Documents on the first page of this thread are just ideas, not final.
The structure of the final document:
1. General Character.
What is this house like? What impression are we trying to create when we represent this house? What is its in-character history and current function? What unique elements or structures does this house have that other houses don't?
2. Settlement Spaces.
What are settlements from this house like? What is the architecture set & how should it be used in the CS? What buildings do some or all settlements of this house need to have that other settlements don't?
What are the Tier I & II settlements of this faction each like? How are they different from one another? What is their key element that gives them purpose from a game/story perspective?
3. NPCs.
What are the NPCs in this house's territory more likely to be like - including house-kin, non-house dunmer & outlanders? What portion of characters are of each type? What kinds of identities or associations can certain characters associated with this faction-trope or in its settlements be given that others can't?
What are some of the major characters of this faction, or major character-groupings, that will be important to the quest? What are they like?
4. Faction Quest Storyline.
What is this house's storyline? What are the conflicts that drive it? What end goal is it trying to achieve? How does it demonstrate the house's character?
This house is much less developed than the other houses so this .pdf is briefer.
Please read and then give your input. There is a lot of work to be done on this house.
I would quibble with this as, in vanilla, Redoran is described as representing Vivec, Telvanni as representing Soth Sil, Indoril representing Almalexia, Hlaalu the future of the Dunmer and Dres their past.
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
well dont bother because it doesnt matter and thats not what im talking about and you forgot there are six houses and especially since youll notice theres a similar line in the design doc for each house and each tribunal has been assigned 2 houses and i am afraid of putting it there because when TR isnt arguing about stupid tiny details its abandoning all subtlety to turn slight deviations from the norm into absolute, black and white divisions at the most extreme, so please actually just ignore what i just wrote because you will all do it wrong and someday be saying stupid shit like that there cant be any shrines to almalexia in redoran territory because their tribunal is vivec
Last edited by Sload on Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
- A key real-world reference for the Dres is the Russian Mafia. Genteel opulence combined with moral corruption. Dres councillors behave like mob bosses or oligarchs.
- The Dres don't care for outsiders, but they're capitalists at heart and welcome anyone with money. Consequently Tear is a sort of Casablanca where exiled Altmer aristocrats rub shoulders with Imperial agents on clandestine missions to the Sload. The Empire's laws don't count for much.
- The architecture is very cyberpunk (grey concrete-like buildings, neon lights and signs, maybe even wasp helipads) and it would be cool if we could play with this idea a bit more (without going all-out sci-fi of course).
gro-Dhal wrote:- A key real-world reference for the Dres is the Russian Mafia. Genteel opulence combined with moral corruption. Dres councillors behave like mob bosses or oligarchs.
yeah, though all of the houses are basically organized crime syndicates
- The Dres don't care for outsiders, but they're capitalists at heart and welcome anyone with money. Consequently Tear is a sort of Casablanca where exiled Altmer aristocrats rub shoulders with Imperial agents on clandestine missions to the Sload. The Empire's laws don't count for much.
love this but it only helps build tear, not the dres as a whole
- The architecture is very cyberpunk (grey concrete-like buildings, neon lights and signs, maybe even wasp helipads) and it would be cool if we could play with this idea a bit more (without going all-out sci-fi of course).
go on with this?
----
key questions are:
-what are the basic deals of dres and sload trade?
-how did the dres learn to 'till the salt'? (possibly, answer this and the previous question together)
-how can vampires be cool instead of black eyeliner cliches? consider looking to dagoth vampires for inspiration
-what ways are dres traditions different from dunmer traditions?
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
Sload wrote:
-what are the basic deals of dres and sload trade?
-how did the dres learn to 'till the salt'? (possibly, answer this and the previous question together)
These salt flats would have been undersea once... so maybe the Deshaan territory was loaned by the Sload? Who now want it back (with interest)? It may have been the only way to avoid an epic famine- perhaps started by a Sload-engineered crop failure- back in the 1st Era.
