This thread is for establishing consensus in regard to the background lore. Morrowind contains a great deal of backstory, much of which is only hinted at, much of which TR has expanded on in its narrative, but without documenting it.
Here are some examples of questions this thread is an attempt to resolve. What do characters of such-and-such sort think happened at Red Mountain? What can we say about what happened to the Dwemer? How many times, and when, has Morrowind been invaded by Akaviri or Cyrodiils? What specifically happened during Tiber Septim's conquest of Morrowind, and what were the consequences of the Armitsice that ended it? What - in basic terms - is the theology of the Temple and other Chimeri religious groups? Same for the Nine Divines faiths. What created the Inner Sea? What causes ashlands?
I'm sure many more will arise in the course of this thread. Hopefully we can find a way to establish consensus and then document our consensus in a compiled file.
Establishing Background Lore
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Establishing Background Lore
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
I got one!
What created the Inner Sea? What did Morrowind look like before the Inner Sea existed?
Original Content:
There is a universal sense that the Inner Sea did not always exist. Stories about this are derived from two vanilla texts.
From Varieties of Faith in the Empire:
I have heard it passed around that the Inner Sea was created when Vivec flooded Morrowind to kill the Akiviri invaders, but this is not actually found in the original content. The only claim about the creation of the Inner Sea in the original content is that Kagrenac created it when he activated the Numidium during the Battle of Red Mountain.
Both of these sources are malleable. Varieties of Faith is a western account from an author not familiar with Morrowind and the event it describes is otherwise completely unattested - not only Vivec's flooding Morrowind, but the entire invasion from Akavir. It could be written off as confusion. On the other hand, the Thirty-Six Lessons are significantly divergent from other histories, and in the Battle of Red Mountain there are many other histories, none of which mention Kagrenac creating the Inner Sea. The only restraint that this may create is on our ability to make claims about the origins of the Inner Sea is this: can the Temple claim a different narrative of it than the Thirty-Six Lessons?
Our Possibilities:
1- What was it like before the Inner Sea?
A great valley ran down the heart of Morrowind - from Baan Malur to Narsis. This was the old heartland of Morrowind. The Thirr ran down the heart of it to its mouth at what are now the Straits of Malur. Rivers like the Odai were tributaries of the Thirr, the waters of the Ascadian Isles were great lakes. What is now the eastern Inner Sea - around Sadrith Mora & Firewatch - was then a rocky highland region.
The Inner sea essentially dropped the land around what is now the island Vvardenfell, creating a sea. The mouth of the Thirr was now near Ebonheart, with everything below it flooded by seawater.
2- How was the Inner Sea created?
I think keeping somewhat similar to the Sermon narrative but incorporating some of the elements of the Varieties of Faith's account of Vivec's miracle would be a good idea.
In this narrative, which is the official Temple account, Kagrenac's unseemly gestures destroyed the heartland of Veloth, lowering it below sea level. Each Tribune then played their role in combating this tactic:
-Sotha Sil, whose domain is "the selfishness of the sea," brought up leviathans of the deep, clockwork dreugh and other monsters, to ravage the Dwarven armies.
-Almalexia, whose domain is "the splendor of stars," brought the sky low, made the hearth cry sweet water, and created a refuge for the Dunmer.
-Vivec, whose domain is "the middle air," taught the Dunmer how to breath water while they waited out the flood.
This was one of the major maneuvers in the Battle of Red Mountain, and when the land settled and the flooding subsided, the Inner Sea wascreated.
What created the Inner Sea? What did Morrowind look like before the Inner Sea existed?
Original Content:
There is a universal sense that the Inner Sea did not always exist. Stories about this are derived from two vanilla texts.
From Varieties of Faith in the Empire:
- Vivec (Master of Morrowind): Warrior-poet god of the Dunmer. Vivec is the invisible keeper of the holy land, ever vigilant against the dark gods of the Volcano. He/she has saved the Dunmeri people from certain death on numerous occasions, most notably when he/she taught them how to breathe water for a day so that he/she could flood Morrowind and kill the Akaviri invaders, ca. 2E 572.
- Dwemeri high priest Kagrenac then revealed that which he had built in the image of Vivec. It was a walking star, which burnt the armies of the Triune and destroyed the heartland of Veloth, creating the Inner Sea.
I have heard it passed around that the Inner Sea was created when Vivec flooded Morrowind to kill the Akiviri invaders, but this is not actually found in the original content. The only claim about the creation of the Inner Sea in the original content is that Kagrenac created it when he activated the Numidium during the Battle of Red Mountain.
Both of these sources are malleable. Varieties of Faith is a western account from an author not familiar with Morrowind and the event it describes is otherwise completely unattested - not only Vivec's flooding Morrowind, but the entire invasion from Akavir. It could be written off as confusion. On the other hand, the Thirty-Six Lessons are significantly divergent from other histories, and in the Battle of Red Mountain there are many other histories, none of which mention Kagrenac creating the Inner Sea. The only restraint that this may create is on our ability to make claims about the origins of the Inner Sea is this: can the Temple claim a different narrative of it than the Thirty-Six Lessons?
Our Possibilities:
1- What was it like before the Inner Sea?
A great valley ran down the heart of Morrowind - from Baan Malur to Narsis. This was the old heartland of Morrowind. The Thirr ran down the heart of it to its mouth at what are now the Straits of Malur. Rivers like the Odai were tributaries of the Thirr, the waters of the Ascadian Isles were great lakes. What is now the eastern Inner Sea - around Sadrith Mora & Firewatch - was then a rocky highland region.
The Inner sea essentially dropped the land around what is now the island Vvardenfell, creating a sea. The mouth of the Thirr was now near Ebonheart, with everything below it flooded by seawater.
2- How was the Inner Sea created?
I think keeping somewhat similar to the Sermon narrative but incorporating some of the elements of the Varieties of Faith's account of Vivec's miracle would be a good idea.
In this narrative, which is the official Temple account, Kagrenac's unseemly gestures destroyed the heartland of Veloth, lowering it below sea level. Each Tribune then played their role in combating this tactic:
-Sotha Sil, whose domain is "the selfishness of the sea," brought up leviathans of the deep, clockwork dreugh and other monsters, to ravage the Dwarven armies.
-Almalexia, whose domain is "the splendor of stars," brought the sky low, made the hearth cry sweet water, and created a refuge for the Dunmer.
-Vivec, whose domain is "the middle air," taught the Dunmer how to breath water while they waited out the flood.
This was one of the major maneuvers in the Battle of Red Mountain, and when the land settled and the flooding subsided, the Inner Sea wascreated.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
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Yeti
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I'm in favor of your merged account, Sload. These miracles performed by the Tribunal would also help explain why the newly changed Chimer accepted them so readily as Gods.
I might try to tackle the one about the cause of ashlands. We'll see what I come up with.
I might try to tackle the one about the cause of ashlands. We'll see what I come up with.
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To throw another version of events out, which I thought of after the topic was discussed before:
Kagrenac sinks part of Morrowind under the sea, and the ocean floods in, creating the Inner Sea. After killing the Dwemer and attaining godhood, the Tribunal then suck the water out again. They do not raise the land, though, and it is still below sea level. At either end of the basin there are [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/mwbks_tslov_spiked_water.jpg]cliffs of water[/url].
Roughly two-and-a-half millennia later, along come the Akiviri invaders. Vivec teaches the people of Morrowind how to breathe underwater, and the Tribunal let the ocean spill into the basin of the Inner Sea once more. Almalexia makes the sky/rocks/everything weep, increasing the flood so that it sweeps over all of Morrowind and, of course, the Akaviri army.
Sotha Sil then does something (punches a hole in the ground?) to make the excess water recede, pulling the Akaviri into the Inner Sea. Some waterbreathing Dunmer who had become accustomed to swimming underwater lie in wait there for the wildly flailing Akaviri and slay them, putting an end to the invasion.
