Alma Interior Planning

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SamirA
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Alma Interior Planning

Post by SamirA »

I thought I would open this up to a few more minds so that we could get a nice coherent city going that makes sense.

This should make it possible for each of you to see all of our local maps for Alma.
http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS

AlmaLocal1 and AlmaLocal2 two have already had claims made up. These are mostly shops, taverns, and a few homes for the dock workers around the canals as well as some dock/harbor offices. This will probably continue along the waterways.

AlmaLocal3 is the first of the areas that could use some thinking. 6 and 8 on the map have been tabbed for the home of the head priest in the cathedral and a grounds keeper respectively. This area is mostly to be filled with commoner-centric interiors, though there is at least one manor present currently.

The rest of the maps have not had much thought as of the time of this writting. I am working around Alma in a clockwise fashion beginning from the south (6 o'clock ;) ).
All used interior are marked by their claim id's on the maps. Red ND's indicate places without doors, but those have already been discussed. Any x's simply mean that the claim is listed on another local map.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!
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Post by Nemon »

No 4, the octagon shape in this pic http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS#7 - I imagined that to be a theater of sorts, a cultural venue. That is why there's a scene outside of it, for smaller stuff.
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Post by Yeti »

Re-posting idea from Public Feedback thread:
Numenorean wrote: What do you think about a special memorial or shrine for all the Indoril nobles who killed themselves after the treaty with Septim?
("By contrast, many Indoril nobles chose to commit suicide rather than submit to the Empire..." or your backstory about Old Ebonheart in this thread -http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=20749&start=160) ?
I imagine this int should be located near the Indoril Council House.
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Post by SamirA »

Hmm, this could be something, I have a nice location for this as well.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

This is a bit more far out, but I wondered about something marking the spot where Mehrunes Dagon materialised in the city. There could still be some residual liminal damage from the trauma of his arrival, which wouldn't necessarily be visible but could just be a spike in magical energies. This could be symbolically guarded by one soldier from each House, ostensibly to stop anything else coming through the tear but mostly to chase off troublemakers and Dagon cultists. It could also be a site for magical studies by the Mages' Guild, although I think the Temple would take a dim view of this.

This could work as an interior or an exterior feature IMO
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Post by Yeti »

Some further interior ideas:


In-door slave market that focuses on training and then selling skilled household slaves to clean and cook in Almalexia's manor districts.

Commona Tong run drinking/gambling den for the workers and rift-raft that hang out along the waterfront canals in the city's west.

Telvanni enterprise that directs sales of Telvanni Bug Musk throughout the province from the capital. Perhaps have the workers here be Hlaalu merchants contracted by House Telvanni since centuries year old wizards have no time for mundane economics.

Canal-side Skooma den.

Head Office of the Duke of Mournhold District, King Helseth. Kept separate from the Palace in Mournhold for security and convenience. Staffed by Helseth's bureaucrats who handle most of the mundane day-to-day affairs of the Duchy.

Temple run dormitories for pilgrims who have come to Almalexia to petition the living-goddess.

Hall of Street and Canal Cleaners
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Post by Why »

I am very much in favor of a big slave market somewhere.
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Post by Adanorcil »


Last edited by Adanorcil on Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:47 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Post by SamirA »

I see your point Ada and had not thought of it like that. I made the maps so that I would not put interiors where there were interiors already.

Currently we have interiors created and sent to claim for all of the first 4 maps, so those don't necessarily need much thought at this point. This is a fluid situation. The interiors that are currently merged into Alma are the ones whose numbers are the claim ID's and those were not selected by me, but rather accounted for by the exterior building. I would not expect those to change. Certainly there are still a few gargantuan interiors, but it is a much smaller number now.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

Adanorcil wrote: I propose we in fact make this the home of at least four craftsmen guilds, similar to how Vivec had the guilds of potters, glassworkers, brewers and fishmongers. Maybe even make up a few new ones. This would only take a little reworking of the interior. Even so, I think we could easily do away with a couple of interior cells and still have ample room for whatever we want to do with it.
The guilds in Vivec were themed around the patronage of saints. Missing but viable mercantile guilds would be Furnishers and Caravaners (Roris), Chandlers and Clerks (Olms) and Farmers and Laborers (Meris).
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Post by SamirA »