When I say they want it back, I mean sinking-of-Atlantis style
- The architecture is very cyberpunk (grey concrete-like buildings, neon lights and signs, maybe even wasp helipads) and it would be cool if we could play with this idea a bit more (without going all-out sci-fi of course).
go on with this?
"The Dres are proud of their architectural prowess, clearly shown in their vertigo inducing towers and grand structures - effectively housing slave pens, workshops and trade markets. Large walls and solid structures loom over the crowded streets of Tear, in size and grandness only matched by the divine cantons of Vivec and the white gold tower of Cyrodiil. Guards patrolling the bridges and high walls keep order in the city. The grey colors of the Dres, illuminated by the blue flourescent bug lamps makes the Dres capital a glowing beacon at night, visible from deep down in the jungle border near Black Marsh - and far into the seas towards Akavir."
I dunno. Without going all Blade Runner on us, I think a little metro punk thing could be nice to develop.
Sload wrote:
-how can vampires be cool instead of black eyeliner cliches? consider looking to dagoth vampires for inspiration
It's clear there are various different phenomena that are lumped together as 'vampirism' in Tamriel.
What if Dres vampirism represents some sort of threefold blessing from the Anticipations? Azura makes them strong after dusk and weak after dawn, Mephala allows them to cheat their fate by extending their lives indefinitely and Boethiah... something something.
Vampirism in this case is a sign of devotion to the three daedra and is associated with saintliness (which is not the same as goodness). Veloth was the first of these vampires in Dres lore. He learned it from Boethiah.
Edit: Ash vampires are a perversion of this concept, as Dagoth's religious background is similar to that of the Dres
Regarding deals with the Sload, it could be interesting to make it something that the Dres themselves would be ashamed of; providing the use of the spirits of some of their ancestors for Sload necromantic purposes. Only very few Dres would know of this. The Dres are, by modern standards, evil, but having them hiding something that they themselves would balk at is interesting. It could be interesting for the service the Dres provided being something that modern people would consider mundane and harmless (think organ domation) but the Dres would consider blasphemy.
Throwing things out there:
-Patronymics or matronymics instead of surnames. Fits in with ancestor worship. The more noble you are in the house, the more levels of ancestors you reference. As the player would get adopted into a family, they would end up with a patr/matronymic too.
-In order to reconcile xenophobia and mercantilism, it would be interesting to draw sharp divisions between friendhsips (not with filthy n'wahs) and trade (as long as your gold is good).
Last edited by Lud on Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
Sload wrote:that reminds me that i want dres cantons to be hexagonal
This is excellent.
It would be interesting to emphasize the differences between Dres religion and mainstream Dunmer beliefs by giving them a different important number (instead of 3), which could be worked in in various ways (sides on a canton, seats on the council, principles of whatever for something else, etc).
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
Hey, you used Chap'thiil for something.
I always just assumed it meant "guard" in the pre-release Dunmer language. My issue with using that word though (I know you didn't want nit-picking.. but you did want input, so whatever) is that there is NO other example in Dunmer language of the double "ii." That's more of a Khajiit thing.
Actually, I take that back. There is ONE example of the double "ii" and it's in one obscure Ashlander's name: Elumabi Maliiran. And I'd attribute that to a possible typo since -iran seems to be a common Dunmer suffix, and mal- a common prefix and infix. But the combination "mali" is not found anywhere else. Just something to note, I still like the reference to the obscure texts.
As for everything else? I definitely want to see some aspect of the Dunmer play itself out as Metropunk. And I think the Dres would be a good outlet for that.
Melchior Dahrk wrote:there is NO other example in Dunmer language of the double "ii." That's more of a Khajiit thing.
I don't think Cyrodiil is a Khajiit name either.