In recognition for their deed, the Inner Sea is left to those Dunmer, who had become so familiar with it. (I'd like to say Buoyant Armigers, but the "buoyant" in their names is used in a different sense, and their origin lies elsewhere, though I suppose alternate origin stories aren't necessarily a bad thing). Perhaps dreugh-jiggers, pearl divers and other coastal Dunmer lay claim to descendance from those Dunmer.
Alternatively, the Tribunal only drained the Inner Sea in the first place so that they could flood out invaders later down the line, essentially making the story a very drawn-out [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke]brick joke[/url].
(I'd like to say that the Inner Sea was left as a buffer against Dagoth Ur, but he only wakes up three centuries later. It would serve as a buffer against ash storms, though).
Either way, the Inner Sea was created twice and both accounts are correct.
Kagrenac sinks part of Morrowind under the sea, and the ocean floods in, creating the Inner Sea. After killing the Dwemer and attaining godhood, the Tribunal then suck the water out again. They do not raise the land, though, and it is still below sea level. At either end of the basin there are [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/sites/default/files/mwbks_tslov_spiked_water.jpg]cliffs of water[/url].
Roughly two-and-a-half millennia later, along come the Akiviri invaders. Vivec teaches the people of Morrowind how to breathe underwater, and the Tribunal let the ocean spill into the basin of the Inner Sea once more. Almalexia makes the sky/rocks/everything weep, increasing the flood so that it sweeps over all of Morrowind and, of course, the Akaviri army.
Sotha Sil then does something (punches a hole in the ground?) to make the excess water recede, pulling the Akaviri into the Inner Sea. Some waterbreathing Dunmer who had become accustomed to swimming underwater lie in wait there for the wildly flailing Akaviri and slay them, putting an end to the invasion.
In recognition for their deed, the Inner Sea is left to those Dunmer, who had become so familiar with it. (I'd like to say Buoyant Armigers, but the "buoyant" in their names is used in a different sense, and their origin lies elsewhere, though I suppose alternate origin stories aren't necessarily a bad thing). Perhaps dreugh-jiggers, pearl divers and other coastal Dunmer lay claim to descendance from those Dunmer.
Alternatively, the Tribunal only drained the Inner Sea in the first place so that they could flood out invaders later down the line, essentially making the story a very drawn-out [url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrickJoke]brick joke[/url].
(I'd like to say that the Inner Sea was left as a buffer against Dagoth Ur, but he only wakes up three centuries later. It would serve as a buffer against ash storms, though).
Either way, the Inner Sea was created twice and both accounts are correct.
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Yeti
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The source of the Khajiit slave trade
Recently there has been a good deal of discussion about the Khajiit slave trade and how the Hlaalu are in charge of it. This raises the issue of how Khajiit are brought to Morrowind as slaves to begin with.
The current geo-political state of Tamriel raises questions about how a thriving inter-provincial Khajiit slave trade could exist in the 3rd Era. Unlike with Argonia/Black Marsh, Morrowind does not border Elsweyr, making it unlikely that Dunmer slavers raid the province directly.
Instead, I propose that the Hlaalu work through native criminal organizations in Elsweyr to secure a supply of slaves. Working alongside Dunmer catcatchers, these groups abduct unsuspecting Khajiit from remote villages, taking them to smuggling camps on the coast before sailing them across the Topal Bay, up the Niben River System and then continuing on foot into Morrowind.
During transit, the captive Khajiit are kept drugged and stowed in the bowels of the riverboats so as not to attract the Empire's attention.
Another technique the slavers could use is shanghaiing impoverished Khajiit in port cities like Senchal, seizing drunken or drugged Khajiit from waterfront bars and Skooma dens, and stealing them away through basement tunnel systems to barges waiting down at the docks.
Alternately, the Hlaalu could rely completely on breading Khajiit at home to sustain the slave population.
Recently there has been a good deal of discussion about the Khajiit slave trade and how the Hlaalu are in charge of it. This raises the issue of how Khajiit are brought to Morrowind as slaves to begin with.
The current geo-political state of Tamriel raises questions about how a thriving inter-provincial Khajiit slave trade could exist in the 3rd Era. Unlike with Argonia/Black Marsh, Morrowind does not border Elsweyr, making it unlikely that Dunmer slavers raid the province directly.
Instead, I propose that the Hlaalu work through native criminal organizations in Elsweyr to secure a supply of slaves. Working alongside Dunmer catcatchers, these groups abduct unsuspecting Khajiit from remote villages, taking them to smuggling camps on the coast before sailing them across the Topal Bay, up the Niben River System and then continuing on foot into Morrowind.
During transit, the captive Khajiit are kept drugged and stowed in the bowels of the riverboats so as not to attract the Empire's attention.
Another technique the slavers could use is shanghaiing impoverished Khajiit in port cities like Senchal, seizing drunken or drugged Khajiit from waterfront bars and Skooma dens, and stealing them away through basement tunnel systems to barges waiting down at the docks.
Alternately, the Hlaalu could rely completely on breading Khajiit at home to sustain the slave population.
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I'm not sure whether a significant number of Khajiiti slaves would reach Morrowind like that. Getting past border control would be quite a feat, unless the guards are incredibly corrupt/incompetent, especially at the Velothi Mountain passes.
Of course, Cyrodiilic politics could facilitate matters. Considering how the count of Leyawiin was portrayed in Oblivion, for instance, the idea that he might condone slavers or might even sell Khajiit and Argonians into slavery himself doesn't seem too far-fetched, while Cheydinhal, depending on how firmly House Hlaalu controls it, might also be fairly cooperative.
I would say that the Khajiit being bred in captivity seems like the safest and simplest option, though.
Of course, Cyrodiilic politics could facilitate matters. Considering how the count of Leyawiin was portrayed in Oblivion, for instance, the idea that he might condone slavers or might even sell Khajiit and Argonians into slavery himself doesn't seem too far-fetched, while Cheydinhal, depending on how firmly House Hlaalu controls it, might also be fairly cooperative.
I would say that the Khajiit being bred in captivity seems like the safest and simplest option, though.
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immortal_pigs
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What created the Armun Ashlands
The region was once known as the Valley of Armun. It was a fertile basin surrounded by mountain regions which protected it from the cold winds of the north and the torrental monsoons from the south. When the rise of the Tribunal angered Azura, one of her cruel retaliations was to drive an ash storm from Red Mountain all allong the Western ranges of the Velothi Mountains. Swamps turned to Ash Swamps, the slopes of the Velothis turned pitch black and the storm ended its path in Valley of Armun, where it remains trapped within the walls of the mountain ranges and continues to rage on to this day.
The region was once known as the Valley of Armun. It was a fertile basin surrounded by mountain regions which protected it from the cold winds of the north and the torrental monsoons from the south. When the rise of the Tribunal angered Azura, one of her cruel retaliations was to drive an ash storm from Red Mountain all allong the Western ranges of the Velothi Mountains. Swamps turned to Ash Swamps, the slopes of the Velothis turned pitch black and the storm ended its path in Valley of Armun, where it remains trapped within the walls of the mountain ranges and continues to rage on to this day.
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As a note, I had always assumed that the ash covered most of Morrowind right after the eruption of Red Mountain, (except for pockets shielded from the ash like Roth Roryn), but either got washed away or overgrown in the parts of Morrowind with better drainage. I assumed the Armun Ashlands were just a much larger version of the pocket of ash around Andasreth on Vvardenfell which never went away.
That being said, I'm all for divine intervention. Perhaps this is a case where we could even have a scholarly Imperial explanation and an Ashlander(?) explanation.
That being said, I'm all for divine intervention. Perhaps this is a case where we could even have a scholarly Imperial explanation and an Ashlander(?) explanation.
Turning the chimer's skins dark should be enough divine retribution for that one specific event. Dumping a bunch of ash on the mainland on top of that is overdoing it and detracts from the chimer-dunmer change. That's not to say that the Armun can't have been established through divine intervention, just don't link it to the apotheosis of the Tribunal.