I'm not opposed to that idea, though the right person would need to take up the claim for it to come off.
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Post by Adanorcil »

gro-Dhal wrote:
Adanorcil wrote: I propose we in fact make this the home of at least four craftsmen guilds, similar to how Vivec had the guilds of potters, glassworkers, brewers and fishmongers. Maybe even make up a few new ones. This would only take a little reworking of the interior. Even so, I think we could easily do away with a couple of interior cells and still have ample room for whatever we want to do with it.
The guilds in Vivec were themed around the patronage of saints. Missing but viable mercantile guilds would be Furnishers and Caravaners (Roris), Chandlers and Clerks (Olms) and Farmers and Laborers (Meris).
What he said.

EDIT: Updated previous post up to map 3.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

Adanorcil wrote:
<grodhal> The temple might also attract Ashlanders- I like the idea of a small population living in the city as a sort of underclass
[21:55] <@Adanorcil> Maybe we can dedicate an int to that in the impoverished SW area to that?


To be continued later.
FWIW the temple I was referring to here was a possible Dres-run temple, dedicated to the Ancestors and the Good Daedra.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

I was wrong; there's already a Farmer's & Laborers Hall in Vivec. The saints whose associated professions lack guilds are as follows:

Nerevar: Warriors and Statesmen
Veloth: Outcasts and Spiritual Seekers
Rilms: Pilgrims and Beggars
Roris: Furnishers and Caravaners
Olms: Chandlers and Clerks

The latter two are easily done (a chandler is a candlemaker), but the first three are a little more unconventional. A Beggar's Guild is a bit too Terry Pratchett for my liking, but maybe we could come up with a creative twist?

A Warrior's Hall could, I suppose, be associated with weaponsmithing. Spiritual Seekers is a very vague expression- I was wondering about some equivalent to the Greek sophists, intellectuals and debaters for hire:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist[/url]
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Rather than a beggar's guild, it seems to me that it could be some sort of outreach to the needy performed by pilgrims.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

That's just a charity though, and fundamentally different to the rest of the craftsmen's organisations. Maybe focus on the pilgrim bit instead?
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Post by Adanorcil »

Going to interrupt the brainstorming a bit for some other comments.

1. Samir, in the future, before you create a bunch of interior claims, could you maybe quickly post the content of those interiors in this thread? I reckon the previous batch was probably discussed via IRC, but anyone who didn't happen to be around at the time basically misses out on the entire discussion, which creates the risk of skipping some very good ideas, input or criticism. Not first discussing them here runs contrary to point of this thread.

2. I know it's tempting to just let it slide, but some of the interiors we retained but that are actually in sore need of a rework/rethink need to be discussed.

3. No more manors. Another tempting one when we can't think of anything better. We have enough. If anyone thinks we don't, then at least try to put them somewhere sensible. We're trying to create coherent neighborhoods here. Haphazardly making manors/mansions wherever a big interior is required just reduces everything to an amorphous mass again. If anywhere, they should go near or in the northern quarters.

Families that currently (should) have big houses in Almalexia:

Thalotheran (the ex-Taythionis family)
Sandil

Someone once said that Indoril councilors could have a house in Almalexia even when their main residence is in the country. I propose what we do is make some of these 'no one in particular mansions' the homes of these councilors. Think of it, a couple of locations like that could make fun, if challenging Thieves Guild targets.
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Post by SamirA »

http://i.imgur.com/dli35.jpg

This is where we are at, this is where discussion needs to be.

The currently alloted ints, which were done by those who made the city are:
i3-679 Fighters Guild
i3-210 Apparently some sort of dishmaker/utensil maker
i3-6 Manor with private "theater" inside
i3-611 Poet's Manor
i3-293#3 Brothel
i3-30#5 Alchemy Shop
i3-106 (needs an idea, will be changed)
i3-206 Shop selling chitin stuff (to be redone)

#1 is the Mages Guild.
Last edited by SamirA on Sat Dec 22, 2012 9:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Why »

#2 communal housing for Sandil's (TR_i3-50) servants
#3 has funny doors. Part of me wants to say this is a mine just so we can play with the Old Mournhold ruins under the city, but that'd probably not make a lot of sense. Apart from that the ext looks like a storage facility to me, which is quite boring.
#4 dockworkers' housing?