I think the double-i is just a generic Bethesda thing, because since it's basically never used in English, it looks very exotic. As far as cheap fantasy spelling goes, I much prefer a gratuitously doubled i to the terrible disease of apostrophitis. So, chapthiil or chap-thiil, alright. Chap'thiil, though, that word can go fuck itself.
since they won't be called 'vampires' anyway they don't have to function the same way and anything goes:
- the Dres 'vampires' are "noble mages" blessed by boethiah, who grants them an immortality of sorts so long as they only feed on kosher consecrated food (= they have to ritually welcome and convert others into their order before eating them = vampire cannibals)
- or they feed on dreams! (slight parallel with dagoth)
- or all the priesthood (/just recrutors?) for the daedra cults legally go door-to-door to do their holy business and "test" candidates (feed, eat or convert as they see fit)
How about the Dres try to balance and weave their deals with several or all involved entities to get away with it and that's how they've been surviving so far, they do their best to make the slippery slope come full circle though it'll spin out of control eventually
- Aralor was owed to the Hist but owed himself to the Daedra and possibly others too, which is why the Hist let that one go but kept the fine print for later
- all altars and channels to the bad daedra been confiscated, since some negociations with them went so bad their consequences are told of in unaware tales (day of no light, but no everyone in the city was really just blind)
or still active through petty details (all Dres are unable to sing in tune trololol, somewhere there's a muzzled dude who can't speak... or no: the head of a house, who commands respect through power as their mere whispers make the ground tremble ("headothil speaks with the voice of the ancestors!!1"), though none other know that actually speaking would tear that person apart from within
-> that's the Head head of Dres. A bluff of illusory control
edit re:cyberpunk,
Private corp guards for each minor House?
also small amounts of strong contrasting colours,
Have the Dres wear lots of multicoloured magical enhancement doodads (earrings! enchanted earrings!)
gro-Dhal wrote:It's clear there are various different phenomena that are lumped together as 'vampirism' in Tamriel.
rot wrote: since they won't be called 'vampires' anyway they don't have to function the same way and anything goes:
IDK what rot's talking about; if it isn't called vampire and it doesn't act like vampire, you're just making up this new thing for Dres that doesn't satisfy the need of making vampire cool.
But I meant what I said. Make vampires cool. The thing with the blood drinking and the sun hiding and the pact with Molag Bal. Not make a new, cool thing that is similar to vampires.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
They'd totally be vampires. The rumor is vampires. Only that they call that a religious misnomer ("Not necromancy, you ignorant s'wit, it's an honorable bonewalker!"), even though they are totally in the wrong about it not being vampirism ("Daedra blessed it, therefore it's not a contradiction, so nyehh")
HoonDing mongori tiavo; Lemansha temin diang hibat.
The Hoon Ding guides us; all others can Make Way.
Maybe the Sload taught the now leading Dres house some unholy necromancy so they could force more powerful, older ancestors who'd lost interest to come back and help them / show approval for their ascension /... without the help of other ancestors. Would need a twist to explain why they'd seek or accept that from the sload rather than any other necromancers
Or they taught them how to make the more inhospitable areas of their territory, making them impossible to cultivate by others than the Dres [minor house] so they could expland their territory,
Or (a mcguffin for the Dres plotline) they gave them something they kept and haven't used...
and in return took a bonewalker, which... would make the Temple really mad if they did something to it? so they have knowledge they can't use and are getting blackmailed
or bought that with a shitload of Argonians they didn't yet own and made the Hist even more pissed
Vampires: making them pimps and whores would be funny but coincidentally feel a bit too much like trying to shoehorn the Sermons in. :<
One of the reasons the Dres are so into ancestor worship is that the patriarch(s) are--unbeknownst to all--the exact same people who founded the House in the first place.
The Ordinators for the Dres variant of the Temple are vampires? obviously they wear a mask, are secretive... you see where this is going. Main molag bal, throw in the blessings from other daedra as hints, and have very few of them so it doesn't cheapen the 'shades of ordinator' thing
Rats wrote:One of the reasons the Dres are so into ancestor worship is that the patriarch(s) are--unbeknownst to all--the exact same people who founded the House in the first place.