Maybe it's an act of retribution from another Daedra? As far as the Temple narrative is concerned, though, the good Daedra are supposed to acknowledge the Tribunal, while if one of the bad Daedra did it I would think someone would have tried to do something about it by now.
Maybe late in the Temple questline the player will actually pull a semi-divine act and end the ashstorms in the Armun Ashlands, paving the way for future vegetation and habitation? (Which will naturally be reversed when Morrowind gets covered in ash again a few decades later, though it would be funny if the Armun Ashlands actually end up as one of the only pockets of green. Either way, that's outside of the scope of this mod and thread).
Maybe late in the Temple questline the player will actually pull a semi-divine act and end the ashstorms in the Armun Ashlands, paving the way for future vegetation and habitation? (Which will naturally be reversed when Morrowind gets covered in ash again a few decades later, though it would be funny if the Armun Ashlands actually end up as one of the only pockets of green. Either way, that's outside of the scope of this mod and thread).
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immortal_pigs
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It's not a dumping of ash. It's a divine Ash Storm that threatened to rage across all of Morrowind - but thanks to the divine intervention of the Tribunal the storm was contained within the Valley of Armun. To appease the angry Daedroth the Triunes granted her the valley in return for the status of Anticipation (Temple explanation).Why wrote:Turning the chimer's skins dark should be enough divine retribution for that one specific event. Dumping a bunch of ash on the mainland on top of that is overdoing it and detracts from the chimer-dunmer change. That's not to say that the Armun can't have been established through divine intervention, just don't link it to the apotheosis of the Tribunal.
When the Tribunal turned their backs on Azura, a dark cloud descended on the once fertile valley. It rained ash for weeks, the sun was blotted out and the flora died. Twisted roots spewed from the rotting flowers. Ponds turned to murky ash pools (Ashlander explanation).
Gosh this random ashland in the middle of Morrowind really is a nuisance for trade (Imperial explanation).
Also a ravenous Ash Storm converting the green lands to barren ashlands is an allegory to turning the green altmer skins into grey ash skins.
I like the idea that the ash storm is being contained in the valley. I still think that, in the Temple explanation, any link to Azura should be kept quiet.immortal_pigs wrote:It's not a dumping of ash. It's a divine Ash Storm that threatened to rage across all of Morrowind - but thanks to the divine intervention of the Tribunal the storm was contained within the Valley of Armun. To appease the angry Daedroth the Triunes granted her the valley in return for the status of Anticipation (Temple explanation).
Firstly, the Anticipations recognize the Tribunal. They do not need to be appeased, they get along swimmingly. Azura sends the Tribunal a greeting card every Hogithum. She certainly isn't in the habit of cursing Dunmer.
Secondly, even if relations with the Anticipations were strained, I'm not sure whether the Tribunal would "appease" them, at least in the view of the Temple. The Anticipations are either equal or inferior to the Tribunal. They are Anticipations, after all. If Daedra don't recognize the Tribunal, they are Bad Daedra, and it's their loss.
I'd suggest that either one of the Bad Daedra are held responsible, (like Mehrunes Dagon and the Shrine of Maar Gan), or some random, powerful Daedroth did it, likely at the behest of one of the Bad Daedra (similarly to Sheogorath and the rogue moon over Vivec), again according to the Temple narrative.
The changing of an entire race of people from gold-skinned to ash-skinned is a way more significant and interesting event than some freak storm and we do not need to inflate the apotheosis event even further. The status of the Good Daedra as Anticipations is simply a result of the Tribunal replacing them as objects of worship and taking over their roles in Temple faith, not some deal struck over a pocket of ash.
notes on the history of the slave trade
-Hlaalu were the original importers of slaves. These slaves could be of any races, but they were mainly khajiit. They were brought to the border of Morrowind by slavers who are colloquially called "catcatchers." These slavers were mostly Nibenese thug types. They would be kidnapped wherever they were from and then sold into slavery at Shadowgate or Kragenmoor.
-The Dres began importing Argonians en masse during the middle Second Era. This was related to secret dealings with the Hist in which they traded thousands of Argonians for only like a dozen Dunmer. What they don't understand is the Argonians are all secret agents programmed by the Hist to go all Execute Order 66 / Total Recall on the Dres, plus the Hist are using those Dunmer they were given to make Dunmer Replicants.
-The Empire has been hard on the Hlaalu slave trade. Catcatchers became rarer over time as catching slaves has obviously always been illegal kidnapping, but now there is an international policing force that will enforce the law against you in Cyrodiil for crimes committed in Elsweyr. You can't just get away with it at Senchal and then the Duke of Leyawiin will turn the other way. However, during the past decades things have gotten even worse as abolitionist westerners have convinced the Empire to make the inter-province slave trade illegal. It is now illegal for slaves to be sold at the border & the Empire considers the Inner Sea imperial waters, so you cant legally transport slaves across the ocean to Vvardenfell (hence all the slave smugglers). Dres slave trade has not been as badly affected because its largely happening beyond Imperial jurisdiction.
EDIT:
I guess I should also post this here:
A plantation is an enclosed agricultural space which grows crops for sale on the market & export out of the immediate region rather than for local use. The word "enclosed" here is not arbitrary, "enclosure" is the process by which land becomes owned by a single person, family, or company, rather than being communal grazing or farming land for everyone in the area. Understanding enclosure is important because the Hlaalu practice it and the Indoril don't.
In the Morrowind juridicial system, sovereignty over space is the inherited rights of the nobility; this is feudal. The Indoril & Dres practice this system pretty much unadulturated, though they have different kinship practices. An Indoril noble is sovereign over some territory (say, much of the right bank of the Thirr). All who live and farm there owe that noble a tithe for his role as their benevolent ruler and adjudicator and as their interlocutor with the Divine. The peasants farm on open, communal farming and grazing land and then pay a portion of what they make to their lord. The lord does not have "his" farming land, where he oversees production. He has "his" territory, where he is locally sovereign (under the higher sovereignty of the Grand Ascendant and the Tribunal).
Among the Hlaalu, meanwhile, the Hlaalu Council Company has a legal personhood and nobility and has inherited the vast majority of the land in Hlaalu territory through various means. It leases out portions of this land to Hlaalu members which they then cultivate to earn their living. Thus, Hlaalu elite are, in a legal sense, equal to Indoril peasants, but with a different relationship to the land in that they lease a particular parcel rather than using the whole of it as shared commons.
So: Hlaalu, plantations; Indoril, estate manors. Hlaalu small independent farmer; Indoril, communal peasant farms. Hlaalu, sell crops on the market; Indoril, pay tithe to lord. It matters.
-Hlaalu were the original importers of slaves. These slaves could be of any races, but they were mainly khajiit. They were brought to the border of Morrowind by slavers who are colloquially called "catcatchers." These slavers were mostly Nibenese thug types. They would be kidnapped wherever they were from and then sold into slavery at Shadowgate or Kragenmoor.
-The Dres began importing Argonians en masse during the middle Second Era. This was related to secret dealings with the Hist in which they traded thousands of Argonians for only like a dozen Dunmer. What they don't understand is the Argonians are all secret agents programmed by the Hist to go all Execute Order 66 / Total Recall on the Dres, plus the Hist are using those Dunmer they were given to make Dunmer Replicants.
-The Empire has been hard on the Hlaalu slave trade. Catcatchers became rarer over time as catching slaves has obviously always been illegal kidnapping, but now there is an international policing force that will enforce the law against you in Cyrodiil for crimes committed in Elsweyr. You can't just get away with it at Senchal and then the Duke of Leyawiin will turn the other way. However, during the past decades things have gotten even worse as abolitionist westerners have convinced the Empire to make the inter-province slave trade illegal. It is now illegal for slaves to be sold at the border & the Empire considers the Inner Sea imperial waters, so you cant legally transport slaves across the ocean to Vvardenfell (hence all the slave smugglers). Dres slave trade has not been as badly affected because its largely happening beyond Imperial jurisdiction.
