House Redoran Brainstorming

[Sload]

PDFs early in this thread are brainstorming ideas; the final PDF needs to do all of this:

The structure of the final document:

1. General Character.

What is this house like? What impression are we trying to create when we represent this house? What is its in-character history and current function? What unique elements or structures does this house have that other houses don't?

2. Settlement Spaces.

What are settlements from this house like? What is the architecture set & how should it be used in the CS? What buildings do some or all settlements of this house need to have that other settlements don't?

What are the Tier I & II settlements of this faction each like? How are they different from one another? What is their key element that gives them purpose from a game/story perspective?

3. NPCs.

What are the NPCs in this house's territory more likely to be like - including house-kin, non-house dunmer & outlanders? What portion of characters are of each type? What kinds of identities or associations can certain characters associated with this faction-trope or in its settlements be given that others can't?

What are some of the major characters of this faction, or major character-groupings, that will be important to the quest? What are they like?

4. Faction Quest Storyline.

What is this house's storyline? What are the conflicts that drive it? What end goal is it trying to achieve? How does it demonstrate the house's character?

This thread is for discussing House Redoran as a faction. That means both as a group of characters and as a general narrative component. It is not a thread for developing the specific details of the Redoran quest-line or any particular Redoran settlement.

Previous threads that have touched on this topic:
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23201]House Redoran[/url] (4/11 - 9/12)
[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23781]All Things Redoran[/url] (12/12 - 7/13)

I have a structure for the House, which is different in some respects from Why's. I encourage everyone to respond with their own thoughts.

[Jule]

Just wanted to say that I really like your idea about dividing the territory into marches (if only nominally), because it reminds me very much of the Military Frontier of the Habsburg Empire. The idea of having a Lost March is certainly appealing. This could also make the Redoran less uniform (regional differences), but also show just what keeps them together (watching the borders and being the defenders of Morrowind is a vital part of their cultural identity).

[gro-Dhal]

A few thoughts:

-Redoran family names are earned rather than inborn. Young Redoran are nameless and houseless, and acquire their surnames when they reach adulthood. Acquiring the patronage of someone powerful involves taking on their name.

-Most Buoyant Armigers are Redoran, just as most Ordinators are Indoril (or at least this is perceived to be the case).

-The crab is an important symbolic animal, for obvious reasons. Perhaps a social distinction exists between active military 'Scarabs' and non-military 'Crabs'?

[Sload]

A few thoughts:

-Redoran family names are earned rather than inborn. Young Redoran are nameless and houseless, and acquire their surnames when they reach adulthood. Acquiring the patronage of someone powerful involves taking on their name.

-Most Buoyant Armigers are Redoran, just as most Ordinators are Indoril (or at least this is perceived to be the case).

-The crab is an important symbolic animal, for obvious reasons. Perhaps a social distinction exists between active military 'Scarabs' and non-military 'Crabs'?

I like all of the things this is aiming at.

The family name things is good, but it needs to be fleshed out how our representation of blood relations is effected by this. A toned down version (which I don't suggest as a replacement, but possibly something that could lead to a good way to make it work) is of course to just have the Redoran, like the ancient Romans, practice certain kinds of adoption for the purpose of determining family status.

The Buoyant Armigers is like practically vanilla.

I fucked up on not realizing the symbol of Redoran is a skar-crab, not a scarab (the scarab is the symbol of Dagoth, I just couldn't think of how to describe the Redoran symbol). "Scarab-Chief"s are now Crab-Chiefs, I think. I don't think the non-military/military distinction works because the skar is very military; I think its better to take my references to scarabs as a confused outlander mistaking the crab for a scarab.

[gro-Dhal]

The family name things is good, but it needs to be fleshed out how our representation of blood relations is effected by this. A toned down version (which I don't suggest as a replacement, but possibly something that could lead to a good way to make it work) is of course to just have the Redoran, like the ancient Romans, practice certain kinds of adoption for the purpose of determining family status.

Blood ties are of secondary importance. All Redoran parents aspire for their children to take on a name with more prestige than their own. If the child fails to gain a patron, then they will usually be offered their parents' name. If for whatever reason they aren't granted their parents' name (usually for reasons of family breakdown) and they can't find anyone else to lend them their name, then they have the status of pariah in Redoran society.

I think this is perfectly workable and provides an angle for interesting quests.

[Theo]

I would like to ask for your opinions on the importance of duels.

What is their role? Is it a way to settle disputes, or to challenge someone for position? Or both? Who can challenge who, for what reasons and under whose supervision?

There is a possibility to introduce an element of decadence and decline to house Redoran. Young ambitious aristocrats, who have no opportunity or are just not willing to prove themselves in some regular warfare often waste their life in the arena because of some petty insults.

Similar to the 19th century Russian nobility. But again this real world parallel should not be taken too seriously.

Anyway given a general inclination of Redoran, it's decline could also be partly caused by the fact that very few males actually grow old and/or raise children. Becoming an elder should already be a respectable accomplishment in itself.

[Sload]

gro-dahl & theo: I like all of this.

gro-dahl's specifically: So when a character refers to another character as their child, should that imply blood connection or adoption? For example, in my Bodrem claim right now I have two characters who are members of House Redoran. Dalam Ramaran, who is the hetman of Bodrem and a servant of one of the House Fathers in Kartur, and Almse Ramaran, his daughter who is the captain of the guard. Should she be his adoptive daughter? How do we effectively get this concept of kinship across to the player without a bunch of boring exposition dialog? New words for these kinship relationships maybe that we can just drop and explain in the faction book for Redoran?

theo: I don't think I would use the word decadence, but you might not mean what I think of that word as meaning. Duels seem like a good component of Redoran that separates it from other houses (especially from Indoril). I like your last sentence that "Becoming an elder should already be a respectable accomplishment in itself." I think that's the core of the idea with Redoran dueling, that they're all killing each other over honor. I don't think its necessarily being afraid to fight a real war so much as being officially at war but with an enemy you can't fight (House Dagoth).

[Jule]

I don't really think the Redoran are decadent. They're just not adapted to surviving in an imperialistic surrounding, where even their brethren have turned against them, fighting them for every tiny scrap of land and hogging all the trade. In my opinion, the Redoran are the House of War. They are at their best in times of war, not in times of peace. While Hlaalu flourishes from trade during times of peace, the Redoran economy reaches its peak only during times of war.

The duelling idea has to be fleshed out, but one thing is clear: honor has two different meanings for the Redoran and Indoril. For the Redoran, honor is gained very painfully and slowly, while for the Indoril honor is inherited.

[gro-Dhal]

gro-dahl & theo: I like all of this.

gro-dahl's specifically: So when a character refers to another character as their child, should that imply blood connection or adoption? For example, in my Bodrem claim right now I have two characters who are members of House Redoran. Dalam Ramaran, who is the hetman of Bodrem and a servant of one of the House Fathers in Kartur, and Almse Ramaran, his daughter who is the captain of the guard. Should she be his adoptive daughter? How do we effectively get this concept of kinship across to the player without a bunch of boring exposition dialog? New words for these kinship relationships maybe that we can just drop and explain in the faction book for Redoran?

Oath-daughter? The beauty of it all is that it's very rarely something that would come up in-game as an issue, so not much has to change. But we can put it in a book or something if you like (i'm happy to write it).

[Gnomey]

Forgive the long post, but here are what I judged the more important (read almost all) entries of the vanilla "House War" topic. As Redoran is conservative and the "House of War", I think there isn't a House for which the topic is more important:

"The Dunmer Great Houses long ago adopted certain customs and rules to avoid open warfare. House Wars are supervised by the Temple, and private feuds and writs of assassination are contracted through the Morag Tong."
"By the immemorial custom of Dunmer society, a House may challenge the honor of another House in the person of one of the House's ranking nobles. The ranking noble of the impugned House is 'marked for death' -- in ancient times, actually formally marked with a black banner, but in modern times, served with a formal written public announcement. If within a year of the challenge, the marked noble still lives, the challenging House must publicly forego any further complaint or scandal on the matter."
"Only a ranking challenging noble or a Morag Tong may attack the marked noble; in modern times, Houses routinely engage Morag Tong. This custom permits Houses to war upon one another on a small scale without threatening public peace and rule of law. Such violent disputes among Great Houses are called 'House Wars.'"
"Codes of behavior under House Wars of Honor are complex and subtle, and the Morag Tong specialize in the honorable and legal prosecution of these factional vendettas. House Wars are expensive, dangerous, and disruptive to all Houses involved, but on the island of Vvardenfell alone, a dozen or more Marked Challenges are being prosecuted at any time."

My immediate question would be: when did House Wars stop being fought in battles but through duels and assassinations? I'd imagine that House Redoran, and the Houses from which it was formed, has always been very warlike, so what I want to explore is how the current system of House Wars affects them, or rather what impact the change to the current system has had on them.

The very earliest date for the change would probably be the First Council, but I have the impression that, if the Tribunal didn't introduce the measures themselves, they probably formalized them.

Here is one possible timeline, keeping in mind that this is all ancient history:

First, there is constant House warfare, which leaves Morrowind vulnerable to Nordic invasion. The First Council, after all, doesn't only unite Dunmer with Dwemer, but also unites all the warring Houses with each other. The Morag Tong at this time is already respected, but is probably more cult-like, freely contributing to the already existing chaos.
The First Council represents a sort of ceasefire, but doesn't last very long, so it probably doesn't really have a lasting effect on House organization in and of itself. The importance of the First Council probably only truly comes through its historical context: the fact that the First Council was established is significant in and of itself, but it is the fact that the Houses didn't go back to business as usual after the council dissolved that makes it truly significant.
And the ones responsible for keeping things together are probably the Tribunal: while the First Council established a precedent, it is the Tribunal at the head of the Second Council who made it common practice.
To keep the council from dissolving, they formalized House Wars so that they became conflicts between nobles, rather than Houses per se. This may have been intended to discourage warring altogether, as the nobles were expected to be somewhat more restrained if it was their own lives (and thereby their House's leadership) on the line.
At the same time, a less destructive alternative was offered through the Morag Tong. Most Houses opted for this route, to keep their leadership intact, and by doing so, along with giving the Morag Tong a context in the new society, House warfare became completely separate from the general populace.
This is probably what has led to Houses having a somewhat lesser importance in Morrowind, with many Dunmer commoners not being strictly associated with any House, and often associating more with the Temple and Morrowind than their House. It has also allowed Dunmer population and economy to boom, making Morrowind a true force to be reckoned with, while, certainly in the eyes of the Ashlanders, degenerating the Dunmer values.

As to where House Redoran stands in all this, their sense of personal and House honour is too great for them to fully rely on the Morag Tong, along with their general warlike tendencies. So Redoran nobles, who still can fight each other directly, often opt to do so in favour of hiring the Morag Tong, leading to an unstable leadership.
While before, in open warfare, the nobles could gain honour without necessarily putting their life at risk, in duels the likelihood of one or both of the participating nobles dying is naturally very high.
At the same time, the vast Redoran warrior caste has lost its original function. It can no longer take part in House Wars, barring the main route through which Redoran warriors could gain honour for themselves and their family. Due to the lack of casualties through war, the population of the warrior caste has boomed, leading to poverty and overpopulation.
Obviously, that destitute state hasn't just continued for millennia without change. Redoran warriors have joined the Ordinators and especially Bouyant Armigers -- also no doubt the Morag Tong -- in droves. Many probably also become outlaws and mercenaries.
However, those solutions all involve the warriors effectively leaving House Redoran, putting their loyalty in the new faction or occupation.
Bolvyn Venom, however, has managed to bring a lot of Redoran nobles and warriors together for a cause in which they can fight as Redorans without formal restrictions. This is effectively a suicide mission, but at the same time is a desperate attempt to unite the House.

