Why is it called Blacklight?

[Gez]

So. Blacklight. That city at the top of the western side of Morrowind. Which has been renamed Baan Malur because there was a strong consensus against the original name and a Dunmer-looking name was preferred. The Redoran capital (after Ald-ruhn).

We have retconned "Blacklight" to be simply the name the Imperials give to it, with Ban Maluur to be the proper name. The question is, then, why do the Imperials call it Blacklight rather than Ban Maalur? Is there some specific feature in the town that could justify this name? Like a lighthouse housing an eternal black flame or whatever. Something.

[Sload]

In Arena, Blacklight, Firewatch, and Ebonheart were all very clearly name because of their proximity to Red Mountain.

[rot]

As for why the Imperials call it that, I thought 'Baan' and 'Malur' were literally meant to be taken as the dunmeri words for 'black' and 'light'

[Jule]

We have retconned "Blacklight" to be simply the name the Imperials give to it, with Ban Maluur to be the proper name. The question is, then, why do the Imperials call it Blacklight rather than Ban Maalur?

Because no Imperial could possibly be bothered to pronounce Ban Maalur. Blacklight is so much more Imperial.

As for why the Imperials call it that, I thought 'Baan' and 'Malur' were literally meant to be taken as the dunmeri words for 'black' and 'light'

The meaning does not necessarily have to be maintained; sometimes it's enough to come up with a name that sounds right yet resembles the original. That's what we made when we came up with the name Ban Maalur in the first place.

[greendogo]

On a related note, are Dunmer (and perhaps Nords and Argonians) the only ones who will call it by its Dunmeri name in dialogue? I imagine that not only Imperials but denizens identifying themselves as citizens of the Empire would call it Blacklight as well. And if so, I imagine that this would piss the Dunmer off.

[Gez]

Because no Imperial could possibly be bothered to pronounce Ban Maalur. Blacklight is so much more Imperial.

Well sure, but the same explanation could be used to have them call the city Banana.

[Haplo]

Because no Imperial could possibly be bothered to pronounce Ban Maalur. Blacklight is so much more Imperial.

Well sure, but the same explanation could be used to have them call the city Banana.

But it wasn't, so...

Sload's post answers the purpose of this thread quite accurately and succinctly.

[roerich]

Well sure, but the same explanation could be used to have them call the city Banana.

But Banana is stupid, Baan Malur sounds really good.

Imperials translate citynames all the time. Blacklight is easier to remember because they know what the words mean.

[Gez]

They also know what Banana means.

If Blacklight is a translation of the name, the question still stands. Why is it named something that translates to Blacklight.

[roerich]

In Arena, Blacklight, Firewatch, and Ebonheart were all very clearly name because of their proximity to Red Mountain.

[Lud]

It's because of the UV lights at the famous rave discos of the Redoran.

How about it's based on an initial mistranslation. Baan Malur is surrounded by craggy cliffs, which darken the sky and is near enough to the ashlands to have the sun obscured by dust. Blacklight comes from a mangling of the original Dunmer name based on the place having a dark sky.

This kind of name mangling is common. I live near a park commonly called "Phoenix Park", because of colonists mishearing "fionn uisce" (bright water). It's easy to come up with any kind of misunderstood translation.

[Haplo]

Or how about we stick with the actual reason:

In Arena, Blacklight, Firewatch, and Ebonheart were all very clearly name because of their proximity to Red Mountain.

Can you guys not see Sload's post or something?

[blackbird]

Isn't the name Blacklight common Bethesda lore by now?

[Kasan Moor]

Isn't the name Blacklight common Bethesda lore by now?

It is, in fact, in Skyrim's DLC Dragonborn the Redoran councilor Morvayn of Raven Rock in Solstheim and his wife talk about the great city of Blacklight, which is now the new capital of Morrowind. But I know that here at TR it was decided long ago to rename the city to Baan Malur. To be honest, I can't understand why Bethesda didn't retcon it when they had the chance. Which proud Dunmer would ever allow a foreign named city to become the new capital of Morrowind?

But what about Tear? It's the capital of House Dres, but the name isn't Dunmer at all. Will TR rename Tear as well, or was Blacklight a special case?

[Gez]

I can't understand why Bethesda didn't retcon it when they had the chance. Which proud Dunmer would ever allow a foreign named city to become the new capital of Morrowind?

You mean like Mournhold is the current capital?


A possibility would be to have Blacklight be the name of a nearby Legion Fort, built to control the western entrance of the Inner Sea, completing the setup with Firewatch on the eastern entrance, and the two Ebonhearts in the south at the mouth of the Thirr. Fort Blacklight sounds nice, and there is [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fort_Sutch]Bethesdan[/url] [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Fort_Snowhawk]precedent[/url].