#5 idk, middle class home?

#6 through #10 can be all manner of Imperial / outlander services and homes.

#11, #12 and #13 can be the entourage of the poet in i3-611. That'd make the entire island the retreat of a bunch of creative people, possibly sponsored by a noble (from another province, if the guy isn't Dunmer), or something. Incidentally the poet (Horatio Gargonath?) can be our master speechcraft trainer and the guy whose speechcraft you need to repair in the Alma MG quest. That'll be fun.

#15 through #19, more modest Imperial / outlander homes and shops. After all this is King's Rise (or something with a better name), by the King's decree a “center for the promotion of Imperial commerce and its refreshing contributions to the economy of the province of Morrowindâ€Â￾.

I don't have too many specific ideas for the imperial businesses.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

#5 Home of the [something] Tong, a small, honorable society who are dedicated to the noble art of water breathing as taught by Vivec. They support themselves by salvaging things from the canals of Almalexia, performing a useful public service at the same time.
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Post by Adanorcil »

#3 has funny doors. Part of me wants to say this is a mine just so we can play with the Old Mournhold ruins under the city, but that'd probably not make a lot of sense. Apart from that the ext looks like a storage facility to me, which is quite boring.
Agreed, though of all the places in town that I figured would be storage, this was high on the list. It's got big, functional, warehouse-looking doors, looking out over the docks. Maybe we can remove a warehouse elsewhere and place it here?

#4 dockworkers' housing?

#5 idk, middle class home?

#6 through #10 can be all manner of Imperial / outlander services and homes.
Fair enough.
#11, #12 and #13 can be the entourage of the poet in i3-611. That'd make the entire island the retreat of a bunch of creative people, possibly sponsored by a noble (from another province, if the guy isn't Dunmer), or something. Incidentally the poet (Horatio Gargonath?) can be our master speechcraft trainer and the guy whose speechcraft you need to repair in the Alma MG quest. That'll be fun.
Ok, so maybe make this entire little island a pastiche on orientalism in the arts. Gargonath, (I'm thinking Imperial, because it fits, but can we still work on the name?)is a decadent Byronesque fop and the central figure of a little commune of poets, artists and general airheads who have taken up residence in Almalexia. They live in this romanticized fantasy of Morrowind as an exotic, cultured land of simple, but noble people and believe that their presence in Almalexia does wonders for their artistic inspiration. The people of Morrowind, of course, think they're a bunch of stuck-up loonies.

#5 Home of the [something] Tong, a small, honorable society who are dedicated to the noble art of water breathing as taught by Vivec. They support themselves by salvaging things from the canals of Almalexia, performing a useful public service at the same time.
Good.


EDIT: This was a discussion I was having with Why earlier. I'd much like to have written this out in a more readable format, but I have to catch a bus in a little while, so I'm afraid the IRC log will have to do. All of the interiors discussed in this are unclaimed at the time of writing.