Long story short, the way I see it the Redoran in Vvardenfell are much like an ancient Redoran alliance, Crab-Chiefs and House Chap'thils fighting against a common enemy.
On the mainland, Redoran nobility is either in a process of or has yet to recover from purging itself through duels, both in-House and with those Hlaalu nobles who are too slow to send for the Morag Tong. The best leaders are off in Ald-ruhn.
The commoners are largely poor, and usually gutted of their best warriors who seek to gain honour abroad. Most Redorans would probably not be seen as much better than the Velothi; those who are still members of the House are probably largely farmers, herdsmen and Kwama miners.
I'd imagine that many families, in an attempt to hold on to their former status, rely on the achievements of family members abroad, for example among the Bouyant Armigers, much as many poor real-world families rely on family members abroad for money.

[Jule]

I think every House would benefit from the way House Wars are fought now. Hlaalu obviously because they're not the best of warriors and because infighting hinders trade, Indoril because all-out war is just chaotic, Telvanni because... Well, they're Telvanni, and anything that keeps them from their studies is an annoyance. The benefit for Redoran would be clearly this: yes, they are the militaristic House, yes, they value honor in battle above all, but not against other Dunmer. They are the warriors of the Tribunal faith, the defenders of Morrowind, and if there is to be bloodshed, losing one member of the House in a duel or to a Morag Tong assassin is much more acceptable than losing hundreds of warriors in battles against other Houses, when there are real enemies to be fought: the Empire, the Nords, House Dagoth. Times of peace mean nothing to the Redoran; peace is just the time between wars, and you always have to be prepared for war.

[Gnomey]

I'm not suggesting that Redoran grumble about it either, but what I meant to say is that for the Redoran the change was more profound than for other Houses.

The Redoran appear to have more or less embraced the warlike aspects of Dunmeri culture, while for other Houses warfare was mostly waged on the side: House Indoril, House Dres and House Hlaalu all have strong economies and trade, and appeared to have had them for a long time, while the Redoran have neither. House Telvanni has generally handled its conflicts its own way.
The Redoran can't just fight the Empire or the Nords, and House Dagoth is, as I mentioned, an exception: it became active relatively recently, and is the one example I gave where the Redorans can stand united. Compared to the days of Resdayn, where warfare was common, Morrowind under the Tribunal is really peaceful.
There was the Arnesian War, thirty years before the events of Morrowind, but the most recent conflict before that in which House Redoran was likely called to protect Morrowind appears to have been when Tiber Septim tried to incorporate Morrowind into the Empire, 400 years before that.
Then there are smaller engagements like the Siege of Abernanit, but the Redoran are not mentioned as taking part in it. That sort of thing appears to be the job of the Bouyant Armigers and Ordinators.
Being the defenders of Morrowind is all well and good, but if there is no clear threat to defend against all you can do is sit around. And while sitting around, those one or two members dying in duels are the people who are supposed to lead the Redoran in war. If faced between having a small army with strong leadership and a large army with few to lead it, the small army often comes off as the better choice.

I suppose that the question here would be: what are the Redoran currently doing on the mainland? Bolvyn Venim and company are camping out in Vvardenfell, not really actively fighting the Sixth House but ready to defend against it, but what about the mainland? Until the faction questline kicks off, are they doing anything other than sitting on their thumbs?
My impression of House Redoran is that it is the Dunmeri equivalent of veterans returning from a war and ending up homeless. The war wasn't pretty, but nor is the alternative.

[Sload]

Expanding on the Marches a bit:

The Marches are not strictly defined territories. Dunmeri socio-political structures are not complicated enough to establish clear borders and control everything within them. Each March has an established responsibility - the defense of a particular frontier of Morrowind - which gives them control over a vague area of that frontier. These frontiers were established a very long time ago when Morrowind's geography was different and there was no Inner Sea. Azura's Coast was a mountainous area, the western Inner Sea was just the Thirr River, the mouth of which was proteced by Baan Malur.

The Ashes' March protected the frontier between Morrowind and Skyrim. At the time, Skyrim controlled the Uld Vraech and Solstheim. The border included the passes through the Velothi Mountain - Silgrod, Dunmereth, Gargen - as well as the north shore of Morrowind. So their territory ranged from the Velothi mountains through the Ash Swamp to the Ashlands of Red Mountain - hence the name.

The Stones' March protected the frontier between Cyrodiil and Morrowind from Kragenmoor to Septim's Gate. North of Kragenmoor, this border was closed to outlanders. It was the most direct route from Cyrodiil to the heart of Morrowind, and keeping it closed was key to the defense of Morrowind. It was named the Stones' March after the rocky highlands of Roth Roryn.

The Waters' Marches was a little different from the others in that it was a frontier that was not closed to outlanders, and it cohabited the territory with House Hlaalu. House Hlaalu served as Morrowind's importer/exporter, under the watchful protection of the Waters' Marches. This was a symbiotic relationship between Hlaalu and Redoran until the Armistice. The Waters' March was so named because it protected the western headwaters of the Thirr; if it were unprotected, an invading army taking to water could quickly reach Andaram, the lynchpin of Morrowind, shutting down internal circulation of goods. In Septim's brief and incomplete assault on Morrowind, he chose to assault through the Waters' March. Hlaalu was spared from any assault (which is still a point of contention), but Redoran's homestead of [...] was destroyed. Now, the Waters' March is largely vestigial, controlling Lake Coronathi and charging the Hlaalu and Imperials for the right to pass through it.

[Swiftoak]

You know what would be a cool idea?

The homestead of the Waters March as an explorable dungeon, in the Redoran tileset.[/code]

[immortal_pigs]

Can we have four marches instead of three? Presenting things in trio's is already done everywhere else (3 Vanilla Great Houses, Tribunal, Anticipations, 3 Imperial Guilds, et cetera). For the fourth march I was thinking about a roaming march without a geopolitical seat. It could be a march for the leftover Redoran who can't fit in with a more established march. It would consist of Redoran who were unable to be adopted into an established family. As a possible name I was thinking the "Shadow March".

Also, would it be an idea to refer to the Marches with Dunmer terms. The Imperials might call it the "Water March" or the "Stone March", but it would be cool for role-playing if the Dunmer had their own terminology.

Stone March = Bal Marak
Water March = Ouada Marak
Ash March = Arador Marak
Shadow March = Tear Marak

(Translations were taken from here)
http://casualscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dunmeri_language

**

Random idea - A Redoran nobleman places writs of execution on himself to prove he is untouchable by his rivals.

[Yeti]

Personally, I prefer three marches to four, if only because I think an additional march would over-complicate the situation. I also don't see any reason to partially obscure the meaning of the marches' names with Dunmer terminology. Lately we've been trying to avoid overusing Dunmer names for things in favor of expressive English names.

I like your idea for the Redoran nobleman, His story would have to be written delicately to create believable reasons for him to want to do such a thing.

[Haplo]

I agree with Yeti.

Random idea - A Redoran nobleman places writs of execution on himself to prove he is untouchable by his rivals.

I'm not sure I follow... is it implied that he kills the assassins trying to execute him? Otherwise how would him signing his own death warrant prove his rivals can't touch him?

[Aeven]

I want to know what people consider to be a good interior for the 'big building' in Kogotel. Originally it was going to be a monastery in the old town design, which is obviously not the way to go.

Maybe it's a good idea to incorporate the Ash March idea into it in some way?

[Adanorcil]

The idea of the Redoran is that they are the guardians of Morrowind. For this reason, the three marches represent the various national threats against which the Redoran stand guard. Adding one without that basis breaks the mold and thereby invalidates the meaningfulness of the whole thing. The argument that threes have been done before doesn't hold a lot of water to me, given that any random number between one and ten is bound to pop up everywhere all the time and even so the number is of enormous important to Morrowind.


That said, there's one other, more recent border that it seems to me the Redoran have a vested interested in protecting and this one even has a big honking electric fence right in the middle of their own country. Could Venim be motioning to overhaul centuries of tradition by instituting a new "Ghost March"? Perhaps in return for abandoning the meaningless Waters March (that they're quickly losing to the Hlaalu anyway), which would get him a lot of criticism for his monomania with Vvardenfell?


IP: As far as I can tell, that wikia page is entirely fictitious.

[Sload]

The structure of the final document:

1. General Character.

What is this house like? What impression are we trying to create when we represent this house? What is its in-character history and current function? What unique elements or structures does this house have that other houses don't?

2. Settlement Spaces.

What are settlements from this house like? What is the architecture set & how should it be used in the CS? What buildings do some or all settlements of this house need to have that other settlements don't?

What are the Tier I & II settlements of this faction each like? How are they different from one another? What is their key element that gives them purpose from a game/story perspective?

3. NPCs.

What are the NPCs in this house's territory more likely to be like - including house-kin, non-house dunmer & outlanders? What portion of characters are of each type? What kinds of identities or associations can certain characters associated with this faction-trope or in its settlements be given that others can't?

What are some of the major characters of this faction, or major character-groupings, that will be important to the quest? What are they like?

4. Faction Quest Storyline.

What is this house's storyline? What are the conflicts that drive it? What end goal is it trying to achieve? How does it demonstrate the house's character?

[gro-Dhal]

So the Redoran are the military face of the Dunmer. Their practice of adoption and their military-like organisation makes them the second most meritocratic of the great houses (after the lawless Telvanni). They are riven with competition, but this manifests as a desire among Redoran to outperform one another in pursuit of the defence of hearth and home. This contrasts with the more cutthroat rivalries of most of the other houses. Duels arise not from a desire to murder one's compatriots, but from the fact that it is dishonourable for any Redoran to abdicate their position in favour of another.

The PC achieves success in this faction by excelling at what the Redoran value- defeating external enemies of their house and of the Dunmer people.

[Gnomey]

I feel the most sympathy with House Redoran; they are Dunmer driven by creeds and deeds, like I am.

From [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/true-nobles-code]The True Noble's Code[/url]:

A Redoran noble must know the virtue of gravity. It is not the Redoran way to laugh at serious matters, for it shows disrespect.

House Redoran, like House Indoril, is often portrayed as austere. At the same time, I've heard that a lot of Buoyant Armigers hail from House Redoran, much like the majority of Ordinators hail from House Indoril. (As far as I can see, that is never directly stated in Morrowind, though it is hinted). Buoyant Armigers, as the name implies, are anything but austere.

There is not necessarily a contradiction here: "A Redoran noble must know the virtue of gravity." "It is not the Redoran way to laugh at serious matters, for it shows disrespect."

In other words, perhaps Redorans should be portrayed in a rather more nuanced fashion, at least non-nobles. While driven by duty and honour, they are not without humour and levity, at least when among themselves.

Edit: while I'm at it, on the topic of NPCs:

As mercenaries, House Hlaalu prefers Imperials and Redguards, Redoran prefers Nords and Altmer, and Telvanni prefer Bosmer and Bretons.

Naturally, we don't have to follow this trend unless we want to. I could imagine that Orcs might also be fairly common as mercenaries, as some are supposed to live around the Velothi mountains, I think. Nords could make sense or could not, depending on how we portray Dunmer-Nordic animosity. I have no idea about Altmer; their inclusion seems random.

[gro-Dhal]

The Redoran live in some of the more inhospitable parts of Morrowind, and this is reflected in their architecture- curved structures which don't collected ash or snowfall. The hostile environments they live in represent another enemy that the Redoran battle against, and their settlements have adopted an inward-looking fortress mentality as a consequence.

Redoran settlements are also characterised by their distinctive watchtowers, which symbolise their role as vigilant guardians of the land. Perhaps this vigilance veers into paranoia on occasion.

[klep]

Concerning faction relationships, or NPC reactions towards members of other factions.

In [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=326454#326454]another thread[/url] I started drawing a table to determine faction relationships with other factions, which has changed a few times since the first sketch. The table shows NPC reactions towards members of different factions. The table should be read by finding the source faction on the left hand column, and matching it with a faction from the top row. See the table in the spoiler below.