EDIT:
I guess I should also post this here:
A plantation is an enclosed agricultural space which grows crops for sale on the market & export out of the immediate region rather than for local use. The word "enclosed" here is not arbitrary, "enclosure" is the process by which land becomes owned by a single person, family, or company, rather than being communal grazing or farming land for everyone in the area. Understanding enclosure is important because the Hlaalu practice it and the Indoril don't.
In the Morrowind juridicial system, sovereignty over space is the inherited rights of the nobility; this is feudal. The Indoril & Dres practice this system pretty much unadulturated, though they have different kinship practices. An Indoril noble is sovereign over some territory (say, much of the right bank of the Thirr). All who live and farm there owe that noble a tithe for his role as their benevolent ruler and adjudicator and as their interlocutor with the Divine. The peasants farm on open, communal farming and grazing land and then pay a portion of what they make to their lord. The lord does not have "his" farming land, where he oversees production. He has "his" territory, where he is locally sovereign (under the higher sovereignty of the Grand Ascendant and the Tribunal).
Among the Hlaalu, meanwhile, the Hlaalu Council Company has a legal personhood and nobility and has inherited the vast majority of the land in Hlaalu territory through various means. It leases out portions of this land to Hlaalu members which they then cultivate to earn their living. Thus, Hlaalu elite are, in a legal sense, equal to Indoril peasants, but with a different relationship to the land in that they lease a particular parcel rather than using the whole of it as shared commons.
So: Hlaalu, plantations; Indoril, estate manors. Hlaalu small independent farmer; Indoril, communal peasant farms. Hlaalu, sell crops on the market; Indoril, pay tithe to lord. It matters.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
Why was it so difficult for the Dres to raid Argonian swamps and bring slaves from there before their agreement with the Hist? I mean, Argonians are mostly tribal savages (unless I'm wrong) and shouldn't be a serious match for the Dunmer slavers.Sload wrote:-The Dres began importing Argonians en masse during the middle Second Era. This was related to secret dealings with the Hist in which they traded thousands of Argonians for only like a dozen Dunmer. What they don't understand is the Argonians are all secret agents programmed by the Hist to go all Execute Order 66 / Total Recall on the Dres, plus the Hist are using those Dunmer they were given to make Dunmer Replicants.
Perhaps the Dres weren't as advanced technologically back then. They didn't have the means, or they hadn't adapted yet to the harsh conditions of the Deshaan Plains, and perhaps that was the reason why every pair of hands was of the utmost significance on the farms. Perhaps they had no idea how to till the salt and exploit the seemingly infertile land. Perhaps that was the very reason why they needed slave labor in the first place, but being weak and outnumbered, they had no chance of raiding the jungle tribes unaided. And that's when the Hist seized their opportunity.
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Wrong. Argonians are not tribal savages and cannot just be picked up by raiders. The Dres do not actually kidnap Argonians & couldn't; the Argonians know the swamp in ways no one else could. The Hists' roots grow deep into the dark.Hells wrote:Why was it so difficult for the Dres to raid Argonian swamps and bring slaves from there before their agreement with the Hist? I mean, Argonians are mostly tribal savages (unless I'm wrong) and shouldn't be a serious match for the Dunmer slavers.Sload wrote:-The Dres began importing Argonians en masse during the middle Second Era. This was related to secret dealings with the Hist in which they traded thousands of Argonians for only like a dozen Dunmer. What they don't understand is the Argonians are all secret agents programmed by the Hist to go all Execute Order 66 / Total Recall on the Dres, plus the Hist are using those Dunmer they were given to make Dunmer Replicants.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
I much prefer the reading that the Dres traded elves with the Hist for the privilege of hunting (a certain amount of) Argonians, rather than just simply exchanging them 1:1000. I agree that Argonians aren't savages and people can't normally just go and kidnap them. The fact that the Dres can and do hunt and kidnap Argonians on a regular basis is what is remarkable.Sload wrote:Wrong. Argonians are not tribal savages and cannot just be picked up by raiders. The Dres do not actually kidnap Argonians & couldn't; the Argonians know the swamp in ways no one else could. The Hists' roots grow deep into the dark.Hells wrote:Why was it so difficult for the Dres to raid Argonian swamps and bring slaves from there before their agreement with the Hist? I mean, Argonians are mostly tribal savages (unless I'm wrong) and shouldn't be a serious match for the Dunmer slavers.Sload wrote:-The Dres began importing Argonians en masse during the middle Second Era. This was related to secret dealings with the Hist in which they traded thousands of Argonians for only like a dozen Dunmer. What they don't understand is the Argonians are all secret agents programmed by the Hist to go all Execute Order 66 / Total Recall on the Dres, plus the Hist are using those Dunmer they were given to make Dunmer Replicants.
I suppose this discussion should happen in the Dres thread rather than here. Hm.
That sounds much better. Don't get me wrong, I see now that Argonians are not just some "tribal savages", but we shouldn't underestimate the Dunmer either.Why wrote:I much prefer the reading that the Dres traded elves with the Hist for the privilege of hunting (a certain amount of) Argonians, rather than just simply exchanging them 1:1000. I agree that Argonians aren't savages and people can't normally just go and kidnap them. The fact that the Dres can and do hunt and kidnap Argonians on a regular basis is what is remarkable.
Maybe the Dres traded with the Hist only once, back in Second Era - some Dunmer for the knowledge of the Argonia swamps and the ability to navigate them like the natives do (maybe their traditional Dres hunter armor could be related to the Hist in some way? Of course it would not be too obvious). It could be seen like a perfect deal at the time, as Dres didn't understand that, for the Hist, it was more than enough. After hundreds of years of experimenting, they were able to produce a perfect Dunmer replicant.
Or, as Why said, they are trading Dunmer to the Hist for the privilege of hunting on their grounds, maybe an annual tribute or something.
I disagree with the notion of what I think appears to be an ash flow north and then south all the way to the Armun Ashlands. I think it's acceptable to just have dark rock in the Velothi Mountains ("The rock is dark along the Velothis because of all the evils the mountain range has absorbed to keep Resdayn safe for the Dunmer" or something), and I thought the Ash Swamp was a different kind of ash (it's wetlands, after all), like a kind of curse from a powerful witch or wizard or Daedric prince (as opposed to the Armun Ashlands which have a Tribunal-related curse).immortal_pigs wrote:http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=21769
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Yeti
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I have a new query to add to the list:
What route did Saint Veloth and his followers take to reach Morrowind?
Did he sail from the Summerset Isles and land on Morrowind's eastern coast (a location near Necrom would make sense), or did they go by land and cross over the Velothi Moutains (hence their name) into Morrowind, basically going the opposite route of the Rouken Dwemer, kind of.
Or is this something we want to leave undefined?
What route did Saint Veloth and his followers take to reach Morrowind?
Did he sail from the Summerset Isles and land on Morrowind's eastern coast (a location near Necrom would make sense), or did they go by land and cross over the Velothi Moutains (hence their name) into Morrowind, basically going the opposite route of the Rouken Dwemer, kind of.
Or is this something we want to leave undefined?
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Swiftoak
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I would leave it open to interpretation, just for coolness sakes. But I do want to incorporate [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_St._James]a "Veloth's Way"[/url] of some sort utilizing the road network across Morrowind. We need to flesh the Temple stuff first. This was sorta the primary idea behind the old Nedothril coast redo. The main road between Almas-Thirr-Oth-Alma should also incorporate this (wayshrines, etc). We can use the pilgrimage route to highlight/contrast the different cultures of Morrowind. (one example would be how the Hlaalu have capitalized off the path on their side of the Thirr, etc, etc.
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I definitely would say they travelled over land:
[img]http://images.uesp.net/thumb/1/1c/Lore-people-Veloth.jpg/180px-Lore-people-Veloth.jpg[/img]
The reasons are largely symbolic. To name a few:
-there are a lot of parallels between Veloth's exodus and Moses', which I do not consider a bad thing.