[Yeti]

Or we could completely ignore the name Blacklight, just like Bethesda never referred to Balmora "Stone Forest" in TES III. Seriously, I don't think we should spend so much effort coming up with reasons for why Baan Malur has a cookie-cutter English name on official maps. It's lame. Bethesda apparently doesn't care. We do and are changing it. End of story.

English-y names for Dunmer cities like Tear, Mournhold and Necrom work because they sound cool, and articulate an image of Dunmer-ness despite not being in their language. Blacklight comes close to this. It being thematically named for its closeness to Red Mountain as Sload pointed out, lends it some degree of cleverness. However, Baan Malur is a much better name. Just like most Dunmer replacements for old Arena era names are better than their predecessors. Let's not waste time and effort creating needless explanations something that doesn't warrant explaining.

[Nemon]

Baan Malur works. Blacklight sounds dumb.

[greendogo]

I think too much has been made over Blacklight being either a) a bad name, or b) a non-dunmer name. A lot of place-names in the provinces are either stupid or not culturally identifiable with the dominant provincial race, but this one had already been established in lore as far back as Arena. Additionally, it's going to confuse people. And not being involved in the decision, or knowing the reason, they're going to think it was arbitrary.

I'm not a Bethesda or Zenimax apologist. They're dumb. Everything they touch turns to ash and farts these days. But we can't say everything they've done is shit, after all, they did make Morrowind. But they also made Oblivion and commissioned "The Infernal City"...

In support of Blacklight: A likely reason it was called Blacklight is probably not because of Imperials, but because of its proximity to Skyrim. I'd guess Blacklight was originally a Nordic settlement, established during the time of nordic conquests. I'd even go so far as to say that, after Hlaalu, Redoran would be the least likely of the Dunmer houses to rename an ancient settlement, out of a sense of honor and tradition.

[Gnomey]

I'm pretty sure that Redorans wouldn't see much honour in safeguarding a name created by their former oppressors. Dunmer care about preserving their own tradition, not their enemies' traditions. Just like you don't see Spaniards referring to their country as "Al-Andalus".

As to a lot of placenames being stupid or culturally unidentifiable, pretty much all of the locations on Vvardenfell are neither. (Well, the first is subjective). Bethesda may have kept a lot of names over from Arena in Oblivion and Skyrim, but TR is modifying TES: III, where the developers did redo almost all of the names.

[Melchior Dahrk]

Well here's a subjective, opinionated thread! I'll just toss my opinion out and say that I think Baan Malur is a bad replacement for Blacklight. It sounds way too much like generic Dunmeri. I'd much rather see an interesting, single word name for the city if the team truly feels the need to change it from the current Blacklight. Something along the vein of Kummu, Gnisis, or Vos.

And just to respond to this statement: there ARE references to Balmora being "Stone Forest" since Savants tell us that is what it translates to.

Slay me for saying it, but I think those in favor of Baan Malur are simply accustomed to the change since, as is continually stated, "it was changed a long time ago."

edit: And just for further argument, Sload's reason for the city name is "proximity to Red Mountain." Yet TR didn't change the name of Firewatch (which in my opinion is much more generic English than Blacklight!) and Bethesda didn't change the name of Ebonheart. And yet people feel the need to retcon Blacklight? We have Black Roses, so Dunmer are already somewhat associated with the color - black, gray, and ash go together to an extent. Anyway, I'll drop off now, I doubt the name will be changed back at this point. I'll just revert it when this map comes out.

[roerich]

edit: And just for further argument, Sload's reason for the city name is "proximity to Red Mountain." Yet TR didn't change the name of Firewatch (which in my opinion is much more generic English than Blacklight!) and Bethesda didn't change the name of Ebonheart.

Those are both Imperial towns though.

I can only speak for myself, but I personally really like the name Baan Malur, and think it fits the look and feeling of the city. I think in this instance, both using the old name or making up a new one can be justified, unlike with Old Ebonheart and Firewatch.

[MoonAndStar]

I really Like Baan Malur too. Like Roerich says, I think it fits the looks of the city: it sounds ancient and imposing. Just my opinion.

[Yeti]

Besides being Imperial, which sort of excuses it's two-part English name, Firewatch comes across to me as more aesthetically pleasing than Blacklight for some reason. I'm not entirely sure why, but perhaps it's because the "watch" part of the name actively describes its physical appearance -the large tower overlooking the Inner Sea. The name Blacklight doesn't really reflect any major feature in the city's current design.

Honestly, I fail to see how this discussion serves any constructive purpose. Baan Malur is the best name TR has ever come up with for anything in our entire history, in my opinion. How's that for being subjective and opinionated!

[Melchior Dahrk]

How's that for being subjective and opinionated!

Me gusta.

[Gez]

Baan Malur is the best name TR has ever come up with for anything in our entire history, in my opinion.