First of all, in those graphs, I think the vertical columns are really the most important. They show how the opinions of members of factions change upon the player joining a certain faction.
Always remember that faction relations are inherently player-centric. The player will probably never join Her Hands, for instance, so figuring out what other factions would think of Her Hands would mostly be a waste of time. Figuring out what Her Hands thinks (if anything) of other factions is, however, very important.
Truth be told, I think it might be more reasonable to just figure out the vertical columns in the individual faction threads. This would split the task into bite-sized portions, allowing for proper discussion, and it would be rather easy to then go through the faction threads and gather the results.

Per Gnomey’s advice I am now splitting this up through the faction threads. Please discuss in this thread the reactions of other factions towards Great House Redoran to keep things organised.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I think the Redoran part is quite solid, but a reaction from Her Hands could be discussed.

[Gnomey]

Swiftoak's been doing a bit of pioneering work on the Redoran planning document from the sidelines, and if we're going to be further discussing House Redoran I think that's where we should really start. Here's the link, keeping in mind that it's obviously very much a WIP, and hasn't been discussed yet. [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/How_to_Tune_your_Hoom]This book[/url] is also worth keeping in mind.

[Gnomey]

Swiftoak and I have been doing some Redoran brainstorming on Skype lately, and I think it's about time that brainstorming finds its way to the forums. For my part, my opinion on House Redoran has shifted over the last few days, and I'll try to summarize how I now imagine the House later. For the time being, I'm providing an almost complete transcript of my conversations with Swiftoak as well as this link to his Redoran planning document, keeping in mind that both are relatively incoherent at the moment (a fault of the medium in the former case, mostly my fault in the latter case) and both are a work in progress:

[spoiler][1:27:49 AM] Swiftoak: do we still have time to deal with redoran?
[1:27:51 AM] Gnomey: I was a little late as well. :- P
[1:27:56 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[1:28:20 AM] Swiftoak: ok
[1:29:17 AM] Swiftoak: so interested in hearing your ideas on them
[1:29:22 AM] Swiftoak: something I've been hung on is
[1:29:30 AM] Swiftoak: wanting to make them a little different than their vanilla counterpart
[1:29:40 AM] Gnomey: Sure. Frankly, yesterday I sort of changed my opinion of them.
[1:30:06 AM] Gnomey: I originally thought that we should show Redoran in varied harsh environments,
[1:30:29 AM] Gnomey: as, as in the first PGE, it seemed to me like Redoran sort of portray that side of the Dunmer,
[1:30:52 AM] Gnomey: who are able to survive in whatever conditions they're thrown into.
[1:31:31 AM] Gnomey: But yesterday I realized that doesn't really match how I see the story of House Redoran,
[1:31:49 AM] Gnomey: which is the complete opposite: House Redoran utterly fails to adapt to Morrowind's current conditions,
[1:31:57 AM] Gnomey: and has been failing to adapt for a long, long time.
[1:32:06 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[1:32:37 AM] Gnomey: I actually think that tossing them in harsh environments doesn't really do much by itself; they thrive in harsh environments.
[1:32:43 AM] Swiftoak: their armies are weak that's why they're challenged on every corner
[1:32:57 AM] Gnomey: If we wanted to show how badly House Redoran were doing, technically we ought to toss them in fertile land, but that would be boring.
[1:33:12 AM] Gnomey: I think they aren't challenged because their armies are weak,
[1:33:14 AM] Gnomey: though they are now.
[1:33:26 AM] Gnomey: THey're challenged because their army usually has nothing to do.
[1:33:43 AM] Gnomey: They can't fight the Empire, who signed a treaty with Vivec,
[1:33:57 AM] Gnomey: they can't fight Hlaalu, due to Tribunal restrictions on the House War.
[1:34:07 AM] Gnomey: They embraced the vision of the Tribunal,
[1:34:25 AM] Gnomey: but at hearty they're ancient Chimer, and prosperity and utopias are poison to them.
[1:34:30 AM] Gnomey: They thrive in conflict.
[1:35:34 AM] Gnomey: They're sort of like swords who have been left in the scabbard too long.
[1:35:55 AM] Gnomey: They're just passed down as heirlooms, covered in cobwebs and rust so that they can't even shake free of the scabbard properly anymore.
[1:36:10 AM] Swiftoak: thats a good analogy
[1:36:19 AM] Gnomey: Perhaps they will be reforged in the Red Year, but we won't be showing that.
[1:36:27 AM] Gnomey: At most the player will be able to shake off a bit of the rust.
[1:36:48 AM] Gnomey: So in short, what I wasn't really expecting,
[1:37:01 AM] Gnomey: I think we should consider representing them as strangers in their own home.
[1:37:11 AM] Gnomey: Not just have nords or something,
[1:37:16 AM] Gnomey: again, that would be boring.
[1:37:46 AM] Swiftoak: I think so too
[1:37:48 AM] Gnomey: But more broadly, I see Redoran as desintegrating;
[1:37:58 AM] Swiftoak: i was looking at maybe the disparity of the marches
[1:38:01 AM] Gnomey: A bit of the Nords, a bit of the Orcs, a bit of the Empire,
[1:38:06 AM] Gnomey: the ex-Ashlanders flowing in,
[1:38:13 AM] Gnomey: the Velothi class...
[1:38:35 AM] Gnomey: Perhaps there's even a tendency of minor clans leaving Redoran and becoming Velothi, rather than vice versa.
[1:39:01 AM] Gnomey: They see that they can't go anywhere in House Redoran, so they leave the House, basically.
[1:39:41 AM] Gnomey: The alternative pressure is basically to rebellion;
[1:39:58 AM] Gnomey: to go to war with the Hlaalu or outlanders or whoever, Temple be damned.
[1:40:24 AM] Swiftoak: interesting
[1:40:36 AM] Swiftoak: im personally more concerned with clan traditions
[1:40:45 AM] Swiftoak: and stuff thats not necessarily about their martial nature
[1:40:52 AM] Gnomey: Right.
[1:41:12 AM] Swiftoak: with the Skar gone, the marches are basically left under the control of weaker clans
[1:41:18 AM] Gnomey: Basically, I'm thinking that -- possibly -- the traditions hold strongest outside of their settlements.
[1:41:31 AM] Gnomey: The roving warriors patrolling the marches,
[1:41:38 AM] Gnomey: clearing out outlaw camps, etc.
[1:41:47 AM] Gnomey: They're the lifeblood of the Redoran.
[1:42:11 AM] Gnomey: In the clansteads themselves, I think we should capitalize on outside factors like Imperial guilds and the Temple.
[1:42:23 AM] Gnomey: Perhaps there are Indoril advisors at the clan meetings.
[1:45:42 AM] Gnomey: Venym went off with the actual Redoran generals;
[1:46:17 AM] Gnomey: perhaps he recognized that the councils were starting to drag down the Redoran who -- again -- are at their best when at war,
[1:46:50 AM] Gnomey: so he more or less gathered the cream of the crop and made as though he was at war by moving 'against Dagoth Ur' at Ald-ruhn.
[1:47:09 AM] Gnomey: But in doing so, he also sped up the decay of the House on the mainland.
[1:48:01 AM] Swiftoak: well vvardenfell was only opened up recently
[1:48:08 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[1:48:08 AM] Swiftoak: so the house on the mainland is pretty much the house itself
[1:48:35 AM] Gnomey: Well, the fellows on Vvardenfell are the actual bosses.
[1:48:45 AM] Gnomey: Venym's actions were indeed recent,
[1:48:53 AM] Gnomey: but they still had a big impact,
[1:48:57 AM] Gnomey: in part because they were recent.
[1:49:22 AM] Gnomey: He didn't cause the House to fall apart, of course; it had already practically hit rock bottom when he arrived.
[1:50:49 AM] Gnomey: Going with that direction, one idea for the questline would be that the player would essentially gather up the Redoran frontiersmen, rather than going through the councils.
[1:51:51 AM] Gnomey: Assuming we hold to the Nord conflict idea, the Nords start the fighting, a few settlements go down, the clan councils who are so rarely called up to defend Morrowind don't really know what to do anymore,
[1:52:11 AM] Gnomey: but the frontiersmen take up arms and fight back.
[1:52:38 AM] Gnomey: The player, questgiver or whoever then essentially bands the independent groups together and becomes their warleader,
[1:52:44 AM] Gnomey: circumventing the council, by and large.
[1:53:04 AM] Gnomey: And then once the Nords are defeated, or however the details work out,
[1:53:37 AM] Gnomey: House Redoran is left with two parallel power structures,
[1:53:49 AM] Gnomey: and the player will have to try and mend the gap and come out on top.
[1:54:08 AM] Swiftoak: well either way we go, venim ends up dead
[1:54:14 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[1:54:28 AM] Swiftoak: i think we can give the player a bit of agency and let them choose
[1:54:33 AM] Swiftoak: instead of trying to "mend the gap"
[1:54:40 AM] Gnomey: In the above, the player (probably) or questgiver (possibly) will have basically set themselves up as a separate hortator,
[1:54:50 AM] Gnomey: so it's pretty obvious that wouldn't go over well.
[1:55:03 AM] Gnomey: I agree that offering the player a degree of choice is probably a good way to go, though.
[1:55:50 AM] Gnomey: But if we want the player to become Archmaster or whatever the top rank is again,
[1:56:00 AM] Gnomey: then I'd think the choices would be a little restricted.
[1:56:10 AM] Gnomey: Hard to say, though, and it doesn't really matter for the time being.
[1:56:13 AM] Gnomey: Those are all details.
[1:56:28 AM] Swiftoak: i think the top rank is hortator in our redoran
[1:56:31 AM] Swiftoak: which im fine with
[1:56:36 AM] Gnomey: A, right.
[1:56:53 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, I alternately remembered and forgot that in the above.
[1:57:03 AM] Gnomey: I did describe Venym as hortator, then forgot again.
[1:57:31 AM] Gnomey: If the top rank is hortator, all the more reason why the player needs to get to that rank, then.
[1:57:52 AM] Gnomey: Submitting to Venym and trying to mend the gap doesn't really look viable.
[1:58:24 AM] Gnomey: I think the above scenario would also be pretty funny, really;
[1:58:42 AM] Gnomey: Venym leaves Baan Malur to go on a suicide mission on Vvardenfell,
[1:59:01 AM] Gnomey: then discovers some upstart on the mainland has started to act like he's boss,
[1:59:20 AM] Gnomey: and then after killing Venym that upstart goes on to win the mission on Vvardenfell.
[1:59:23 AM] Gnomey: That's jsut sad.
[2:01:12 AM] Swiftoak: finishing the redoran questline is a shortcut to being named h ortator
[2:01:15 AM] Swiftoak: for redoran
[2:01:20 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:01:29 AM] Swiftoak: the other houses are a different matter
[2:01:39 AM] Swiftoak: would being the head of the other houses mean you skip that step in the main quest?
[2:01:55 AM] Gnomey: I'd actually think so;
[2:02:01 AM] Swiftoak: this is why i think it's too early to plot the questlines specifically until we get a good understanding how they'll intersect (and they will)
[2:02:02 AM] Gnomey: or at least that it would be more of a formality.
[2:02:11 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[2:02:13 AM] Gnomey: How is it in vanilla Morrowind again?
[2:02:29 AM] Swiftoak: i think you still have to do it, but you still gotta talk to everyone
[2:02:30 AM] Gnomey: I think the boss of each faction is always a stumbling block,
[2:02:50 AM] Gnomey: you have to kill them, but, if you're already a faction boss, you'll have already killed your faction's leader.
[2:02:59 AM] Swiftoak: i wonder how it would work though, if you were in House Redoran
[2:03:04 AM] Swiftoak: but not advanced enough
[2:03:10 AM] Swiftoak: and you get to that stage in the MQ
[2:03:21 AM] Swiftoak: well you kill venim, does that mean you skip the rest of the redoran questline?
[2:03:31 AM] Gnomey: Well, I don't think we actually need to diverge from vanilla there.
[2:03:47 AM] Gnomey: Hm.
[2:04:05 AM] Gnomey: I wouldn't say so,
[2:04:11 AM] Swiftoak: if you say beat the main quest before even starting a house questline, and you clean the top clocks
[2:04:16 AM] Gnomey: but it might shorten the questline a bit;
[2:04:19 AM] Swiftoak: how would that impact the faction questlines
[2:04:20 AM] Swiftoak: perhaps
[2:04:23 AM] Gnomey: sounds like it might be a pain for questers.
[2:04:24 AM] Swiftoak: but thats something worth considering
[2:04:37 AM] Swiftoak: yeah which is why quest planning is a totally separate step from faction planning
[2:04:40 AM] Gnomey: Usually, though, the bosses don't figure much into the questlines,
[2:04:44 AM] Gnomey: perhaps because of that.
[2:04:45 AM] Swiftoak: we should plan these things together, not piecemeal
[2:04:57 AM] Swiftoak: its going to be a pain i agree
[2:05:07 AM] Gnomey: Not necessarily;
[2:05:22 AM] Gnomey: as long as you don't directly interact with venim except when you need to kill him,
[2:05:29 AM] Gnomey: it should go pretty smoothly.
[2:05:38 AM] Gnomey: I think that's how Bethesda did it as well.
[2:05:53 AM] Gnomey: But if we want Venim to play a larger part,
[2:06:01 AM] Gnomey: for storytelling reasons, which we might want to do,
[2:06:08 AM] Gnomey: things will indeed get more complicated.
[2:06:13 AM] Swiftoak: im arguing this for all the houses by the way not just venim/redoran
[2:06:28 AM] Swiftoak: because naturally our storylines are gonna be more complicated than vanilla
[2:06:33 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, same thing though.
[2:06:41 AM] Swiftoak: because were actually making them mean something more than guild clones
[2:06:49 AM] Gnomey: As long as the house leaders are not direct antagonists in the questline,
[2:06:52 AM] Gnomey: or questgivers or whatever,
[2:06:55 AM] Gnomey: it probably won
[2:06:59 AM] Gnomey: 't be too bad.
[2:07:00 AM] Swiftoak: probably
[2:07:10 AM] Gnomey: Indoril makes things easy for us in that regard. :- P
[2:07:24 AM] Gnomey: One guild leader you won't have to kill.
[2:09:13 AM] Swiftoak: true
[2:09:18 AM] Swiftoak: anyways going back to their faction trope
[2:09:29 AM] Swiftoak: they're a disintegrating hive basically
[2:09:37 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:09:50 AM] Swiftoak: in which the hive (redoran) still exists, but the compartments are off doing their own thing
[2:10:07 AM] Swiftoak: in that sense they sort of mirror the ashlanders
[2:10:22 AM] Swiftoak: in fact i think they're the house that's closest to ashlanders in terms of traditions, mentality, etc/
[2:10:27 AM] Gnomey: Basically, Telvanni and Dres did the smarter thing, and of course Ashlanders, in keeping to their ways.
[2:10:39 AM] Gnomey: Hlaalu and Indoril were actually capable of adapting,
[2:10:46 AM] Gnomey: so they were fine as well.
[2:11:05 AM] Swiftoak: indoril, adapting
[2:11:08 AM] Gnomey: Redoran was incapable of adapting, but tried really hard, and failed.
[2:11:08 AM] Swiftoak: isn't that kind of ironic?
[2:11:15 AM] Gnomey: Don't think so. :- P
[2:11:17 AM] Gnomey: Not anymore.
[2:11:22 AM] Gnomey: Indoril aren't conservative;
[2:11:32 AM] Gnomey: They've just got tunnel vision.
[2:11:39 AM] Gnomey: THey're trying to change, but can't see the problem,
[2:11:49 AM] Gnomey: in part because they're part of the problem,
[2:11:53 AM] Gnomey: which they'd never admit.
[2:12:34 AM] Gnomey: They can adapt, but only on their own terms.
[2:12:46 AM] Gnomey: The Tribunal and Indoril set about creating a new world, and that went well,
[2:12:56 AM] Gnomey: but as soon as the Emperor tried to dictate the flow of things,
[2:13:13 AM] Gnomey: the Indoril were neither able to nor desired to keep up,