-part of Veloth's symbolism is of a pilgrim travelling ever eastward. To travel to Morrowind by sea, the Velothi would either have to go northwards for the last third of their voyage or for the first third of their voyage, which would somewhat undermine that symbolism.
-the Dunmer are not a seafaring people. Had the Chimer reached Morrowind by water, I'd expect at least the Ashlanders to maintain a seagoing lifestyle, and for ships to play a larger role in Dunmer symbolism. (To my knowledge ships currently play no role in Dunmer symbolism).
-the symbolism of an exodus over water and an exodus over land is very different. For example in the former, the ships carry the exiles to their destination, the exiles guiding the ships. In the latter, the exiles have to personally tread every step of the journey. The latter seems more in-line with Dunmer philosophy and religion. (The pilgrimages, the 'walking ways', etc.)
-while naval voyages can certainly be very eventful and perilous, the time taken to cross a certain distance is simply much shorter than with a land-based exodus. In the case of crossing Tamriel, the difference would probably be between a voyage of several months and a voyage of several years.
[img]http://images.uesp.net/thumb/1/1c/Lore-people-Veloth.jpg/180px-Lore-people-Veloth.jpg[/img]
The reasons are largely symbolic. To name a few:
-there are a lot of parallels between Veloth's exodus and Moses', which I do not consider a bad thing.
-part of Veloth's symbolism is of a pilgrim travelling ever eastward. To travel to Morrowind by sea, the Velothi would either have to go northwards for the last third of their voyage or for the first third of their voyage, which would somewhat undermine that symbolism.
-the Dunmer are not a seafaring people. Had the Chimer reached Morrowind by water, I'd expect at least the Ashlanders to maintain a seagoing lifestyle, and for ships to play a larger role in Dunmer symbolism. (To my knowledge ships currently play no role in Dunmer symbolism).
-the symbolism of an exodus over water and an exodus over land is very different. For example in the former, the ships carry the exiles to their destination, the exiles guiding the ships. In the latter, the exiles have to personally tread every step of the journey. The latter seems more in-line with Dunmer philosophy and religion. (The pilgrimages, the 'walking ways', etc.)
-while naval voyages can certainly be very eventful and perilous, the time taken to cross a certain distance is simply much shorter than with a land-based exodus. In the case of crossing Tamriel, the difference would probably be between a voyage of several months and a voyage of several years.
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Yeti
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All the [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lives_of_the_Saints]sources[/url] I've read say he came from the Summerset Isles, but I suppose changing this to Aldmeris would make his exodus more immersive. I suppose this is where the rule of coolness kicks in.
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When it comes to early elven (and for that matter 'mannish') migrations, I'd think that having both traditions would generally work. Over such a long period of time inconsistencies would have worked themselves into the retelling of events, and perhaps more to the point the exodus of Veloth lies so far back that time probably hadn't fully stabilized on Tamriel when the events happened. ([url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/true-nature-orcs]The True Nature of Orcs[/url] puts the exodus in the Dawn Era).
Edit: which just gave me the image of three or four Veloths appearing in various places in and beyond Tamriel, all heading east.
Edit: which just gave me the image of three or four Veloths appearing in various places in and beyond Tamriel, all heading east.
Sorry, that wasn't very clear, and also a multifaceted question;
Side consideration for later: no "book" in Morrowind/TR is a book - they're a couple pages long at most, duh. This more or less implies that what we generally have is a symbolical representation of a book.
Now, the 36Lessons aren't exactly a regular book, for a number of reasons - some parts are forbidden, there's one that's an obvious numeral cypher, and I imagine your average guar herders aren't supposed to concern themselves with the more obscure (ie most) parts of that theology. The lessons even directly address the player and subtly melt the 4th wall every now and then. All this can heavily induce one to think the version we know isn't necessarily the version NPCs would read - which would fit with the above consideration re:books generally not being books.
Still, it's a text from Vivec that exists in the world in some way, so it's got to be pretty significant. Leads to my questions - in which form do the Lessons exist, to begin with, in the *world* (not the representation of the world that is the game)? - in which form is it 'used' by the Temple? - are straight actual quotations from any part of it acceptable in character dialogue? (attack on the 4th wall is especially relevant here) which characters, to what extent? - what knowledge of it do mystically aware characters have that regular priests don't? how about dissident priests? no they don't spring from the coded message in there, that'd be ridiculous - what does your average dark elf Temple-goer in Morrowind know of it? - it's a sacred text yet obviously not a 'bible', but is it treated like, say, a book of hours in latin that regular folks wouldn'/couldn't read, but that priests would preach from? - the events mentioned in it are probably only a small representation of everything the Tribunal did as god-heroes, which of those events are predominant in the mythology-folklore, which are ignored?
Side consideration for later: no "book" in Morrowind/TR is a book - they're a couple pages long at most, duh. This more or less implies that what we generally have is a symbolical representation of a book.
Now, the 36Lessons aren't exactly a regular book, for a number of reasons - some parts are forbidden, there's one that's an obvious numeral cypher, and I imagine your average guar herders aren't supposed to concern themselves with the more obscure (ie most) parts of that theology. The lessons even directly address the player and subtly melt the 4th wall every now and then. All this can heavily induce one to think the version we know isn't necessarily the version NPCs would read - which would fit with the above consideration re:books generally not being books.
Still, it's a text from Vivec that exists in the world in some way, so it's got to be pretty significant. Leads to my questions - in which form do the Lessons exist, to begin with, in the *world* (not the representation of the world that is the game)? - in which form is it 'used' by the Temple? - are straight actual quotations from any part of it acceptable in character dialogue? (attack on the 4th wall is especially relevant here) which characters, to what extent? - what knowledge of it do mystically aware characters have that regular priests don't? how about dissident priests? no they don't spring from the coded message in there, that'd be ridiculous - what does your average dark elf Temple-goer in Morrowind know of it? - it's a sacred text yet obviously not a 'bible', but is it treated like, say, a book of hours in latin that regular folks wouldn'/couldn't read, but that priests would preach from? - the events mentioned in it are probably only a small representation of everything the Tribunal did as god-heroes, which of those events are predominant in the mythology-folklore, which are ignored?
It's high church mysticism. The Sermons are available in more or less the form we see. They're not hugely widespread because they're too cryptic for the majority of readers. Nobody understands them in their entirely except for Vivec himself, but Temple faithful can use it as a source of history and quotations, subject to interpretation. The Dunmer faithful probably believe in the literal truth of much or all of the Sermons, whereas others will view it as allegory.rot wrote:Still, it's a text from Vivec that exists in the world in some way, so it's got to be pretty significant. Leads to my questions - in which form do the Lessons exist, to begin with, in the *world* (not the representation of the world that is the game)? - in which form is it 'used' by the Temple? - are straight actual quotations from any part of it acceptable in character dialogue? (attack on the 4th wall is especially relevant here) which characters, to what extent? - what knowledge of it do mystically aware characters have that regular priests don't? how about dissident priests? no they don't spring from the coded message in there, that'd be ridiculous - what does your average dark elf Temple-goer in Morrowind know of it? - it's a sacred text yet obviously not a 'bible', but is it treated like, say, a book of hours in latin that regular folks wouldn'/couldn't read, but that priests would preach from? - the events mentioned in it are probably only a small representation of everything the Tribunal did as god-heroes, which of those events are predominant in the mythology-folklore, which are ignored?
It's not the core text of the religion- it's too enigmatic for that. The Tribunal don't really need a central holy book when they have the gods themselves on hand.
Test
Who were the Chimer? What was their society like? I'm not confident in this kind of lore but here's an attempt.
Veloth was the prophet of Boethiah. Boethiah, along with Mephala and Azura, are subversive, intellectual daedric princes who espouse deep planning, conspiracy and secrecy. Veloth led the exodus in order that the Chimer could worship their ancestors under the patronage of the Anticipations.