The more you think about it the better it sounds, with the obvious limitation (how'd they not notice they're missing their top ancestors) serving as a quest hook
The Hist are exokalpic alien monsters that got trapped in Nirn and, due to differences in physics models, are being improperly rendered as trees. They are slowly unravelling Nirn's earthbones to make it compatible with their full existence. The Argonians are their first project, but they also made Kothri in an attempt to infiltrate other societies.
Why is everyone ignoring this? Did I miss some previous Hist lore? This is new, to me at least, but seems like important news in regards to the "lore community", and the Hist mystery.
It's new stuff AFAIK. 'Unofficial' but MK endorsed, for what it's worth. Seems like an extrapolation from previous Hist theories. I like it, but it's not something we need to make a big deal of as we're working from the Dunmer perspective here, and they won't know about it.
It's not that important when we think of what TR will do with it, I agree. But it seems like important information in relation to the general lore, especially as it has got the MK stamp of approval.
So, I'm a bit off-topic here, just thought it was pretty exciting, and some solid lore.
The Hist are exokalpic alien monsters that got trapped in Nirn and, due to differences in physics models, are being improperly rendered as trees. They are slowly unravelling Nirn's earthbones to make it compatible with their full existence. The Argonians are their first project, but they also made Kothri in an attempt to infiltrate other societies.
Why is everyone ignoring this? Did I miss some previous Hist lore? This is new, to me at least, but seems like important news in regards to the "lore community", and the Hist mystery.
Please try not to share it too widely though. This is not the way that mysteries are supposed to be revealed.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
Posting these thoughts here for the sake of future discussion:
Note how there's a theme going where all the Great House heads have in some way abandoned their House or are on their way out. The Grand Ascendant of the Indoril is dying or dead. The Archmagister of the Telvanni is absorded in a world of his own creation. Bolvyn Venim of House Redoran has dragged his council to Vvardenfell, on a drawn-out suicide mission against an enemy they cannot possibly beat. The leader of the Hlaalu might well be on constant trade missions to Cyrodiil. (Or take the example of Vedam Dren who became an Imperial duke and fully integrated himself into the Imperial power hierarchy, turning his back on the Dunmer.) Note also how in each of these cases, the state of the leader broadly reflect that of the House at large.
This is a conscious choice that Sload and I have tried to implement in each of the Great House concepts. Naturally, Dres would have to follow suit. I propose it does in the following way.
In keeping with the Faustian theme described by Sload for House Dres, its leader has a personal deal with some other entity. The time is coming when they have to uphold their end of the bargain and their "abandonment" is in their vain efforts to forestall that time. Picture them hiding away in a sweltering, shuttered room, waiting for the inevitable moment that the devil comes calling for their soul.
In my opinion, the obvious other party in this case would be the Hist. This way we could have them in their estate, surrounded by hundreds of mistreated Hist agents that they are secretly becoming more and more terrified of. What the leader was supposed to have gotten out of the deal is not entirely clear to me yet.
The player's ascent in the House could perhaps be aided by some shadowy advisor, who, as it turns out, was just some weird collection agent trying to get close to the House head. Maybe include some sort of hint, like the head somehow had to seal the deal by becoming mute and the "collection agent" speaks with their voice, which of course nobody but the mortified head themselves understands.
The last stages of the quests could deal with the player delivering the leader or renegotiating the terms of the agreement. Links should be made to the future raid of the Argonians in the Red Year. Perhaps the player lessened the damage or caused by refusing to give into demands.
Other random idea:
Even more so than other Dunmer, the Dres are taciturn and unapproachable. Even rather insignificant things are considered hard-won knowledge that can only be shared within the Great House or even vassal minor House or family. Faction members will often refuse to give directions and asking them about "a little secret" will likely piss them off.