[2:13:24 AM] Gnomey: and just went 'lalala' and pretended nothing had changed from before.
[2:14:07 AM] Swiftoak: i know
[2:14:09 AM] Swiftoak: we know
[2:14:11 AM] Swiftoak: does the player hahaha
[2:14:12 AM] Gnomey: Haha.
[2:14:26 AM] Swiftoak: well i guess that's the fun of it
[2:14:34 AM] Swiftoak: you figure it out by plaing the damn questlines
[2:14:37 AM] Gnomey: Well, we don't want the player to know everything from the start.
[2:14:38 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:14:53 AM] Gnomey: I think that's a bit of fun potential of the questlines;
[2:15:04 AM] Gnomey: on the one hand, I think they should often end on a hopeful note,
[2:15:12 AM] Gnomey: making the player think they've actually acheived something.
[2:15:34 AM] Gnomey: On another, though, I think we should leave a trail of breadcrumbs so that the player can discover just what's wrong with the faction,
[2:15:42 AM] Gnomey: and recognize how fruitless the whole thing really is.
[2:17:49 AM] Swiftoak: yeah thats sort of why i want to deviate from vanilla alot
[2:17:52 AM] Swiftoak: it makes it interesting
[2:17:59 AM] Swiftoak: it flips what we know of the houses on its head
[2:18:06 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:18:07 AM] Swiftoak: while still retaining that feel that made morrowind so special
[2:18:41 AM] Swiftoak: im interested in the subcultures of the houses actually
[2:18:51 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:19:01 AM] Swiftoak: and i think you help me a bit with the clan/hive thing
[2:19:02 AM] Gnomey: I really think at this point we have to figure out the Temple, though,
[2:19:11 AM] Gnomey: and that a lot of subcultures and such can flow from there.
[2:19:30 AM] Gnomey: We focus a lot on the houses,
[2:19:44 AM] Gnomey: but the Empire and Temple are arguably more important, at least taken singly.
[2:20:27 AM] Gnomey: Empire, House and Temple is basically the tug-of-war going on in Morrowind,
[2:20:36 AM] Swiftoak: im not 100% convinced everything has to flow from the tmeple
[2:20:38 AM] Swiftoak: but you're right
[2:20:58 AM] Gnomey: Well, at the moment Morrowind is a sort of weird wilderness,
[2:21:05 AM] Gnomey: split up between the different Houses,
[2:21:15 AM] Gnomey: with the Empire having small patches and the Temple slightly larger patches of land.
[2:21:40 AM] Gnomey: At the moment, I really think the Temple should be more solidly established.
[2:21:57 AM] Gnomey: There should be temples across Morrowind and, of course, Temple worshippers across Morrowind.
[2:22:12 AM] Swiftoak: hold that thought, got to restart the computer
[2:22:19 AM] Gnomey: k
[2:22:24 AM] Swiftoak: keep typing it's fine
[2:22:49 AM] Gnomey: I feel as though we're treating Temples like, say, Morag Tong guildhalls at the moment.
[2:22:57 AM] Gnomey: They're just guildhalls.
[2:24:02 AM] Gnomey: Though you're right that not everything should flow from the Temple.
[2:25:32 AM] Gnomey: It's a general issue I have; the Indoril are supposed to govern Morrowind, even if they're failing, but if we don't put some representatives in Redoran lands where else will they be found?
[2:25:40 AM] Gnomey: Those random Velothi villages in Telvannis?
[2:25:56 AM] Gnomey: Same for the Temple, and same for the Empire, with its forts.
[2:26:08 AM] Gnomey: Though the Empire at least has some presence in Hlaalu lands, probably.
[2:26:19 AM] Gnomey: And the passes.
[2:28:11 AM] Swiftoak: oh yeah adanorcil said those itenant clerks who travel
[2:28:21 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:28:27 AM] Gnomey: Those are the ones I meant. :- P
[2:28:40 AM] Gnomey: I'm afraid my brain's not all there today.
[2:28:49 AM] Swiftoak: oh I've always thought
[2:28:59 AM] Swiftoak: not everything is the tribunal
[2:29:00 AM] Swiftoak: the houses have their own motivations
[2:29:09 AM] Gnomey: THey do, yeah.
[2:29:17 AM] Swiftoak: and I always saw the link between the tribunal and the houses sort of a more personal relationship
[2:29:20 AM] Swiftoak: rather than an institutional one
[2:29:36 AM] Gnomey: But compare with America. (Never thought I'd go there with Morrowind).
[2:29:47 AM] Gnomey: The Temple is the government, the Hosues the states.
[2:29:56 AM] Gnomey: The Houses have a lot of autonomy,
[2:30:00 AM] Swiftoak: i'm not American haha im not the best with their system
[2:30:15 AM] Gnomey: Hey, you're jsut above them, aren't you? :- P
[2:30:37 AM] Gnomey: Basically, the government of Morrowind is the Temple.
[2:30:42 AM] Gnomey: The Temple rule Morrowind,
[2:30:49 AM] Gnomey: but they allow the Houses a lot of autonomy,
[2:30:54 AM] Gnomey: and don't step on their toes much.
[2:31:14 AM] Swiftoak: hm
[2:31:17 AM] Gnomey: By and large, they serve different purposes.
[2:32:05 AM] Gnomey: Or another comparison you probably won't get (:- P):
[2:32:16 AM] Gnomey: Temple is the EU, the Houses are the nations within the EU.
[2:32:28 AM] Gnomey: Empire is... UN... I guess...
[2:32:47 AM] Swiftoak: hahahaha
[2:33:18 AM] Gnomey: The european nations are autonomous, of course, for the most part,
[2:33:35 AM] Gnomey: but the EU is there largely to make things flow more smoothly between the nations and the outside world;
[2:33:57 AM] Gnomey: some common laws, some economic regulation, etc.
[2:34:06 AM] Swiftoak: oh yeah EU im more familiar with actually
[2:34:14 AM] Gnomey: So the House War system, for instance,
[2:34:19 AM] Gnomey: governing the interaction between Houses.
[2:34:38 AM] Gnomey: Then all matters faith,
[2:34:50 AM] Gnomey: though naturally Indoril have their fingers in that pie as well,
[2:34:59 AM] Gnomey: and not all Houses really care.
[2:35:08 AM] Gnomey: (Telvanni and Dres, that is)
[2:35:54 AM] Swiftoak: I would argue the hlaalu and redoran aren't that into it as well
[2:35:58 AM] Swiftoak: yeah it's there
[2:36:10 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, I have no idea really,
[2:36:15 AM] Swiftoak: for the hlaalu especially, I always saw their recognition of the tribunal as a façade of itself
[2:36:16 AM] Gnomey: especially as far as Hlaalu is concerned.
[2:36:22 AM] Swiftoak: the redoran, yeah they have ties with vivec
[2:36:23 AM] Gnomey: I think Redoran are pretty faithful;
[2:36:24 AM] Swiftoak: and i'd love to expand on that
[2:36:28 AM] Gnomey: Bouyant Armigers and all that.
[2:36:39 AM] Swiftoak: but I don't think they have much loyalty to the temple as an institution
[2:36:41 AM] Gnomey: I agree that we should expand on that, though.
[2:37:04 AM] Gnomey: I've said before that I'm starting to think that the Temple doesn't really mess with people,
[2:37:13 AM] Gnomey: and that that's mainly the Indoril trying to govern through the Temple.
[2:37:34 AM] Gnomey: For me, that could resolve the situation with the Hlaalu:
[2:37:48 AM] Gnomey: they actually are faithful and such, if not in an in-your-face way,
[2:37:53 AM] Swiftoak: yeah I certainly don't want to go the hlaalu have daggers behind their back
[2:37:57 AM] Gnomey: but they don't care for the Indoril influences within the Temple,
[2:38:05 AM] Swiftoak: but their loyalty has always been to the velothi project, and everything else is pretty much a means to an end
[2:38:13 AM] Gnomey: which is starting to make them seem rebellious against the Temple,
[2:38:20 AM] Gnomey: when really that's not quite the case.
[2:38:23 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[2:38:27 AM] Swiftoak: they're not itching for a fight
[2:38:34 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:38:42 AM] Gnomey: They might certainly have lsot trust in the Temple, though.
[2:38:49 AM] Swiftoak: some of the younger families in hlaalu perhaps wouldn't know much about the velothi project and just roll with it
[2:38:54 AM] Gnomey: I think that should very much be the case.
[2:42:00 AM] Swiftoak: I always pictured the redoran clans having some kind of oral tradition
[2:42:07 AM] Swiftoak: hooms
[2:42:08 AM] Swiftoak: music
[2:42:15 AM] Gnomey: Or hoomal traditon. :- P
[2:42:20 AM] Swiftoak: hah
[2:42:32 AM] Gnomey: Hm.
[2:42:37 AM] Gnomey: I'd agree with that,
[2:42:45 AM] Gnomey: though again 'oral' gets a little comlicated;
[2:42:58 AM] Gnomey: pre Ghostfence you had the ancestors, for instance,
[2:43:02 AM] Gnomey: and then of course the hooms.
[2:43:23 AM] Gnomey: Music's good too.
[2:43:42 AM] Gnomey: The whole PGE bit about the Dunmer having their ash gear when outside,
[2:43:55 AM] Gnomey: and tthen shedding those in favour of lavish clothes when they get indoors.
[2:44:08 AM] Gnomey: The Redoran interiors are also fairly fancy;
[2:44:16 AM] Gnomey: a bit of arabian influence there, really.
[2:44:44 AM] Gnomey: So music and storytelling and such works very nicely.
[2:45:18 AM] Gnomey: I'd think a focus on wind; carved pipes and the like.
[2:45:21 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[2:45:29 AM] Swiftoak: i think this is good brainstorming
[2:45:33 AM] Swiftoak: each clan has it's own history
[2:45:37 AM] Swiftoak: though we don't have to beat it to death
[2:45:46 AM] Swiftoak: we can just leave visual cues and odd bits of dialogue here and there
[2:45:46 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:46:03 AM] Gnomey: I think we should go crazier with clans for Dres,
[2:46:17 AM] Gnomey: but doing something more subtle for Redoran seems like a good idea.
[2:46:23 AM] Swiftoak: i like how each of the houses sort of has elements of other houses
[2:46:32 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[2:46:51 AM] Gnomey: I think those influences really help tie Morrowind together.
[2:47:02 AM] Gnomey: Probably why I emphasis parallels in architecture so much.
[2:47:10 AM] Gnomey: Though they should naturally not be taken too far.
[2:47:15 AM] Gnomey: In either case.
[2:47:20 AM] Swiftoak: of course
[2:47:28 AM] Swiftoak: this gives me a few ideas to fill out my redoran document
[2:47:36 AM] Gnomey: Excellent.
[2:51:04 AM] Swiftoak: another restart
[2:51:09 AM] Swiftoak: be right back
[2:51:13 AM] Gnomey: k
[...]
[2:52:43 AM] Swiftoak: but once im finished i'll get to that document
[2:52:57 AM] Swiftoak: because that's primarily what i wanted to get to tonight
[2:53:07 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:00:25 AM] Swiftoak: and one more round of updates
[3:00:29 AM] Swiftoak: but we can continue to talk
[3:00:53 AM] Gnomey: Well, I think I've gotten most of what I wanted to talk about off my chest.
[3:00:54 AM] Swiftoak: basically I want to finish this doc so we have a bse to actually hone our disucssions on redoran
[3:00:59 AM] Swiftoak: ahh yeah it's late for you eh
[3:01:07 AM] Swiftoak: if you have to go don't let me hold you up
[3:01:13 AM] Gnomey: Haha.
[3:01:16 AM] Gnomey: I'm still good. :- P
[3:05:02 AM] Swiftoak: all the typos in this document
[3:05:04 AM] Swiftoak: that I pick up
[3:05:07 AM] Swiftoak: on a second reading
[3:05:16 AM] Gnomey: So that I don't have to. :- P
[3:08:49 AM] Swiftoak: ok
[3:08:50 AM] Swiftoak: so Cormar
[3:08:57 AM] Gnomey: Right.
[3:09:02 AM] Swiftoak: I used to be 100% in the camp of make it redoran
[3:09:08 AM] Swiftoak: i now think we could handle it two ways
[3:09:15 AM] Swiftoak: that lake is a holy site
[3:09:20 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:09:24 AM] Swiftoak: though im hesitant to redoranify it
[3:09:30 AM] Swiftoak: because then we have a lot of redoran settlements
[3:09:42 AM] Swiftoak: but no way they would have just let the imperials set up there
[3:09:52 AM] Swiftoak: unless maybe the armistice prevented themt o do anything about it
[3:10:01 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, something like that...
[3:10:04 AM] Swiftoak: i think the fort could be its own thing because it's nicely designed
[3:10:19 AM] Swiftoak: could it be a gnisis thing?
[3:10:24 AM] Gnomey: What I was roughly thinking is that Hlaalu somehow came to own that land and,
[3:10:37 AM] Gnomey: as with Caldera (sort of) and Helnim (maybe),
[3:10:43 AM] Gnomey: they contracted it out to Imperials.
[3:10:55 AM] Gnomey: But the question remains as to how the Hlaalu got their hands on that land...
[3:11:24 AM] Gnomey: What if we keep it Imperial, but have scattered Redoran living around the lake?
[3:13:57 AM] Swiftoak: keeping it at least partially imperial introduces an interesting power dynamic
[3:14:10 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:14:23 AM] Swiftoak: i imagine the redoran didn't build anything crazy it was just a peaceful island
[3:14:27 AM] Swiftoak: with a shrine or something
[3:14:39 AM] Swiftoak: but if we keep it partially imperial
[3:14:47 AM] Swiftoak: its not because we want to save time/work
[3:14:49 AM] Swiftoak: it has to be a good reason
[3:15:02 AM] Gnomey: Ah, I simply think non-Redoran has more potential.
[3:15:10 AM] Swiftoak: Velothi?
[3:15:17 AM] Swiftoak: what's the deal with velothi in redoran areas anyways
[3:15:21 AM] Swiftoak: did we ever figure htat out
[3:15:21 AM] Gnomey: For the Imperial idea,
[3:15:33 AM] Gnomey: as I said I'm figuring a -- probably independent -- company,
[3:15:47 AM] Gnomey: and they have Dunmer mercenaries as guards, wearing standard bonemold,
[3:15:56 AM] Gnomey: but it's a sort of open secret that they're really Hlaalu, or something.
[3:16:19 AM] Swiftoak: what about a gnisis-fied solution where we have a fort amongst a redoran settlement
[3:16:23 AM] Swiftoak: or would that be silgrad tower bad
[3:16:27 AM] Gnomey: The Hlaalu try and make sure the Redoran irritation is aimed towards the Imperials,
[3:16:37 AM] Gnomey: and the Imperials, who jsut wanted to make some cash, are caught in the middle.
[3:16:58 AM] Gnomey: At this point I'm really gun-shy on any form of style mixing. :- P