The Chimer also pursued the Endeavour, which may be the same as he Psijic Endeavour. The Psijics believed in ancestor worship, like the Chimer, and were another group of exiles from Summerset. They have a history of passively advising various governments and steering Tamrielic ideas and policy. Sotha Sil is said to have been a member of this order.
Although no explicit connection has been made between the Psijics and CHIM, the connection has been made with Veloth's Endeavour. CHIM, in short, is a state of enlightenment that surpasses that of the Aedra and Daedra.
My speculation is this: Veloth founded Chimer society in order to pursue CHIM. He was guided in this by the Anticipations, and perhaps even by the House of Troubles (who gave instruction to the Chimer by opposing them). Veloth may have been a Psijic himself, or he may have founded an offshoot sect that was more proactive and less passive. Either way, he structured the Chimer culture, religion and philosophy in order to maximise the chances of producing at least one person capable of CHIM. The nation of Resdayn was a grand social experiment. Ultimately it was successful, as Vivec achieved CHIM, albeit under circumstances Veloth could not have predicted.
How (indeed whether) this all changed when the Tribunal arrived on the scene is something I haven't figured out.
Veloth was the prophet of Boethiah. Boethiah, along with Mephala and Azura, are subversive, intellectual daedric princes who espouse deep planning, conspiracy and secrecy. Veloth led the exodus in order that the Chimer could worship their ancestors under the patronage of the Anticipations.
The Chimer also pursued the Endeavour, which may be the same as he Psijic Endeavour. The Psijics believed in ancestor worship, like the Chimer, and were another group of exiles from Summerset. They have a history of passively advising various governments and steering Tamrielic ideas and policy. Sotha Sil is said to have been a member of this order.
Although no explicit connection has been made between the Psijics and CHIM, the connection has been made with Veloth's Endeavour. CHIM, in short, is a state of enlightenment that surpasses that of the Aedra and Daedra.
My speculation is this: Veloth founded Chimer society in order to pursue CHIM. He was guided in this by the Anticipations, and perhaps even by the House of Troubles (who gave instruction to the Chimer by opposing them). Veloth may have been a Psijic himself, or he may have founded an offshoot sect that was more proactive and less passive. Either way, he structured the Chimer culture, religion and philosophy in order to maximise the chances of producing at least one person capable of CHIM. The nation of Resdayn was a grand social experiment. Ultimately it was successful, as Vivec achieved CHIM, albeit under circumstances Veloth could not have predicted.
How (indeed whether) this all changed when the Tribunal arrived on the scene is something I haven't figured out.
Test
Veloth came from the west and went east by land. I think there is ample evidence and narrative causality for that.
The way I see it, the various philosophical perspectives on the creation of a mortal world were made manifest by dawn magic as the factions and peoples of the Aldmer.
The Altmer and related tribes such as the Ayleids mourn the departure of divinity from the mortal world and feverishly try to preserve it wherever possible.
The Bosmer were perhaps part of the Altmer tribe for some time, but eventually became infatuated with all the new, lesser creatia that had been created along with the mortal world and merged with various, less animate spirits.
The Orcs embraced their transient, material forms, as longs as they could be the biggest and strongest of them.
One heterodox group contains a whole range of philosophies, all of which are united by the notion that a separation from the divine opens up the possibility for mortals to aspire to something far greater. This idea apparently isolated them philosophically and physically from the traditional elves. The name of Sithis, PSJJJ, or various permutations of it, are in some way or another connected to each of them, so it stands to reason that that force plays a part in all of their teachings. (Which makes sense in opposition to the firmly Anuic leanings of the traditional Elves.)
This group includes the Chimer, whose beliefs were established as Veloth's 'Endeavor' and the Psijic Order, whose beliefs are virtually unknown. Obviously, their ideas also permeated later and sometimes mannish cultures and figures, such as Alessia, Marukh, Mankar Camoran and Vivec. Just looking at that list, I think it is plain to see that the focus of the series, at least for those writers who have a conscious agenda, is with this group.
Obviously, the Daedra would take an interest in these groups, because they are the only mortals who see somewhat eye to eye with them. The patronage of the Chimeri Exodus by the Three Good Daedra could probably be explored some more though.
To return to Gro-Dhal's post, the idea of the Exodus as a search for a place where the Endeavor could eventually be made to succeed is pretty much exactly how I see it too.
PS: I am not sure how the Dwemer fit into the categorization above. (Of course, they are basically unknowable. Note how they're the only ones without an origin story of how they left Aldmeris.) It would seem that rather than choosing sides, they only cared about undoing (their own) creation completely. This would explain why they eventually came into conflict with the Chimer for using the Heart of Lorkhan, the strongest patron spirit of the Endeavor, for their own purposes.
The way I see it, the various philosophical perspectives on the creation of a mortal world were made manifest by dawn magic as the factions and peoples of the Aldmer.
The Altmer and related tribes such as the Ayleids mourn the departure of divinity from the mortal world and feverishly try to preserve it wherever possible.
The Bosmer were perhaps part of the Altmer tribe for some time, but eventually became infatuated with all the new, lesser creatia that had been created along with the mortal world and merged with various, less animate spirits.
The Orcs embraced their transient, material forms, as longs as they could be the biggest and strongest of them.
One heterodox group contains a whole range of philosophies, all of which are united by the notion that a separation from the divine opens up the possibility for mortals to aspire to something far greater. This idea apparently isolated them philosophically and physically from the traditional elves. The name of Sithis, PSJJJ, or various permutations of it, are in some way or another connected to each of them, so it stands to reason that that force plays a part in all of their teachings. (Which makes sense in opposition to the firmly Anuic leanings of the traditional Elves.)
This group includes the Chimer, whose beliefs were established as Veloth's 'Endeavor' and the Psijic Order, whose beliefs are virtually unknown. Obviously, their ideas also permeated later and sometimes mannish cultures and figures, such as Alessia, Marukh, Mankar Camoran and Vivec. Just looking at that list, I think it is plain to see that the focus of the series, at least for those writers who have a conscious agenda, is with this group.
Obviously, the Daedra would take an interest in these groups, because they are the only mortals who see somewhat eye to eye with them. The patronage of the Chimeri Exodus by the Three Good Daedra could probably be explored some more though.
To return to Gro-Dhal's post, the idea of the Exodus as a search for a place where the Endeavor could eventually be made to succeed is pretty much exactly how I see it too.
PS: I am not sure how the Dwemer fit into the categorization above. (Of course, they are basically unknowable. Note how they're the only ones without an origin story of how they left Aldmeris.) It would seem that rather than choosing sides, they only cared about undoing (their own) creation completely. This would explain why they eventually came into conflict with the Chimer for using the Heart of Lorkhan, the strongest patron spirit of the Endeavor, for their own purposes.
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Yeti
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Non-Beast Race Slaves
Where do human and elvish slaves come from? Are they the result of "human/mer trafficking" from other provinces? Do they become slaves because they are heavily in debt to a Dunmer, so much so that they become their personal property as a form of collateral payment?
Secondary question: should they be limited to certain areas? I always sort of assumed they were mainly a Telvanni thing, or at least should only appear in considerable numbers in isolated areas free of outlander influence.
Tertiary question: Under what circumstances do the Dunmer enslave other Dunmer? Is it from capturing members of opposing Houses during a House War, or from warring with Ashlander tribes? Do they get into debt and lose their freedom as a means to pay it off?
Where do human and elvish slaves come from? Are they the result of "human/mer trafficking" from other provinces? Do they become slaves because they are heavily in debt to a Dunmer, so much so that they become their personal property as a form of collateral payment?
Secondary question: should they be limited to certain areas? I always sort of assumed they were mainly a Telvanni thing, or at least should only appear in considerable numbers in isolated areas free of outlander influence.