[19:00] <Adanorcil> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/35517884/TR/almamapupdate.jpg
[19:00] <Adanorcil> ok, here's what I'm looking at
[19:01] <Adanorcil> two groups of buildings we are discussing here
[19:01] <Adanorcil> 1) the three buildings in the cliffside west of the horseshoe area
[19:01] <Adanorcil> 2) two buildings north of the 'madrassa', pink and red here
[19:02] <Adanorcil> 2) is currently scheduled to be a manor and a manor
[19:02] <Adanorcil> despite being on the docks and sitting next to a granary
[19:03] <Adanorcil> meanwhile 1) is all gonna harbor related buildings, namely a "Hall of records", the harbormaster's home and a storehouse
[19:03] <Adanorcil> this storehouse is particularly troublesome, because you can only get there by crossing a couple of bridges and slopes
[19:03] <Adanorcil> which obviously makes no sense at all for a storehouse
[19:04] <Adanorcil> what I'm suggesting is we actually move the administration and/or storehouse to the dock-level buildings north of the madrassa
[19:04] <Adanorcil> where they make a lot more sense
[19:04] <Adanorcil> which leaves us the very nice exteriors in the cliff face for something a lot less mundane
[19:07] <Adanorcil> ok
[19:07] <Adanorcil> then
[19:07] <Adanorcil> you got the interior under the big rock arch, right?
[19:07] <Adanorcil> the one only accessible by boat
[19:08] <Why> yes
[19:08] <Adanorcil> my comments on it
[19:09] <Adanorcil> I was thinking this would actually be an ideal place for a Tong-run gambling den, bar, and general illicit business sort of place. The moss on the exterior does make it look pretty shady. The terrace in front also seems like a prime location for the rowdier, noisier sort of outdoor party.
[19:09] <Adanorcil> For a "Harbor Office", which is in fact an administrative building, it's awfully hard to reach, isn't it? Boats could probably moor there, but anyone else, let alone employees, would somehow have to cross the water just to get there.
[19:09] <Adanorcil> Meanwhile, for a place that isn't too keen on the strict letter of the law, a little isolation seems welcome. Especially if the owners can make an extra drake off a wiry ferryman with a knife in his belt, who can only offer the pleasant alternative of swimming.
[19:09] <Why> yeah, I like that idea
[19:10] <Adanorcil> which in turn leaves the possibility of moving the dock administration to the little square manor in front of the cliffside stuff
[19:10] <Adanorcil> because that's sitting there in the middle of nowhere
[19:11] <Adanorcil> or make that the storehouse from which the harbormaster has an overview of the port
[19:11] <Why> currently houses a manor
[19:11] <Why> can probably be retooled without too much effort
[19:11] <Why> actually this manor thing could just be the harbormaster's home
[19:11] <Adanorcil> exactly
[19:12] <Why> it's a rather nice manor
[19:12] <Adanorcil> and can't we collapse "hall of records" and "administration" in to one?
[19:12] <Why> I'd be fine with just forgetting about them actually
[19:12] <Why> but sure
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Post by SamirA »

Ok Adan i3-9, i3-11, and i3-12 have been put on hold for you since you seem to have some designs on something cool for them and some other ints have been rearranged. The Brewer's Guild will be looked into, though I'm not sure how to best go about the claim since we don't want to destroy the whole thing but rather retool it, so any ideas for the actual description are welcomed before I revoke it for reclaiming by someone new.

My previous post has been edited to reflect some changes.
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Post by Haplo »

I wasn't sure whether to post this in it's own thread or in here, but I decided here since it mostly concerns the Almalexia interior planning methods. Some concerns from IRC:

[12/23/2012 04:49PM] <~Haplo> SamirA, do you think you could start not re-using #s for interiors in Almalexia? It would really help tell things apart. I ask because you have two different images for a single cell, (22, -30), and they both have numbered interiors starting at #1 and going up, so for that cell there are two #1s, two #2s, two #3s etc, and it's very confusing
[12/23/2012 04:49PM] <~Haplo> really there should only be a single #1 for all of Almalexia
[12/23/2012 04:50PM] <~Haplo> at there very least there should not be re-used #s in a single cell. An easy way to avoid that would be to not use multiple screenshots per single cell
[12/23/2012 04:53PM] <~Haplo> it seems like it is more work than necessary as well. the biggest harm though is not being able to see everything in as few windows as possible. I think Adan summed it up a few days ago, in order for him to know anything about the interior situation of almalexia, he had to have ninety different screenshot windows open
[12/23/2012 04:54PM] <~Haplo> there's really no reason for a single cell to reuse the same #s. That's kind of why we implemented the claims system, so that we could apply autonumbered claim IDs to each interior and not have repetition
[12/23/2012 04:55PM] <+Cat> so I'm guessing there is a different set of numbers for each screenshot used?
[12/23/2012 04:55PM] <+Cat> and each claim has a linked screenshot for reference
[12/23/2012 04:56PM] <~Haplo> for example: there's two images of 22,-30. Each image shows a different half of the cell, as far as I can tell. However, both images have a #2 and a #3 (and more) for interiors
[12/23/2012 04:56PM] <~Haplo> so there's two #2s for cell 22,-30
[12/23/2012 04:56PM] <~Haplo> this is exactly the kind of thing the claims system is made to avoid
[12/23/2012 04:57PM] <+Cat> so he should have labelled each interior on the maps with the claim number instead?
[12/23/2012 04:57PM] <~Haplo> well, each # corresponds to a specific local map image hosted on imgur
[12/23/2012 04:57PM] <~Haplo> but the only way to tell those apart is by the last five characters in the URL
[12/23/2012 04:57PM] <~Haplo> and you can't see that URL at all in the short descriptions visible from the forum, only when you visit the thread can you see it
[12/23/2012 04:58PM] <~Haplo> but the cell coordinates are at the beginning of the description
[12/23/2012 04:58PM] <~Haplo> and yes, your suggestion of labeling each interior on the maps with a claim number would've avoided any confusion, I think
[12/23/2012 04:59PM] <~Haplo> it appears now that he has certain numbered sets (a set of 1 through 10, for example) bridging multiple cells, which IMO is also bad juju
[12/23/2012 05:01PM] <~Haplo> I only bring it up now because I haven't been following his procedures for almalexia hardly at all, since I knew TF and Adan and others were playing close attention
[12/23/2012 05:02PM] <~Haplo> but now as I'm doing an interior and trying to make sense of which interiors are nearby, it's quickly become pretty messy to tell anything apart
[12/23/2012 05:02PM] <~Haplo> so hopefully this suggestion can sort things a little

