. I have noticed, however, that if you pan an rotate the camera, some selection lines around objects become distorted, because of the viewing angle, in such a way that they appear to have gaps in them. Are those that mysterious "dotted lines" that I'm looking for?

As you can see, I'm really paranoid about floaters and bleeders, so any help regarding spotting and fixing them would be great. I know about rotating, so don't worry with that, but if you could offer any tips on how you can check an object for correct placement in such a way that you actually know with some sort of proof that it is correctly placed, I would be really greatful. Because as I see it now, it seems to involve a lot of tweaking and more or less guessing to place an object on an uneven surface, without really knowing for sure when you have hit the spot.

[Why]

I'd ignore the dotted lines advice. It works, most of the time, but for some objects the selection box doesn't match the mesh perfectly, so you'd still be left with floaters and bleeders. Just looking at the item/object and whatever it's standing on yields better results, imo.

You can also adjust the speed and precision with which you move objects in the My Preferences window, which is helpful when dealing with floaters and bleeders. All I can really say about those is that, if it looks good, it is good. I wouldn't worry about microscopic errors, as long as the broom looks to be leaning against the wall, well, it's leaning against the wall. That's not to say you shouldn't try to fix these errors, but if you feel you can't get it any better unless you spend an outrageous amount of time moving things nanometers, don't bother.

I myself found, while making my showcase, that many de_p surfaces have slopes that can easily be replicated by rotating stuff, say, 1.7 degrees or something. Any more precision generally isn't necessary. And remember that usually when you place one rotated item on a face of the mesh, you can just copy the rotation values and place something next to it.

[alex25]

A good tip on floaters and bleeders is to press "f". This brings objects down to the nearest surface and will solve your floater/bleeder problem. Looking at the following tutorial will answer your question on aligning objects. [url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?p=modding_data/tutorials&section=285513[/url].

For example, leaning a broom against a wall:
is it required that it precisely touches the wall without bleeding nor floating? Or is it enough when the broom is leaning really, really close to the wall, so that you can only spot the gap / bleed by looking at it with an electron microscope in the editor?

It should look realistic. A slight bleeding is allowed but it is mostly on a case by case basis. Also some objects require slight bleeding (bowls with a pointed bottom).

Also not all vanilla interiors fit their exterior. You can also make a few modifications to your interior and pass it as a basement. So you can post your file when you feel ready. Also don't style-mix. It's a bad habit.

[Scamp]

Why already posted the link to the tutorial.

Also, can recommend using the c and t keys. Along with lower camera zoom values they can be really useful.
Just toy around with the possiblities in the CS. I'm looking forward to seeing your showcase.

[TP108]

Okay, thanks a lot guys, that was excactly what I needed to know.

One more question on containers:

Do they need to be filled with appropriate stuff - some gold in a cash box, some weapons in a chest for a blacksmith's shop - or do you want all the containers to be empty?

[Scamp]

You can of course have some empty ones in your interior, though some vanilla containers with appropriate stuff are always good.

[Why]

Do note that if you want to alter the content of a container you should create a new object, since if you change the content of one type of container, it'll change it for every instance of that containers all through Morrowind. And there's already a lot of different containers with different stuff in them in the game files, so you shouldn't really have to create your own one, just use containers appropriate for your interior.

[TP108]

Thx again you guys, I will do as you tell me.

So okay, once again I come to you with a question, and it's a rather specific one. Just now I just startet cluttering up one bookshelf, and I came across this glove:

[img]http://i53.tinypic.com/23uyafr.png[/img]

Now, I really liked it, but, as you may know, there is a problem with this glove. its shape seems to contradict physics:

[img]http://i52.tinypic.com/rlfgc7.png[/img]

the back and all fingertips of the glove are nicely rested on the shelf, yet the middle part seems to enjoy floating. As such, it looks pretty stupid to me.

So, what would you do, as an experienced modder, if confronted with this problem?

My solution was a bit of a workaround:

[img]http://i55.tinypic.com/raydyp.png[/img]

The coin fitted almost perfectly under the glove, but I still had to lower the glove a bit (0.10), so it might be bleeding slightly now, but at least it doesn't look like made of stone anymore.

[Why]

Very creative solution. I like it.

Generally speaking, if you encounter odd objects like that, don't worry about them, place them as best as possible, and move on. Both your images look perfectly acceptable.

Also remember that "soft" items like that piece of clothing are allowed (and often times supposed) to bleed a little.

[TP108]

thx why

so once again I come back with questions.
first of, I'm basically finished furnishing and cluttering the first floor of my interior, currently it looks like this:

[img]http://i56.tinypic.com/29w5pjd.png[/img]
(please ignore the 2nd floor, I will change that one completely soon)

[img]http://i54.tinypic.com/oqf90z.png[/img]

[img]http://i52.tinypic.com/2rz5gsg.png[/img]

[img]http://i52.tinypic.com/2hfsw8j.png[/img]

I hope that's enough clutter for each shelf, desk, table etc., and believe me, those objects are all placed correctly, I'm 98% sure

However, I have no idea how to illuminate the place. I put some lanterns and candles in there, but only for decoration, so I don't know if they are the correct brightness. I read somewhere that in order to get good lightening, you have to look for a similiar interior in the original morrowind and copy the settings from there. Now how do I do that? Copy the settings from every latern and candle from one interior to the other? Or is there a "general lightening setting" for the whole interior, that I don't know about?

And also another question:
My inerior is intended to be a pawnbroker's shop, so I put a lot of different things in the same shelf, like this:

[img]http://i55.tinypic.com/15zgnic.png[/img]

I did this because I thought, well, if one guy goes to the pawnbroker, and he is, let's say, an alchemist, he might give him some of his equipment and maybe a pair of shoes and a dagger. So the pawnbroker puts all of this stuff in one shelf, because they all belong to the same person, and when the guy comes back with the money, he can have his stuff back, and the pawnbroker doesn't have to look everywhere for it, right?

Well, in the original Morrowind, pawnbrokers don't work like that. Their shelves are always arranged according to the items, not the possible owners. So all dishes go in one place, all clothes in another, and all weapons in a third one. For me that's just wrong, and pawnbroker's shops don't look much different from ordinary merchants. So that's why I tried to spice things up a little and bring a huge variety to the clutter^^

So, yeah, long introduction, short question: Was that wrong of me and should I change it back?

[SamirA]

Its really up to you with how you want to clutter the interior. If your pawn broker has things arrayed this way then that is fine. It's his/her choice. We like to see diversity here an how things are arranged, it makes for interesting interiors. So far I think you are doing quite well, it's hard to really look through and give you a real assessment with only screens but from what I can tell you are on the right track.

[Why]

click World -> interior cell, that's where you set illegal to sleep and light settings. make sure those are similar to vanilla hlaalu buildings

[TP108]

okay, thx guys

I think I might be finished with this at the end of the week, so you can have a closer look then. I just didn't want to upload an unfinished .esp and use up one of my 3 attempts.^^

[Haplo]

I just didn't want to upload an unfinished .esp and use up one of my 3 attempts.^^

Very smart thinking.