Tertiary question: Under what circumstances do the Dunmer enslave other Dunmer? Is it from capturing members of opposing Houses during a House War, or from warring with Ashlander tribes? Do they get into debt and lose their freedom as a means to pay it off?
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Chimer History
To establish Chimer history, we actually need to establish several things: a} what was the history which made necessary the Red Moment (several histories led to it after the fact; but there was one that originated it) b} how are the major other histories (esp. the Temple history) different from that original history? c} to what extent are each history now remembered?
I will refer to the history that TESIII portrays as the "secret real history," the one 'from which' the Red Moment happened, the one in which Vivec murders Nerevar and so on, as the Chimer Ur-History for the rest of this post. This history is largely my invention and subject to change if it is necessary.
Chimer Ur-History I: Veloth
In "Aldmeris," which is geographically ambiguous, Boethiah swallows Trinimac and gives the lessons which Veloth accepts before shitting Trinimac out as Malacath. Veloth and his followers begin their exodus and become known as the "Chimer," or "Changed Folk," as well as the "Vel" ("Chimer" is more formal and, by the time of the game, much much much more common). There are some important theological notes here: Trinimac is the first lieutenant to Auriel/Akatosh, the elves' preferred god. Trinimac is the theo-historical progenitor of the elves, with each following the interpretation of his teachings through someone who witnessed him. Bosmer: Y'ffre; Altmer: Phynaster; in an inversion, Chimer: Veloth. I think its also worth noting that Trinimac is identified sometimes with Tsun/Zenithar but I forget the details of that.
So once we leave the theological time and enter history, Veloth is travelling east over the mountains to the valley of ashes that he gives his name to for some time. He ends his journey at what is now the city of Necrom, where he dies, and where now most Dunmer have their funeral rites before being shipped off to the tombs or the Ghostfence or what-have-you. Apocryphally, Veloth didn't die and actually kept going (maybe is still going); there are Chimer in Akavir who say that they kept following Veloth to the other continent.
Most Chimer settle in what is now Morrowind, where the Dwemer already inhabit. There are frequent clashes between the two people. The Chimer worship seven of the Daedra, three as the Good Daedra (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala) and four as the Bad Daedra (Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, and Sheogorath). They have a primitive semi-nomadic culture but they begin to build their first cities and strongholds. Their material culture is much less advanced than in modern times. The first houses emerge during this time. They were much more like the ashlanders than most modern Dunmer, but the ashlanders may represent a particularly low-technology society because that is what's best fit for the ashland environment.
Chimer Ur-History II: Dwemereth
During the beginning of the First Era, the host of Ysgramor (who is a mythic figure and not necessarily a literal legendary king) arrived in Tamriel from Atmora. They were giants. King Harald is the first to organize the host of Ysgramor into a kingdom in part of what is now Skyrim, and his grandson, Vrage, expands his empire significantly, conquering from as far as Direnni in the west to Veloth in the east. Around 1E 250, the Chimer and Dwemer are made subject to these 'proto-Nords' (Sky Beards, Northern Men, Bear Folk, Giants), as the Kingdom of Dwemereth. Vrage also supports the Alessian Rebellion in Cyrodiil; this period is the beginning of the reign of men in Tamriel. The proto-Nords rather rapidly decline in size after arriving in Tamriel, and become like the Nords of today by the end of their reign over Dwemereth (this is another theological event; people grow shorter as they grow further from their divine origins).
Now, a narrative sketch of how Nerevar becomes hortator and liberates Resdayn:
Nerevar is born in the mid-to-late 1E 300s. He is a low-born Chimer, with no name, who becomes a mercenary and is very good at it. While he is serving as a spear-rider for a caravan led by a minor House Chimer and heading toward Mournhold, the capital, his caravan discovers one of the first Dwemer war centurions, which bears the mark of the Nordic kings. The caravan is divided between two sides: one wants to bring it to Mournhold to show the council of House Fathers there what new weapons the Nords have, while another wants to bring it to nearby wizards (proto-Telvanni) who will pay well for dwemercraft. Nerevar cannot have a detour off their course for whatever personal reason - he is escaping debts, he has plans in Mournhold that will make him a lot of money, whatever. So when the caravaner decides to go sell the dwemercraft, he ends up killing the caravaner, stealing the dwemercraft, and riding off with the caravaner's banners.
In Mournhold, he presents himself as a Chimer of the house on his banners. He meets Vivec in the street (this is when [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/what-my-beloved-taught-me]What My Beloved Taught Me[/url] occurs). Vivec is not named Vivec then, but he erased his first name from memory in the Red Moment so we don't know what he was called. At the court of the House Fathers, Nerevar meets the others who will be his cohort: Sotha Sil, Dagoth Voryn, and Indoril Laesa. All four are younger and less experienced than Nerevar. He is sworn to House Dagoth as a master-at-arms to train Dagoth Voryn, their heir, and he will eventually marry Indoril Laesa. At some point, members of the house he has been claiming to be arrive in Mournhold, reveal his lie, and demand he pay for his crime. But now he is an Indoril by marriage, and they protect him; Nerevar cannot be judged and made to pay like a lowborn, so if they want his blood they will have to declare a house war. The other people back down or the Indoril win the war or whatever.
The Chimer and Dwemer unite in 4E 416 to liberate Dwemereth from the Nords. Nerevar becomes a general in the war and ultimately is declared Hortator of the Chimer. After the war, he and Dumac form a fragile peace and create the kingdom of Resdayn.
Chimer Ur-History III: Resdayn
The kingdom of Resdayn has peace for more than 200 years. There is significant technological advancement and everything is flourishing and great; this is the golden age of the Chimer.
Dagoth Voryn ruins it by discovering the earthbone research of Kagrenac and the Tonal Architects. They are messing with the fundamental laws of the universe and behaving like gods and the Chimer think that is very profane and wrong. Ultimately, the Chimer declare war and it leads up to the Battle of Red Mountain. As they are being defeated on the battle, Kagrenac completes his experiment and the Dwemer disappear to become the golden skin of the Anumidium. Only one Dwemer remains, Yagrum Bagarn, who has sacrificed his salvation so that he can hook the Anumidium up to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dwemer can transcend reality or whatever.
Unfortunately for the Dwemer, Nerevar and Voryn discover the profane tools. Nerevar has Voryn guard them while he seeks council from his other advices, 'Vivec,' Sil, and Laesa. He returns to Red Mountain with them to discover that Voryn won't give up the tools, yada yada. There's a fight, Voryn escapes to eventually become Dagoth Ur the Sharmat, but now they have the tools. Nerevar is like going to destroy them or something, when the Tribunal kill him. Nerevar's shield-bearer (aka squire), Sul Alandro, witnesses this. Sil does the magic and the Red Moment happens, or maybe there's a time gap? In any event, around then, they become gods, Vivec takes his new name, Laesa takes the title Alma Laesa, which has been imperialized to Almalexia, and the reign of the Tribunal begins.
Alterhistories
This obviously isn't the Temple's account of what happened, but the exact details of the official Temple account are a lot less clear than the details of the version the Temple has suppressed. The Temple holds that Dagoth Ur killed Nerevar, of course. But how do they claim the Tribunal came to be? That's a part of it that I think is super unclear and it has a huge impact on any other differences.
If they claim the Tribunal were just born gods, and that these gods were prophesied by Veloth and anticipated by the Good Daedra, then perhaps they hold that they were the spiritual leaders of Resdayn from before its liberation from the Nords, and that they advised Nerevar that whole time. Certainly that's consistent with the Sermons.
To establish Chimer history, we actually need to establish several things: a} what was the history which made necessary the Red Moment (several histories led to it after the fact; but there was one that originated it) b} how are the major other histories (esp. the Temple history) different from that original history? c} to what extent are each history now remembered?
I will refer to the history that TESIII portrays as the "secret real history," the one 'from which' the Red Moment happened, the one in which Vivec murders Nerevar and so on, as the Chimer Ur-History for the rest of this post. This history is largely my invention and subject to change if it is necessary.