I'd like for this to be addressed for the rest of Almalexia interiors and also for future settlements. In the past, we've always had each screenshot encompass a single cell (not two), which worked pretty well. Additionally, I strongly agree with Cat's idea that, instead of arbitrary numbers being painted on top of the buildings in the image, we should always paste the actual claim numbers (i3-15 or i4-127, for example). This way there can be no confusion as to which claim corresponds to which building. There isn't any reason why we can't do this, as far as I'm aware, since the contents of a claim don't rely on it having a specific claim ID.
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Post by SamirA »

It's not very difficult to follow as is and this will cause more needless work to be done, but it can be if the current style is too much for adequate comprehension. Numbers are used again only on different maps (as in Cat's maps for OE, so its not like this is a new occurence) and never twice on the same map. If an int appears on more than one map it is never numbered. I don't know why this is so hard to follow, but if it must be simplified then it can be.

The problem with using claim ID's on the map is that I don't know what the claim ID will be, due to various reasons stemming from this being a massive redo rather than a clean slate, except in instances that were predetermined. Otherwise I agree this would be a good method to adopt and most likely will be done in the future when thigs are not so convoluted.
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Post by Why »

It's [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12095]this stuff[/url] that's more problematic. I'd suggest we actually post the updated claim description in the thread, too, rather than only in the header, which obviously doesn't display for everyone correctly.

I don't really feel strongly about the maps. I didn't have a problem keeping track of what's what, but I'm one of those people who looks at pretty much all the claims anyway. I suppose a more unified or cell-based system would be easier to keep track of (I know Adan had major trouble keeping up with everything, which is understandable) but there's something to be said for not changing the system halfway through. Proper lists of what is what in this thread should be able to solve a lot of confusion.
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Post by SamirA »

Yes that is a good idea Why. I'll make sure to drop a claim description in the post as well as the header. We really need to figure out our website issues though. There are far too many instances of things simply not working as they are intended and it seems to be a fairly new phenomenon.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Historically, the second we get any remotely plausible candidate for a new webmaster our website decides to shit on us unceasingly.
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Post by SamirA »

The one website doesn't obey any other master!
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Post by Haplo »

The problem is that there are multiple #2s for the same cell. This is unarguably bad. In the future, when it's an NPC claim or a quest claim and the modder is trying to find the thread to match an interior to learn the history or see if there is any important information there, they run the risk of confusion, just like I did. Why risk it when a simple change will prevent all confusion?

Also, as TF mentioned to me on IRC while were chatting about this thread a few days ago, we *do* have a local maps function built into the claims browser:

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/claims.php?mapupload

The above link will let you upload maps. Once uploaded, you can select them from a drop down menu, and they will show up as a hyperlink (visible to all TR Modders, even with the Ashstaar bug) below the Group map and coordinate string.
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Post by Yeti »


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Post by SamirA »

Ok here we go.