What role does magic play for House Dres? I suppose you could say magic is important to the Telvanni, not really relevant to the Redoran or the Hlaalu and more Templar/Healer/Paladin-esque to the Indoril. What about the Dres? Maybe magic has a more practical purpose with respect to enslavement and agriculture. Or, to reference more of a cyberpunk theme, crops are genetically engineered through magic for optimal production, and slaves are psychologically programmed/brainwashed to do their bidding. (This in a more subtle and less obvious way).
As for the faustian theme, what if most of the big players in House Dres all achieved power in some faustian way, not just the Head of the House. Dres strike me as a house of dealmakers.
As for the Head of the House I was thinking it could be a woman who has been around for a long, long time. Not necessarily physically powerful or even magically powerful, but with an economic mind. What if the faustian deal she made was with Azura, and not with the Hist. (The Hist can still feature through a faustian deal of some other Dres noble).
1) Azura doesn't get a lot of attention except for in the main quest
2) Azura is the anticipation of Sotha Sil and Sotha Sil is aligned with Dres
3) Although she is never overtly deceitful, the way Azura always gets what she desires in the end, and how titanic events always follow her interventions, can be portrayed as disturbing. Her followers acknowledge that she is "cruel but wise". (UESP.net/wiki/Lore:Azura)
The idea would be that she made a deal with Azura, who taught her/the Dres how to 'till the salt', which was of enormous importance to the Dres. Thanks to this deal the Dres were able to prosper as a faction. So the Head of the House really did a solid right there. Of course, Azura wants something in return, and the other Dres councillors are kinda selfish and refuse to help the Head of the House. Can't think of the thing Azura might have wanted in return, though.
The rejection of luxury seems like an odd contradiction, given they also reject 'honest' labour by delegating it to slaves. What do they do with themselves?
The combination of that lack of materialism with the idea that the original Daedra are possibly superior to their worldly manifestations smacks of lingering gnosticism, which connects them to the other elven races.
Is there are reason a few of the ranks don't have translated names? That's without precedent in any of the other houses or factions.
I like 'Magnate' as a Dres rank, but just because I think it's a cool word.
gro-Dhal wrote:The rejection of luxury seems like an odd contradiction, given they also reject 'honest' labour by delegating it to slaves. What do they do with themselves?
The Dres idea of 'honest' labor may be quite different from our own. Perhaps they don't see menial labor as worthy. Dres society may be a sort of cross between the philosopher kings described by Plato, the Spartan/Japanese/Indian caste systems and a debt based feudalism between various minor houses. The Dres minor houses would rule over the mass of unwashed slaves with each member and/or vassal of the house having specific roles (from soldiers to priests to craftsmer). The minor houses would then be linked through a complex system of patronage and debt until you reach the House council.
@gro-Dhal: I imagine many of the ranks are left untranslated to further show the Dres adherence to tradition. They refuse to even translate their faction's higher ranks into everyday Tamreilic.
There is also, of course, the rule of coolness to consider.
-------
On a related note, would it be possible to make a non-spoiler versions of these Great House summaries to post at the official forums? I'd really like to see us start sharing some of our lore discussions with the community to help increase interest in the storytelling aspect of our mod. Right now all we do is occasionally post pretty screenshots without shedding light on the lore considerations behind them.
Basically I'm thinking of something like the [url=http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?577585-Preview-The-Areuakoi&s=3313231eb465634ace08b27905a05206]"Faction previews"[/url] the Total War mod Europa Barbarorum does. Except not as graciously long.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
What is this house like? What impression are we trying to create when we represent this house? What is its in-character history and current function? What unique elements or structures does this house have that other houses don't?
2. Settlement Spaces.
What are settlements from this house like? What is the architecture set & how should it be used in the CS? What buildings do some or all settlements of this house need to have that other settlements don't?
What are the Tier I & II settlements of this faction each like? How are they different from one another? What is their key element that gives them purpose from a game/story perspective?