[3:17:10 AM] Swiftoak: BUT BETH DID IT
[3:17:12 AM] Swiftoak: SO WE CAN TOO
[3:17:12 AM] Gnomey: I almost think I'd prefer making the rest of the town Velothi rather than Redoran, though,
[3:17:13 AM] Swiftoak: RIGHT?
[3:17:15 AM] Swiftoak:
[3:17:16 AM] Gnomey: if we do go that route.
[3:17:32 AM] Swiftoak: well when we do ask the cormar question on the forum
[3:17:36 AM] Swiftoak: it will be with a rational argument
[3:17:36 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:17:43 AM] Swiftoak: otherwise it's just totally heretical
[3:17:44 AM] Gnomey: I do think most of the town population can be Dunmer,
[...]
[3:17:47 AM] Gnomey: probably Velothi,
[...]
[3:17:56 AM] Gnomey: I'm just not sure if the tileset needs to reflect that.
[3:18:43 AM] Gnomey: What I will say is that I think we do need to have an Imperial settlement in Redoran lands,
[3:18:59 AM] Gnomey: but I'm well aware that there are good arguments against that settlement being Cormar.
[3:19:27 AM] Gnomey: On the other hand, its placement is actually pretty good for an Imperial company angle,
[3:19:33 AM] Gnomey: having access to the ocean.
[3:21:13 AM] Swiftoak: so maybe there was some sort of clause in the armistice which stipulated the imperials were allowed to build
[3:21:19 AM] Swiftoak: and their location really pissed the redoran
[3:21:21 AM] Swiftoak: because you know
[3:21:26 AM] Gnomey: Hm.
[3:21:37 AM] Gnomey: I rather figure that the land fell to the Hlaalu for some reason,'
[3:21:42 AM] Gnomey: during the Hlaalu landgrab,
[3:21:48 AM] Gnomey: and the Hlaalu dumped it on the Imperials,
[3:22:06 AM] Gnomey: to redirect some of the hate.
[3:22:20 AM] Gnomey: THe Imperils had no idea what they were getting into.
[3:22:36 AM] Gnomey: But the Redoran weren't really able to contest it,
[3:22:43 AM] Gnomey: especially in the early days after the armistice.
[3:22:52 AM] Gnomey: THey didn't have any bargaining chips.
[3:29:18 AM] Swiftoak: hmm
[3:29:22 AM] Swiftoak: ok so the scrab chiefs
[3:29:25 AM] Swiftoak: crab chiefs(
[3:29:27 AM] Swiftoak: sorry
[3:30:18 AM] Swiftoak: they have a rather skewed concept of nobility don't they
[3:32:29 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:32:38 AM] Gnomey: Really, I see them more as generals.
[3:33:43 AM] Gnomey: Really, the march terminology is pretty fitting;
[3:33:58 AM] Gnomey: there are a lot of parallels to be drawn with the Border Reivers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers
[3:35:10 AM] Gnomey: Though during the days of the Tribunal, the anarchic element would of course be toned down;
[3:35:16 AM] Gnomey: less in-fighting, except in the form of duels.
[3:35:29 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[3:35:30 AM] Swiftoak: this is really good stuff
[3:38:59 AM] Gnomey: Ha, reading through the article: "at the Battle of Pinkie Cleugh in 1547, an observer (William Patten) noticed that the Scottish and English borderers were talking to each other in the midst of battle, and on being spotted put on a show of fighting."
[3:39:11 AM] Gnomey: This really reads like pre-Tribunal Morrowind to me.
[3:39:32 AM] Swiftoak: haha
[3:39:32 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[3:39:40 AM] Swiftoak: i'm thinking the redoran
[3:39:56 AM] Swiftoak: descended largely from the warrior castes of ashlander clans
[3:40:08 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:40:27 AM] Gnomey: Of the great Houses, I think they're the one that diverged the least from the Ashlanders;
[3:40:31 AM] Gnomey: probably even more so than the Dres.
[3:40:50 AM] Gnomey: As the Dres have the whole agriculture thing going from them,
[3:40:57 AM] Gnomey: and probably a more organizaed religion.
[3:41:37 AM] Gnomey: But I think that the important thing to keep in mind when comparing Dres and Redoran is that I don't think Redoran should be as intentionally conservative;
[3:41:59 AM] Gnomey: as I said before, they're not against adapting, they're just very very bad at it.
[3:42:14 AM] Gnomey: Dres could probably change if they wanted to, but they don't.
[3:42:29 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[3:42:52 AM] Swiftoak: you know the redoran are kind of vain in their own way
[3:42:58 AM] Swiftoak: just not in the traditional sense
[3:43:07 AM] Gnomey: Hm, yes.
[3:43:08 AM] Swiftoak: as they don't really flaunt their wealth, they flaunt their deeds
[3:43:18 AM] Swiftoak: we don't want them to be to paladin-like
[3:43:19 AM] Swiftoak: honour an dall
[3:43:24 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:43:25 AM] Swiftoak: because that that becomes very one-sided
[3:43:48 AM] Gnomey: Well, I think in that way they flaunt their independence, even if their independence is tied to their clan and such.
[3:44:03 AM] Gnomey: The whole Templar trope is about fighting for a greater good; faith or whatever.
[3:44:13 AM] Gnomey: That's Ordinators all the way, and Indoril when they fight.
[3:44:24 AM] Gnomey: Redoran aren't like that, though, I'd think, or not usually.
[3:45:21 AM] Gnomey: Redoran fight for themselves, and in doing so work to preserve their clan.
[3:45:29 AM] Gnomey: It's a little more complex than that, naturally;
[3:45:39 AM] Gnomey: they're not selfish like the Telvanni.
[3:45:47 AM] Swiftoak: i mean the whole idea of fictive kinship
[3:45:53 AM] Swiftoak: leaves a lot of room for individualistic oppurtunism
[3:45:59 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, exactly.
[3:46:08 AM] Swiftoak: which it hink is where the source of redoran's intenral issues are
[3:46:14 AM] Gnomey: They don't march in lock-step;
[3:46:22 AM] Gnomey: sometimes their interests just naturally align, however,
[3:46:30 AM] Gnomey: and in those situations they can move as a body.
[3:46:43 AM] Gnomey: But arguably they only learnt to do that when Nerevar taught them how.
[3:46:53 AM] Gnomey: Before that they were probably a real mess.
[3:46:58 AM] Swiftoak: they're sort of like a the more subtle version of asoiaf's wildlings
[3:47:06 AM] Swiftoak: theyre not slaughtering each other or anything
[3:47:10 AM] Swiftoak: but they are disparate
[3:47:11 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:49:29 AM] Swiftoak: if you read the bodrem dialog
[3:49:40 AM] Gnomey: Right, I never have;
[3:49:44 AM] Gnomey: I should get to that.
[3:49:46 AM] Swiftoak: the hetman of bodrem basically flaunts that he has associations (shield-brother) of felur salothren
[3:49:50 AM] Swiftoak: master of horns of kartur
[3:50:07 AM] Swiftoak: yeah im a big shot because im shield-brother to this other big shot
[3:50:16 AM] Gnomey: Ah.
[3:50:23 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, I'd imagine there would be some of that,
[3:50:31 AM] Gnomey: though I think it should often be frowned upon.
[3:50:58 AM] Swiftoak: yeah obviously
[3:51:02 AM] Gnomey: I think Redoran would like to do that sort of thing,
[3:51:03 AM] Gnomey: though,
[3:51:08 AM] Swiftoak: but it does sort of highlight athat sense of vanity
[3:51:10 AM] Gnomey: they'd jsut generally prefer being subtle about it.
[3:51:13 AM] Swiftoak: in times of war though it's not encouraged.
[3:51:16 AM] Swiftoak: as in right in our timeline
[3:51:23 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:51:42 AM] Gnomey: Though at the start of our timeline, I'm not sure if mainland Redoran would be in that war-time mood.
[3:51:58 AM] Gnomey: Vvardenfell mainland as well, really, aside from Venim and company.
[3:52:40 AM] Gnomey: But stuff like heirlooms and clan signets and that kind of thing.
[3:52:54 AM] Gnomey: Yes, those things belong to the individual Redoran, of course; he's inherited them,
[3:53:15 AM] Gnomey: but at the same time, there's naturally an elements of 'look who I'm related to' as opposed to 'look who I am'.
[3:54:01 AM] Gnomey: I think the Indoril would have a much stronger sense of 'look who I am'; they'd be more comfortable wearing their ancestor's achievements as their own.
[3:54:25 AM] Gnomey: The Redoran are less decisive about it; when push comes to shove, they still value personal achievement over inherited prestige.
[3:54:57 AM] Swiftoak: yeah their lives are about
[3:55:04 AM] Swiftoak: "what can i add to our namesake"
[3:55:09 AM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[3:55:26 AM] Swiftoak: and through oral traditoons that passes on but its not like as huge of a deal
[3:55:31 AM] Gnomey: I think some Indoril would forget that bit sometimes; rest on their laurels, so to speak.
[3:55:40 AM] Gnomey: Their family has already done so much for Morrowind.
[3:55:42 AM] Swiftoak: unlike the indoril who basically keep everything codified, the redoran don't
[3:55:55 AM] Swiftoak: so its that trickle-down effect
[3:56:06 AM] Gnomey: And, again, the Redoran are able to rise up.
[3:56:30 AM] Gnomey: What's an upstart to the Indoril? The other elders have built 'their' reputation over thousands of years.
[3:56:43 AM] Gnomey: They have thousands of years of good deed to their name.
[3:56:58 AM] Gnomey: Upstarts have to start from nothing.
[3:57:40 AM] Gnomey: Which is why political marriages are important for the Indoril,
[3:57:42 AM] Gnomey: or certainly for the player.
[3:57:49 AM] Gnomey: And Nerevar.
[3:58:14 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[4:06:50 AM] Swiftoak: lots of information in this convo
[4:07:00 AM] Swiftoak: will take some time to sift through
[4:07:08 AM] Gnomey: Wondering whether I should post it on the forums.
[4:07:21 AM] Gnomey: Perhaps cutting some stuff out, though I think we've been pretty on-topic.
[4:07:22 AM] Swiftoak: would be a good idea in the brainstorming thread?
[4:07:23 AM] Swiftoak: yeah
[4:07:34 AM] Swiftoak: im working on the document right now
[4:12:44 AM] Swiftoak: trying to figure out
[4:12:48 AM] Swiftoak: how the bigwigs became the bigwigs
[4:12:50 AM] Swiftoak: as in
[4:12:57 AM] Swiftoak: what metric do they use to determine just how important a clan is
[4:13:05 AM] Gnomey: Hm.
[4:13:10 AM] Gnomey: I'd say general influence.
[4:13:18 AM] Gnomey: Either their clan is influential,
[4:13:22 AM] Gnomey: or they as individuals are,
[4:13:25 AM] Gnomey: in their local area.
[4:13:46 AM] Gnomey: Enough so that the other elders/councillors are willing to recognize them as warleaders over them.
[4:15:04 AM] Gnomey: I think the bigwigs should very much not be static.
[4:15:16 AM] Gnomey: Families that stay 'in power' should not be the norm;
[4:15:41 AM] Swiftoak: yeah i was thinking exactly that
[4:15:43 AM] Swiftoak: it's organic
[4:16:08 AM] Swiftoak: i think i have a decent idea
[4:16:14 AM] Swiftoak: it's how i put it in words/concise paragraphs
[4:16:18 AM] Swiftoak: that's the tough part
[4:16:26 AM] Gnomey: Yeah, I can understand that.
[4:16:38 AM] Swiftoak: i like how sload just paraphrased a bunch of people with the indoril document
[4:16:44 AM] Gnomey: Haha,
[4:16:50 AM] Gnomey: that is handy, isn't it?
[4:17:06 AM] Gnomey: Then everyone afterwards naturally paraphrased Sload's document.
[4:17:14 AM] Swiftoak: hahaha
[4:18:35 AM] Gnomey: It sounds strange to say, but the Roman republic may actually be a fairly good reference for Redoran.
[4:19:07 AM] Gnomey: Though perhaps I only say that largely due to the parallels between the Imperator and Hortator.
[4:19:29 AM] Gnomey: They're really basically the same thing.
[4:20:16 AM] Gnomey: Anyway, I may actually have to tap out after all,
[4:20:22 AM] Gnomey: as much as I'd like to continue chatting.
[4:21:02 AM] Swiftoak: ahhh yeah pleaase
[4:21:08 AM] Swiftoak: im kinda tired myself
[4:21:19 AM] Swiftoak: i may work on this for a bit more but im also close to the end of my rope today haha
[...]
[9:31:09 PM] Swiftoak: heyt
[9:31:17 PM] Swiftoak: so I made some progress on the document last night
[9:31:17 PM] Gnomey: Hi.
[9:31:24 PM] Gnomey: Excellent.
[9:31:59 PM] Swiftoak: Redoran society is defined largely by individualism and kinship, rather than monolithism. Many Redoran, having descended from Velothi warrior castes view the concepts of nobility, kinship, and leadership differently, in which one’s status within society is defined not necessarily by wealth or name, but one’s direct influence through deeds. In that sense, their social structures are more pragmatic than those of the other houses. The highest echelons of Redoran society are comprised primarily of accomplished clan elders well versed in the various traditions and stories of the House, and Crab Chiefs that are responsible for marshalling the often disparate clans of the Redoran Marches. Other, lesser clans often patrol the marches, alongside their retainers and kin, and combined, form the armies of the Redoran themselves.
That is not to say the Redoran are without vain. Their vanity derives from their sense of independence, which is also the source of internal tension. As mentioned previously, the Redoran are very provincial in nature, and their many clans often march out of step, causing dissonance within the House. Many clan leaders often have their own, local interests, rather than the interests of the House at large. Many individual Redoran pride themselves on individual accomplishments and martial association with their various clans.
Redoran conventions are often uncodified, and are often passed through traditional songs and intense rituals that often vary from clan-to-clan. Their culture bears a strong resemblance to the Ashlanders, in a sense that they view things rather simplistically. They more often fight for themselves, rather than a particular cause, though they believe that by serving oneself, they by extension, serve Morrowind.