New map 22,-28 http://i.imgur.com/1lqY2.png

The interiors here were slotted for Imperial shops/homes by the above discussion with the exception of 90 which is the Mages Guild.

253 is an imperial apothecary (claimed by Cat, I forgot to lock it but should still be on ;) )
254 is an imperial general goods trader and residence
255 is an imperial home

These are in N/A in case someone has other ideas, but they need to be stated soon.

Also, I have i3-9, 11, and 12 waiting on discussion. I pulled them by request, but they need to be sorted soon so that I can get them back into unclaimed.
And that's how you get to Llama School.
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Post by blackbird »

Adanorcil wrote: i3-28 (Brewers Guild): Does anyone agree this building is maybe pointlessly huge? The exterior is considerably larger than Almalexia's largest watchtowers. The interior consists of 5 (!) cells: Guild of Brewers Hostel is an enormous two-story tavern with 14 tables and 58 chairs, with room to spare. Guild of Brewers, Middle Floor is an enormous two-story dining room with two Ikeas worth of furniture in it, with room to spare. Guild of Brewers, Upper Floors is a bunch of rooms with beds in them. Guild of Brewers Hostel Bedrooms is a bunch of rooms with beds in them. Guild of Brewers, Lower Floors is three stories of, well, storage. We're talking 102 barrels, 14 crates and 30 urns here.

This is the sort of stuff we decided to redo Almalexia for. It's one of these interiors that are clearly a result of the person responsible for the interior having absolutely no idea of what to do with all this space.

I really don't think we should go with this interior as it is. Either we make the exterior significantly smaller and cut out a few of the superfluous interior cells, or we repurpose it in some half sensible way. I propose we in fact make this the home of at least four craftsmen guilds, similar to how Vivec had the guilds of potters, glassworkers, brewers and fishmongers. Maybe even make up a few new ones. This would only take a little reworking of the interior. Even so, I think we could easily do away with a couple of interior cells and still have ample room for whatever we want to do with it.
Any decision about this matter yet? Adanorcil's conclusion is correct.
This building is so huge, someone can be (very) creative with this interior.
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Post by SamirA »

No, it is the least of my worries.

I'm open to your ideas, especially if you have eyes for the claim.
And that's how you get to Llama School.
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Post by blackbird »

SamirA wrote:No, it is the least of my worries.

I'm open to your ideas, especially if you have eyes for the claim.
I was curious to know what will happen. I'm not interested in redoing this interior. There are enough skilled modders around.
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Post by SamirA »

New Map 21,-29 http://i.imgur.com/GoIHNk6.png

i3-257 Communal housing for Sandil's servants
i3-256 Shipping warehouse as we have removed a warehouse from earlier to put one here as per Ada's suggestion.

I still need the thoughts on i3-9, 11, and 12. I pulled them by request, so they need to have some ideas suggested soon.
And that's how you get to Llama School.
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Post by SamirA »

New Map 21,-28 http://i.imgur.com/9fcobmP.png

i3-258 Outlander Housing
i3-260 Dockworker Housing.
i3-261 Home of an eccentric artsy type.
i3-80 Outlander housing.
i3-81 Tavern worker home.
i3-82 Outlander home.
i3-83 Imperial bookstore.
i3-84 Outlander home.
i3-85 Outlander home.
i3-87 Imperial General Goods Trader.

I still need the thoughts on i3-9, 11, and 12. I pulled them by request, so they need to have some ideas suggested soon.
And that's how you get to Llama School.
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Post by Nemon »

How many of the buildings/interiors lack a designated claim now?
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Post by SamirA »

A good number, I've been busy since my last update with school. I've got a fair number of the maps done up now, just need to decide what to do with what.
And that's how you get to Llama School.
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Post by Jule »

Do we have a sculptor's workshop? All those statues (and private shrines) have to come from somewhere. Could be a good way to efficiently fill up a bigger interior, a tower for example.
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Post by Not »

Jule wrote:Do we have a sculptor's workshop? All those statues (and private shrines) have to come from somewhere. Could be a good way to efficiently fill up a bigger interior, a tower for example.
I second this :D
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