3. NPCs.
What are the NPCs in this house's territory more likely to be like - including house-kin, non-house dunmer & outlanders? What portion of characters are of each type? What kinds of identities or associations can certain characters associated with this faction-trope or in its settlements be given that others can't?
What are some of the major characters of this faction, or major character-groupings, that will be important to the quest? What are they like?
4. Faction Quest Storyline.
What is this house's storyline? What are the conflicts that drive it? What end goal is it trying to achieve? How does it demonstrate the house's character?
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
Dropping some notes on 1. General Character Some of this reiterates stuff from elsewhere, some is expanded and some is new.
House Dres is the Great House in which the idea and practice of Minor Houses (i.e. expanded families and similar clan structures) still persist the strongest. (NOTE: They should obviously never be referred to by the Dres as 'Minor' Houses.)
The distribution of power in House Dres is determined by a complex subordination system of its constituent clans. As befits the Dres, the basis of this subordination is a kind of institutionalized indebtedness. A House that in some way owes something to another also owes allegiance to that House until its debt is paid off, which can last many years or centuries. Through time, many of these 'debts' have become mythologized and indefinite, and their origins are mostly an etiology for the de facto subordination of one clan to an other.
Incidentally, the above allows for interesting dynamics with regard to quest givers. In the early stages of the player's ascent in the House, it would be impossible to find any quest giver that the player or their clan does not already owe something to. In the Dres mindset, it would be absurd for some random person to give you an assignment, because the player would basically be doing them a favor, which means they gain power over that person and their clan if they deliver. In the later stages of the quest line, the opposite would be true, where people must come to you for help, which allows you to build your political power. Eventually, the current Dres leader might be in a tight spot and might have no one else to turn to.
There's a funny contradiction in the notion that the people of House Dres are so attached to their clans, but the outside world still perceives them as a single Great House. I propose that House Dres is in fact a (non-existent/abstract/defunct/other) clan to which all the clans owe something. The secret of tilling the salt would be an obvious contender, given that it is so crucial to the Dres way of life. Since knowledge is rarely shared among the Dres, the dissemination of this secret among all of the clans is a generosity that none of them can ever repay.
How much of a relationship should there be between the culture of the Dres and that of the Ashlanders? Cos the [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Mabrigash#Mabrigash]Mabrigash[/url] is another potential angle on the whole vampire thing
re:Mabrigash & ashlander connection - if we delve into the history of House Dres it may be interesting to explore the turning point when a bunch of separate clans became what is today's Dres Confederacy.
Say, when the Sload offered to teach the clans how to till the salts of the Deshaan in exchange for <...>, there was a lot of debate on whether or not the Dunmer should accept that deal. The coven of Wise Women of the various clans, normally not involving themselves in politics, feared the Sload were trying to trick the Dres and urged the assembled Khans to reject the proposition of the Sload. In an unprecedented decision the Khans ignored the advice of the coven and went ahead and struck the deal anyway. The Deshaan bloomed, the Dres praised their Khans and ridiculed their Wise Women. This led to House Dres becoming a patriarchy unlike any other in Morrowind, the office of Wise Woman has disappeared and it has been ages since a woman held any position of significance in the House.
Wouldn't that imply that the deal with the Sload would be known among certain non-Dres Dunmer, such as Ashlanders (at least some of the Wise Women), certain Telvanni Wizards and possibly the Temple higher-ups?
That would also suggest that the Dres Confederacy did not originally have a House structure, and was founded at a time when southeastern Morrowind was inhabited by clans, rather than Houses.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the idea, but it would have a really big impact on the identity of House Dres.
I don't know, I haven't thought it through that much. It's partially just an excuse for proper sexism because that's not something we've really explored on a structural basis before - I think that Dres being heavily patriarchal could be interesting since we're very much striving for a more balanced situation in the other Houses. I'm just throwing this out there so that you guys can maybe do something with it as I don't have time to develop any of it.
Besides, what's the difference between a House and a clan, anyway. I'd imagine that at that point in history the two concepts weren't nearly as different as they are now.