Blood ties are of secondary importance. All Redoran parents aspire for their children to take on a name with more prestige than their own. If the child fails to gain a patron, then they will usually be offered their parents' name. If for whatever reason they aren't granted their parents' name (usually for reasons of family breakdown) and they can't find anyone else to lend them their name, then they have the status of pariah in Redoran society.
[9:32:03 PM] Swiftoak: last paragraph I stole from gro-dhal
[9:32:06 PM] Swiftoak: still needs a lot of work
[9:35:26 PM] Gnomey: I'm really sorry (not really) but: "That is not to say the Redoran are without vain." should read "without vanity". :- P
[9:35:54 PM] Swiftoak: sure you are
[9:35:55 PM] Swiftoak: hah
[9:35:57 PM] Swiftoak: ok thanks
[9:36:04 PM] Swiftoak: but anything off so far
[9:36:19 PM] Gnomey: Not really, no. Just nitpicking.
[9:36:30 PM] Swiftoak: something I haven't explored yet is how they differentiate blood kinship from fictive kinship
[9:36:47 PM] Swiftoak: gro dhal touches on that in the brainstorming thread
[9:37:35 PM] Gnomey: Hm.
[9:38:02 PM] Gnomey: Not too sure about gro-Dhal's paragraph, actually.
[9:38:24 PM] Gnomey: At this point that seems like more of an Indoril thing.
[9:38:38 PM] Gnomey: It still works for Redoran,
[9:38:45 PM] Gnomey: but I don't think they'd be too fussed about it.
[9:39:18 PM] Gnomey: Anyway, really the only criticisms I have are very minor:
[9:39:40 PM] Gnomey: "their social structures are more pragmatic than those of the other houses." I don't think Redoran's system is more pragmatic than the Hlaalu or Telvanni system,
[9:39:51 PM] Gnomey: and perhaps the Dres system as well, if only we knew what it was.
[9:40:11 PM] Gnomey: Especially the Telvanni, who put all their weight behind individual merit and none on the clan.
[9:40:43 PM] Gnomey: Though one could debate on how pragmatic their system is as -- even more than the Redoran -- it encourages in-fighting.
[9:41:25 PM] Gnomey: "The highest echelons of Redoran society are comprised primarily of accomplished clan elders well versed in the various traditions and stories of the House, and Crab Chiefs that are responsible for marshalling the often disparate clans of the Redoran Marches." Extremely nitpicky, but I don't think these should always be mutually exclusive.
[9:41:39 PM] Gnomey: But I think I've even made that nitpick before, and it's more an issue of wording than anything else.
[9:42:06 PM] Swiftoak: oh yeah I know that
[9:42:18 PM] Gnomey: "They more often fight for themselves, rather than a particular cause, though they believe that by serving oneself, they by extension, serve Morrowind." You could make this clearer;
[9:42:45 PM] Gnomey: serving themselves is directly linked to serving their clan, as I said last time.
[9:43:09 PM] Gnomey: Fighting threats also protects Morrowind, so I suppose the more direct link exists as well.
[9:44:01 PM] Gnomey: But I think the general principal is that, as often as possible, the Redoran direct their pointy implements at the enemies of Morrowind, for their personal glory, their clan's glory and for Morrowind,
[9:44:18 PM] Gnomey: and as such they're generally a positive force all around.
[9:44:59 PM] Gnomey: Anyway, those are the main points that stood out to me.
[9:45:11 PM] Swiftoak: ok if anything it just helps me clarify some of my convoluted writing
[9:45:27 PM] Gnomey: I do think that, despite my note above, underlining the pragmatism of House Redoran is a good thing.
[9:45:35 PM] Swiftoak: basically the point of this section is a basic guide to how we should portray them ingame, obviously giving liberty to NPCers
[9:45:56 PM] Gnomey: I don't see them as generally letting ceremony get in the way of getting the job done,
[9:46:09 PM] Gnomey: though they will let matters of pride get in the way, hence the duels.
[9:46:21 PM] Swiftoak: perhaps some traditional/ceremonial aspect for say the higher ranks
[9:46:27 PM] Swiftoak: some kind of ritual but again not a biggie
[9:46:36 PM] Gnomey: I think the main aspect should revolve around pride, though;
[9:46:37 PM] Swiftoak: yes that's sort of something we should talk about
[9:46:37 PM] Swiftoak: duels
[9:46:50 PM] Gnomey: basically, if you ignore ceremony in a Redoran clanstead,
[9:46:56 PM] Gnomey: you're probably insulting at least one clan.
[9:47:24 PM] Gnomey: Which naturally calls for you and a representative of the clan to throw down,
[9:47:30 PM] Gnomey: or with as many clans as necessary,
[9:47:37 PM] Gnomey: and that having been done business can resume.
[9:48:00 PM] Gnomey: Of course, I'd imagine they'd have ways of settling minor disputes;
[9:48:24 PM] Gnomey: to a certain extent warnings and apologies need to be allowed, otherwise everyone's dead in a week.
[9:49:18 PM] Gnomey: But again, I think the Redoran should be pragmatic. Even if they're hardly ever at war, they've had time to figure out how campaigning works.
[9:49:34 PM] Gnomey: Elaborate ceremony is something to fill time when there's absolutely no reason to hurry;
[9:49:42 PM] Swiftoak: yeah
[9:49:48 PM] Swiftoak: like big meeting sor soemthing
[9:50:00 PM] Gnomey: well,
[9:50:10 PM] Gnomey: again, I'd go with it depending on in how much of a hurry they are.
[9:50:34 PM] Gnomey: If they're thumping the war drums, they'd probably have special war-time customs,
[9:50:43 PM] Gnomey: which are a lot quicker and to-the-point.
[9:50:55 PM] Gnomey: When there's no threat in sight, they let loose.
[9:51:56 PM] Gnomey: While it might be seen as rather rude in some situations, they'd probably condone people sticking to war-time customs,
[9:52:09 PM] Gnomey: if they don't have the time or will to become fully acquainted with Redoran customs,
[9:52:17 PM] Gnomey: but you need to get that right, or there will be blood.
[9:54:27 PM] Swiftoak: i think a lot of the detail with customs can be handled in the later phases?
[9:54:35 PM] Swiftoak: i just want to establish their chatacter
[9:54:41 PM] Gnomey: Ah yeah, good point.
[9:54:45 PM] Swiftoak: i'm already hitting 2000+ words and 10 pages
[9:55:01 PM] Gnomey: Though of course it goes both ways,
[9:55:11 PM] Gnomey: but to keep things simple yeah, I should avoid specifics for now.
[9:55:37 PM] Gnomey: I think the take-away point should be that the Redoran are rather down-to-earth.
[9:55:46 PM] Swiftoak: yes
[9:55:48 PM] Gnomey: They have a lot of pride, certainly, and are willing to kill for it,
[9:56:03 PM] Gnomey: but they're not idiots either, and don't expect the world to play to their tune.
[9:56:32 PM] Gnomey: Whether they like it or not, they have had to deal with Orcs, Nords, Imperials, Hlaalu and others,
[9:56:52 PM] Gnomey: and they generally haven't been provided the freedom of simply slitting their throats.
[9:57:16 PM] Gnomey: The Indoril, encountering less outlanders and people who would challenge their will in general, have a harder time of it.
[9:58:44 PM] Swiftoak: "They are proud and boastful in times of war, but also down-to-earth when it comes to duty and honour to one’s self, clan, and the nation of Morrowind. Their sense of duty will trump their personal feelings."
[9:59:03 PM] Swiftoak: sense of greater duty?
[9:59:16 PM] Gnomey: Hm. Not quite how I'd word it.
[9:59:29 PM] Gnomey: They are always proud and boastful, in their own way,
[9:59:41 PM] Gnomey: but especially in times of war can be very down-to-earth,
[9:59:56 PM] Gnomey: and know how to lay aside their pride temporarily in times of need.
[10:00:23 PM] Gnomey: The last sentence works,
[10:00:40 PM] Gnomey: but, again, I'd keep in mind that their actions do reflect on their ancestors and clan, and that goes both ways.
[10:01:05 PM] Gnomey: If they do something shameful, it shames their clan and ancestors. If you insult them, you also insult their clan and ancestors.
[10:01:38 PM] Gnomey: So by being willing to lay aside wounded pride, they're actually pretty thick-skinned.
[10:02:14 PM] Gnomey: And, again, that means that even if they ignore wounded pride for the time being, for the sake of pragmatism, they won't forget a slight quickly either.
[10:02:49 PM] Gnomey: I sort of imagine a long campaign, especially if morale is low,
[10:03:16 PM] Gnomey: with harsh words said when the warriors are short of temper,
[10:03:28 PM] Gnomey: and throughout that campaign the slights pile up, and they all remember them.
[10:03:45 PM] Gnomey: Then after the campaign is over, those slights are dealt with with a flurry of duels.
[10:04:10 PM] Gnomey: Though, again, specifically to avoid that scenario, Redoran would be careful with their words, especially when they're short of temper.
[10:12:40 PM] Swiftoak: "They are proud and boastful, but also down-to-earth when it comes to duty and honour to one’s self, clan, and the nation of Morrowind. Their sense of duty will trump their personal feelings."
[10:12:42 PM] Swiftoak: i just removed "in times of war"
[10:13:18 PM] Gnomey: Ah yeah, that fixed it.
[10:14:03 PM] Gnomey: Another thing I'd keep in mind, though I'm not sure if it would really come up in game, and I've mentioned this before in the brainstorming thread,
[10:14:15 PM] Gnomey: is that Redoran shouldn't be completely 100% serious all the time,
[10:14:19 PM] Gnomey: at least amongst themselves.
[10:14:26 PM] Swiftoak: oh no of course not
[10:14:54 PM] Gnomey: They'd probably restrain themselves when in the presence of outsiders, as I'd imagine Redoran -- like most Dunmer -- are a private sort,
[10:15:00 PM] Gnomey: even without the xenophobia.
[10:15:19 PM] Gnomey: The only reason they might seem serious, aside from the above,
[10:15:30 PM] Gnomey: is that their honour code is different from what westerners are used to,
[10:15:43 PM] Gnomey: so some western jollity would really not go over well,
[10:15:53 PM] Gnomey: or would jsut go over the heads of the Redoran, and vice versa.
[10:16:38 PM] Gnomey: In general, I think humor tends to be one of the first things that gets lost in translation.
[10:18:28 PM] Gnomey: It's not exactly a rare phenomenon for locals to view immigrants as either humourless or weird, and vice versa, after all.
[10:29:30 PM] Swiftoak: help me with summarizing all that above information
[10:29:35 PM] Swiftoak: in a single paragraph
[10:29:42 PM] Gnomey: I have to do work? :- P
[10:29:43 PM] Gnomey: Sure.
[10:29:44 PM] Swiftoak: particularly on their humour/disposition
[10:29:49 PM] Swiftoak: and how they settle scores
[10:30:09 PM] Swiftoak: well...if you want to
[10:30:19 PM] Gnomey: I'll give it a stab.
[10:30:19 PM] Swiftoak: i kind of want to have some sort of workable draft to present to the others
[10:30:25 PM] Swiftoak: oooh thanks that's cool if you can
[10:30:40 PM] Swiftoak: i think we have the major bits nailed down
[10:42:03 PM] Gnomey: Trying to get my to summarize everything in one paragraph. Who do you think you're talking to? :- P
[10:42:13 PM] Swiftoak: haha
[10:43:03 PM] Gnomey: Maybe something like this?
[10:43:03 PM] Gnomey: Redoran are very proud, and take any insult to their pride very seriously. That is because, while Redoran warriors are individuals, they represent their clan and ancestors as well. When they are honoured, their clan is honoured. When they are slighted, their clan is slighted. However, they are not stupid and inflexible. Redoran are well aware that everything has a time and a place, and will ignore slights -- at least for a while -- if the situation calls for it. Redoran are also not without levity, and don't take everything seriously. However, they tend to present a stoic facade to strangers, and for strangers it is generally better to be stoic among Redoran as well: humor doesn't translate well between alien cultures, and even when a western joke isn't interpreted as an insult by Redoran it is unlikely to be understood or go over well.
[10:43:12 PM] Gnomey: Ah, that looks so much longer in Skype...
[10:44:06 PM] Gnomey: Also, why did I use the American spelling of 'humor'?
[10:46:35 PM] Swiftoak: yes this works
[10:49:56 PM] Swiftoak: this is good
[10:49:57 PM] Swiftoak: "They are proud and boastful, but also down-to-earth when it comes to duty and honour to one’s self, clan, and the nation of Morrowind. Their sense of duty will often trump their personal feelings. "
[10:50:10 PM] Swiftoak: this is redundant then because you explain it better
[10:50:31 PM] Gnomey: Speaking of redundant:
[10:50:37 PM] Gnomey: Redoran are ultimately soldiers, and they fight for their families and Morrowind. An insult against either is an attack on what they seek to protect, but if there is a greater threat to either, such as in wartime, they will do the logical thing and focus on the greater threat until it is resolved. Both their pride and pragmatism are thus linked to their duty.
[10:50:44 PM] Gnomey: Not sure if that makes things clearer.
[10:57:02 PM] Swiftoak: i think so
[10:57:12 PM] Swiftoak: i got one more paragraph, i want toe xplain how they're not rigid, they're organic
[10:57:17 PM] Swiftoak: families aren't on top forever
[10:57:36 PM] Swiftoak: this is also evident in the clan-level themselves
[10:57:52 PM] Swiftoak: its not like sons always inherit leadership, it's a fictive-kinship right
[10:57:58 PM] Gnomey: I think that links up pretty nicely:
[10:58:09 PM] Gnomey: of course they want to bring honour to their clan by becoming war-leaders,
[10:58:35 PM] Gnomey: but by and large they learn to recognize when they're not the one for a particular job,
[10:58:50 PM] Gnomey: and will set aside their aspirations to support whoever is,
[10:58:54 PM] Gnomey: for the greater good.
[10:59:30 PM] Gnomey: That is even more so the case after the Tribunal;
[10:59:39 PM] Gnomey: before they would probably have been more likely to fight it out.
[10:59:50 PM] Gnomey: Which they still do from time to time, of course.
[11:00:37 PM] Swiftoak: yeah that's why it's hard to categorize the redoran
[11:00:50 PM] Swiftoak: which is different than how i handled the sections in hlaalu and indoril
[11:01:12 PM] Gnomey: Well, you did say the Redoran are more organic. :- P
[11:01:39 PM] Swiftoak: of course there is hierarchy, but unlike the other houses, the redoran higher-ups don't n ecessarily behave that differently than your run of the mill redoran retainers and so on
[11:01:46 PM] Swiftoak: they just have more experience and influence
[11:02:00 PM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[11:02:32 PM] Gnomey: I think they'd much more value traditions and training:
[11:02:38 PM] Gnomey: a strong warrior is good, of course,
[11:02:49 PM] Gnomey: but if he can't pass down his skills, what good is that for the clan?
[11:03:01 PM] Gnomey: It's not enough to just have a good name, you need the skills to boot.
[11:03:18 PM] Gnomey: Some clans might tend to keep higher positions,
[11:03:21 PM] Swiftoak: yeah i think NPCers will have a lot of fun with redoran
[11:03:21 PM] Swiftoak: yeah
[11:03:26 PM] Gnomey: but that's because they have the infrastructure and work for it.
[11:03:54 PM] Gnomey: Which of course can always lead to the typical drama of an heir not putting in the effort,
[11:04:05 PM] Gnomey: or not having the talent to pick up the skills of the parent.
[11:13:49 PM] Swiftoak: would it be bad wording to say the redoran sort of compete amongst themselves?
[11:14:06 PM] Gnomey: No,
[11:14:47 PM] Gnomey: but I wouldn't just leave it at that.
[11:15:15 PM] Swiftoak: i know
[11:15:22 PM] Gnomey: Yeah, then it works.
[11:17:04 PM] Gnomey: Again, they can be and often are selfish, but Redoran typically try to tie personal gain to good causes.
[11:17:35 PM] Gnomey: They would argue that they're competing to find out who is best suited to whatever they're competing over,
[11:17:47 PM] Gnomey: and whether that's true or not wouldn't really matter. It's all the same.'
[11:21:24 PM] Swiftoak: i don't know
[11:21:25 PM] Swiftoak: " Power structures within Redoran society are organic – leadership and authority are not necessarily hereditary. Even kinship itself is not necessarily defined by blood relations, but one’s prestige and skill. As such, the Redoran often compete amongst themselves, both in times of war and peace. Influential clan-families can often find themselves displaced if situational conditions are not favourable. The Redoran tend to favour those who are best suited to lead them, depending on their circumstances, both on a house-level, and on a personal level."
[11:22:37 PM] Gnomey: Well, I wouldn't say influential clan-families can often find themselves displaced;
[11:22:46 PM] Swiftoak: https://dl.dropbox.com/s/exgmmpg1g0r0o5 ... D.pdf?dl=0
[11:23:06 PM] Gnomey: I'd rather say that association with a clan can be good for some things,
[11:23:25 PM] Gnomey: but for practical matters, like who should lead a war party, only the skill of the individual is important.
[11:23:59 PM] Swiftoak: skip down to "Redoran"
[11:24:06 PM] Swiftoak: under section III
[11:24:22 PM] Swiftoak: the rest is pretty much unchanged since the last time i showed you in february
[11:24:28 PM] Swiftoak: unless you like re-reading things
[11:24:39 PM] Gnomey: Well, I don't dislike it,
[11:24:47 PM] Gnomey: and after the Indopril planning document am used to it. :- P
[11:28:49 PM] Gnomey: Yeah, looks good, though a lot of my earlier points still apply.
[11:29:08 PM] Swiftoak: yeah i think that's enough information
[11:29:14 PM] Swiftoak: you can step in with the details
[11:29:20 PM] Swiftoak: perhaps when kep does his version
[11:29:24 PM] Swiftoak: there will be room for tons of details
[11:29:34 PM] Gnomey: Haha, yeah.
[11:29:37 PM] Swiftoak: but we can give NPCers a lot of lee-way
[11:29:41 PM] Swiftoak: with the individual redoran
[11:29:49 PM] Gnomey: Yeah, that's very important.
[11:29:58 PM] Gnomey: I forgot whether I made the point on the forums,
[11:30:13 PM] Gnomey: but by and large I think planning documents should be treated as starting, and not ending points.
[11:30:38 PM] Gnomey: My dungeon conventions, for example, as supposed to establish a basis; how the standard dungeon of that type looks.
[11:30:58 PM] Gnomey: Developers would then apply their creativity to differentiate the dungeon from the mold.
[11:36:48 PM] Swiftoak: trying "While aligning oneself with an influential clan-family has its’ benefits, in times of war, one can often find themselves displaced if situational conditions are not favourable. The Redoran tend to favour those who are best suited to lead them, depending on factors such as one’s martial skill or prowess, both on a house-level, and on a personal level. "
[11:37:28 PM] Gnomey: Looks pretty good,
[11:37:42 PM] Gnomey: but again I'm not sure about saying 'disaplced';
[11:37:53 PM] Gnomey: I think they're just completely separate:
[11:38:11 PM] Gnomey: important clans don't lose anything in wartime,
[11:38:18 PM] Gnomey: they just don't factor in at all.
[11:38:55 PM] Gnomey: For instance elders might have stronger clan associations,
[11:39:08 PM] Gnomey: again largely through passing down traditions,
[11:39:11 PM] Gnomey: but also in other ways.
[11:39:23 PM] Gnomey: And those elders could be war leaders, but also often are not.
[11:39:23 PM] Swiftoak: this is getting rather complicated
[11:39:27 PM] Swiftoak:
[11:40:03 PM] Gnomey: Basically, I'm toning down the significance of the 'clan' in House Redoran. It's not very complicated. :- P
[11:40:25 PM] Swiftoak: ok then im terrible at paraphrasing your thoughts haha
[11:40:37 PM] Gnomey: In Germany, you still sometimes see bigwigs touting noble titles,
[11:40:44 PM] Swiftoak: i often forget some of TR tend to look at things very literally
[11:40:46 PM] Swiftoak: ahh
[11:40:49 PM] Gnomey: sometiems they even mroe or less gave themselves the titles to seem mroe important.
[11:41:06 PM] Gnomey: But they don't generally get into their positions because of their titles; that usually doesn't factor in.
[11:41:09 PM] Gnomey: It just adds a bit of prestige.
[11:41:31 PM] Gnomey: But in interacting with people, one might expect to be treated more formally if one has a fancy title,
[11:41:36 PM] Gnomey: so it has more of a social purpose.
[11:41:48 PM] Swiftoak: "While aligning oneself with an influential clan-family has its’ benefits, in times of war, the Redoran tend to favour those who are best suited to lead them, depending on factors such as one’s martial skill or prowess, both on a house-level, and on a personal level. "
[11:41:52 PM] Swiftoak: i just got rid of displaced
[11:42:06 PM] Swiftoak: so concept of individual is more important in war, while clans are more symbolic in a way
[11:42:10 PM] Gnomey: Haha, again, the simple solution. :- P
[11:42:13 PM] Gnomey: Yeah.
[11:42:27 PM] Gnomey: I mean, there's a lot connected to clans, but not of immediate importance.
[11:42:55 PM] Gnomey: Powerful clans would often have strong traditions, good connections, etc.
[11:43:14 PM] Gnomey: They can tutor their heirs better, especially in warfare,
[11:43:24 PM] Gnomey: and teach them all sorts of stuff that's useful in peacetime.
[11:43:35 PM] Gnomey: So a clan can give a Redoran a leg up.
[11:44:02 PM] Gnomey: Which is why it can be valuable for a Redoran to get a connection with a bigger clan: bigger clans have better infrastructure.
[11:44:22 PM] Gnomey: But that's all support; it's all there to build up the individual.
[11:44:34 PM] Gnomey: When push comes to shove, the individual is what counts.
[11:44:58 PM] Swiftoak: got it
[03/06/2015 11:46:36 PM] Swiftoak: like i get the concept, i came up with some of it
[03/06/2015 11:46:43 PM] Swiftoak: its just translating other people's thoughts
[03/06/2015 11:46:47 PM] Swiftoak: im not the best at that
[03/06/2015 11:47:09 PM] Swiftoak: and when you've been staring at a word document for awhile, everything gets all blurry at least for me
[03/06/2015 11:47:28 PM] Swiftoak: anyways i think i'm personally satisfied with the section at least for now.
[03/06/2015 11:50:35 PM] Gnomey: I know what you mean,
[03/06/2015 11:50:44 PM] Gnomey: it's why I always take so long with Skype Meeting Summaries.
[03/06/2015 11:51:09 PM] Gnomey: I've got the easy task here in just tossing out ideas. :- P
[03/06/2015 11:53:27 PM] Swiftoak: ok check the dropbox file again
[03/06/2015 11:53:31 PM] Swiftoak: think i'm done for now
[03/06/2015 11:53:38 PM] Swiftoak: the rest is just character and settlement descriptions
[03/06/2015 11:53:44 PM] Swiftoak: rather dry stuff
[03/06/2015 11:53:54 PM] Swiftoak: post that on the forum, probably with your own thoughts
[03/06/2015 11:53:59 PM] Swiftoak: should get the ball rolling
[03/06/2015 11:54:28 PM] Gnomey: Yeah, and I assume you'd be fine wih me posting an edited version of this chat?
[03/06/2015 11:54:31 PM] Swiftoak: klep would probably do a better job with this
[03/06/2015 11:54:32 PM] Swiftoak: yeah
[03/06/2015 11:54:49 PM] Gnomey: In case anyone has way too much time to kill. :- P
[...]
[12:00:15 AM] Gnomey: I'm still frankly unsure about the gro-Dhal quote, but that's probably something to be discussed in the forums.
[12:08:12 AM] Swiftoak: yeah[/spoiler]