I don't see how. The n-m sequence is hard to pronounce fluidly and in a natural language would have tended to be replaced either by an n-n sequence ("Baannalur"), m-m sequence ("Baammalur"), or the addition of a vowel to separate the consonants without breaking the fluidity of the name ("Baanamalur").

On the other hand, it's not Bal Muhrsin or whatever it was named before, which was truly atrocious.

[rot]

I don't see how. The n-m sequence is hard to pronounce fluidly

[img]http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTA3NjI3NzUwNTleQTJeQWpwZ15BbWU4MDA0ODc4MDAx._V1._CR0,0,2400,2400_SS80_.jpg[/img]

Michael Mack approves this message, Dumner!

[Rats]

in a natural language would have tended to be replaced either by an n-n sequence ("Baannalur"), m-m sequence ("Baammalur")

Now that's not quite true.

Being hard to pronounce would of course affect the pronunciation, but not the spelling. From the top of my head I can come up with a dozen examples of n+m sequence in my own language in which the spelling hasn't been altered though the pronunciation might fluctuate towards either /m/ or /n/.

An uninspired example from the English speaking world would be to look at the way Greenwich is spelled and pronounced (not "/green+witch/" but "/grinage/"). Spelling doesn't necessarily reflect the pronunciation at all. Baan Malur could and most likely would be pronounced in one of the ways you suggest, but the spelling Baan Malur looks much better IMHO.

[/half-assed linguistics]

[Jule]

Gez, I think your stance is invalid because:
a) not all of us are native English speakers (which means that I at least don't apply English pronunciation to Dunmeri words found ingame)
b) you're trying to argue the grammatical and linguistic correctness of a made-up word coming from a fictional language that lacks any grammatical rules

[gro-Dhal]

Also Baan Malur is perfectly easy to say. As is Denmark, for example

[Sload]

Baan Malur is the best name TR has ever come up with for anything in our entire history, in my opinion.

I don't see how. The n-m sequence is hard to pronounce fluidly and in a natural language would have tended to be replaced either by an n-n sequence ("Baannalur"), m-m sequence ("Baammalur"), or the addition of a vowel to separate the consonants without breaking the fluidity of the name ("Baanamalur").

On the other hand, it's not Bal Muhrsin or whatever it was named before, which was truly atrocious.

please stop posting untrue things itt

[Haplo]

An uninspired example from the English speaking world would be to look at the way Greenwich is spelled and pronounced (not "/green+witch/" but "/grinage/"). Spelling doesn't necessarily reflect the pronunciation at all. Baan Malur could and most likely would be pronounced in one of the ways you suggest, but the spelling Baan Malur looks much better IMHO.

[/half-assed linguistics]

The worst case of this I can think of in the English language is Worcester sauce, which should be pronounced phonetically as "War-chest-er" but for some reason is pronounced "Wist-a-sure" or "Wist-a-shire" in the bible belt.

[Katze]

That's pretty much how the town of Worcester and the sauce is said in the UK, maybe more like "wusster". See also Gloucester being said like "gloss-ter"

[tkl7]

That's how it is pronounced in Massachusetts as well. More like Wooster or Wusster.

[cabal]

My dad's side of the family pronounces it warsh-ta-shire.

[Glisp]

Sorry if I'm reviving a dead topic, but I just want to point something out regarding Blacklight and its appearance in Arena. While, yes Arena was more randomized the name blacklight is imperialish. Yes, I know that's not a good excuse to use the name but hear me out.


I think Blacklight is a Garrison town, just like Firewatch

[img]http://images.uesp.net/7/78/AR-map-Morrowind_%28annotated%29.jpg[/img]

Take a look at this map of Morrowind from Arena. Blacklight's position almost mirrors that of Firewatch. This would make sense if they were both garrisons. Both names are imperial and they're clearly supposed to be large cities. Now take a look at Kragenmoor. It's also supposed to be a large city as well but the name is more dunmeri.

Yes, Arena is a rather poor example, but it does bring the question up: "What kind of imperial presence is in Blacklight.

If we take a look at the above map, we'll notice a very interesting thing. Firewatch, Ebonheart (old Ebonheart in TR), and Blacklight make a triangle. While that may not seem like a big deal, think of it like this:

Imperial Legion stations could monitor key Vvardenfell locations from these three points. Which would make sense for Blacklight to be a Garrison town.

If not a Garrison town, then probably something like Gnisis.

[Rats]

Arena's take on the province was heavily retconned in Morrowind, and the settlement formerly known as Blacklight was made a Redoran city -- not an Imperial one.

I will lock this topic for now since the question why Blacklight is Baan Malur has been answered. May the debate on whether the original name should be entirely forgotten continue whenever we really start working on the northern half of Velothis.