Edit: I knew the transcript was long but still... I'll try to hurry with summarizing my opinion on the House.

[Theminimanx]

Though I have to confess to giving up halfway through, I really like what I did read. Nice job!

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

one thing i'd like to drop on this topic, would be redoran architecture/armor. it is clearly influenced by north Saharan cultures, along with bug shells and carapaces. in fact, when i first played the game, i thought redoran architecture were actually the carved out carcasses of giant bug-worms. this again ties into the desert influence. along with the fact that most concept art depicts redoran settlements in some sort of dry area. house redoran territory as it stands now, has only one ash-themed zone, the gray meadow, and that's a swamp. when-ever i think of house redoran, i invition great plains of mars-red desert, huge red dunes, contrasted by the almost pale buildings. an image shown in this concept art: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UxJWDKwRa1Q/maxresdefault.jpg

images from other franchises also give an idea of what my mind's eye sees.
https://marswillsendnomore.files.wordpr ... aze172.jpg

and if this shot of tatoowine doesn't scream redoran, idk what does.
http://a.dilcdn.com/bl/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2015/01/Tatooine.jpeg

i just want to get this out here, because i feel so strongly about it. you don't have to do anything about it, i just want to show you my vision.

[Gnomey]

Note that the first link actually represents a Dres slave camp (probably) near the border of Black Marsh, but otherwise I agree that sort of look suits House Redoran.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

though it may be a house dres plantation, it could still apply here, the red sands, and bug shell houses fit perfectly.

[Jia Ul-Suban]

(*pretends I'm not new and have credibility*)

So, I've been thinking about Redoran's relationship with Ayem a lot recently. Sure, they're Vivec's favorite, and the whole "Put yourself in harms way for the good of your people," shtick is very Vivec, but Almalexia is the Warrior Queen, and a more formal protector of Morrowind. With that in mind, what do y'all think worship of Ayem in House Redoran might look like? As far as invocations before battle and that sort of thing, I'm pretty sure they'd just pray to ALMSIVI, but it seems to me that in training (she is the patron of teachers,) study of temple texts (which I think they do more to be Good Dunmer, though they may not admit it,) and matters of policy, methinks she'd be more relevant than ol' Vehk. I might also propose that the Redoran focus less on the Saints than the Indoril, or perhaps the reverse, depending on whether you want to push that they have a more simple connection to the Temple or that they are bigger on ancestor worship than Indoril.