Chimer Ur-History I: Veloth
In "Aldmeris," which is geographically ambiguous, Boethiah swallows Trinimac and gives the lessons which Veloth accepts before shitting Trinimac out as Malacath. Veloth and his followers begin their exodus and become known as the "Chimer," or "Changed Folk," as well as the "Vel" ("Chimer" is more formal and, by the time of the game, much much much more common). There are some important theological notes here: Trinimac is the first lieutenant to Auriel/Akatosh, the elves' preferred god. Trinimac is the theo-historical progenitor of the elves, with each following the interpretation of his teachings through someone who witnessed him. Bosmer: Y'ffre; Altmer: Phynaster; in an inversion, Chimer: Veloth. I think its also worth noting that Trinimac is identified sometimes with Tsun/Zenithar but I forget the details of that.
So once we leave the theological time and enter history, Veloth is travelling east over the mountains to the valley of ashes that he gives his name to for some time. He ends his journey at what is now the city of Necrom, where he dies, and where now most Dunmer have their funeral rites before being shipped off to the tombs or the Ghostfence or what-have-you. Apocryphally, Veloth didn't die and actually kept going (maybe is still going); there are Chimer in Akavir who say that they kept following Veloth to the other continent.
Most Chimer settle in what is now Morrowind, where the Dwemer already inhabit. There are frequent clashes between the two people. The Chimer worship seven of the Daedra, three as the Good Daedra (Azura, Boethiah, Mephala) and four as the Bad Daedra (Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Molag Bal, and Sheogorath). They have a primitive semi-nomadic culture but they begin to build their first cities and strongholds. Their material culture is much less advanced than in modern times. The first houses emerge during this time. They were much more like the ashlanders than most modern Dunmer, but the ashlanders may represent a particularly low-technology society because that is what's best fit for the ashland environment.
Chimer Ur-History II: Dwemereth
During the beginning of the First Era, the host of Ysgramor (who is a mythic figure and not necessarily a literal legendary king) arrived in Tamriel from Atmora. They were giants. King Harald is the first to organize the host of Ysgramor into a kingdom in part of what is now Skyrim, and his grandson, Vrage, expands his empire significantly, conquering from as far as Direnni in the west to Veloth in the east. Around 1E 250, the Chimer and Dwemer are made subject to these 'proto-Nords' (Sky Beards, Northern Men, Bear Folk, Giants), as the Kingdom of Dwemereth. Vrage also supports the Alessian Rebellion in Cyrodiil; this period is the beginning of the reign of men in Tamriel. The proto-Nords rather rapidly decline in size after arriving in Tamriel, and become like the Nords of today by the end of their reign over Dwemereth (this is another theological event; people grow shorter as they grow further from their divine origins).
Now, a narrative sketch of how Nerevar becomes hortator and liberates Resdayn:
Nerevar is born in the mid-to-late 1E 300s. He is a low-born Chimer, with no name, who becomes a mercenary and is very good at it. While he is serving as a spear-rider for a caravan led by a minor House Chimer and heading toward Mournhold, the capital, his caravan discovers one of the first Dwemer war centurions, which bears the mark of the Nordic kings. The caravan is divided between two sides: one wants to bring it to Mournhold to show the council of House Fathers there what new weapons the Nords have, while another wants to bring it to nearby wizards (proto-Telvanni) who will pay well for dwemercraft. Nerevar cannot have a detour off their course for whatever personal reason - he is escaping debts, he has plans in Mournhold that will make him a lot of money, whatever. So when the caravaner decides to go sell the dwemercraft, he ends up killing the caravaner, stealing the dwemercraft, and riding off with the caravaner's banners.
In Mournhold, he presents himself as a Chimer of the house on his banners. He meets Vivec in the street (this is when [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/what-my-beloved-taught-me]What My Beloved Taught Me[/url] occurs). Vivec is not named Vivec then, but he erased his first name from memory in the Red Moment so we don't know what he was called. At the court of the House Fathers, Nerevar meets the others who will be his cohort: Sotha Sil, Dagoth Voryn, and Indoril Laesa. All four are younger and less experienced than Nerevar. He is sworn to House Dagoth as a master-at-arms to train Dagoth Voryn, their heir, and he will eventually marry Indoril Laesa. At some point, members of the house he has been claiming to be arrive in Mournhold, reveal his lie, and demand he pay for his crime. But now he is an Indoril by marriage, and they protect him; Nerevar cannot be judged and made to pay like a lowborn, so if they want his blood they will have to declare a house war. The other people back down or the Indoril win the war or whatever.
The Chimer and Dwemer unite in 4E 416 to liberate Dwemereth from the Nords. Nerevar becomes a general in the war and ultimately is declared Hortator of the Chimer. After the war, he and Dumac form a fragile peace and create the kingdom of Resdayn.
Chimer Ur-History III: Resdayn
The kingdom of Resdayn has peace for more than 200 years. There is significant technological advancement and everything is flourishing and great; this is the golden age of the Chimer.
Dagoth Voryn ruins it by discovering the earthbone research of Kagrenac and the Tonal Architects. They are messing with the fundamental laws of the universe and behaving like gods and the Chimer think that is very profane and wrong. Ultimately, the Chimer declare war and it leads up to the Battle of Red Mountain. As they are being defeated on the battle, Kagrenac completes his experiment and the Dwemer disappear to become the golden skin of the Anumidium. Only one Dwemer remains, Yagrum Bagarn, who has sacrificed his salvation so that he can hook the Anumidium up to the Heart of Lorkhan and the Dwemer can transcend reality or whatever.
Unfortunately for the Dwemer, Nerevar and Voryn discover the profane tools. Nerevar has Voryn guard them while he seeks council from his other advices, 'Vivec,' Sil, and Laesa. He returns to Red Mountain with them to discover that Voryn won't give up the tools, yada yada. There's a fight, Voryn escapes to eventually become Dagoth Ur the Sharmat, but now they have the tools. Nerevar is like going to destroy them or something, when the Tribunal kill him. Nerevar's shield-bearer (aka squire), Sul Alandro, witnesses this. Sil does the magic and the Red Moment happens, or maybe there's a time gap? In any event, around then, they become gods, Vivec takes his new name, Laesa takes the title Alma Laesa, which has been imperialized to Almalexia, and the reign of the Tribunal begins.
Alterhistories
This obviously isn't the Temple's account of what happened, but the exact details of the official Temple account are a lot less clear than the details of the version the Temple has suppressed. The Temple holds that Dagoth Ur killed Nerevar, of course. But how do they claim the Tribunal came to be? That's a part of it that I think is super unclear and it has a huge impact on any other differences.
If they claim the Tribunal were just born gods, and that these gods were prophesied by Veloth and anticipated by the Good Daedra, then perhaps they hold that they were the spiritual leaders of Resdayn from before its liberation from the Nords, and that they advised Nerevar that whole time. Certainly that's consistent with the Sermons.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
READ THIS ABOUT NAMES
"Almalaesa" should be used if you are writing text in untranslated Dunmer gibberish that the player is not intended to understand. Only 100% untranslated gibberish.
IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE OTHER INSTANCE - no matter how conservative or traditional or old the author or speaker is - the name for the goddess is Almalexia.
This should also go without saying, but in LITERALLY SINGLE EVERY INSTANCE that isnt "the 36 lessons of Vivec," including other religious texts, the Tribunal should be referred by their names and not Ayem, Seht, and Vehk. Ayem, Seht, and Vehk are not used outside of the 36 Lessons under any circumstances whatsoever.
"Almalaesa" should be used if you are writing text in untranslated Dunmer gibberish that the player is not intended to understand. Only 100% untranslated gibberish.
IN LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE OTHER INSTANCE - no matter how conservative or traditional or old the author or speaker is - the name for the goddess is Almalexia.
This should also go without saying, but in LITERALLY SINGLE EVERY INSTANCE that isnt "the 36 lessons of Vivec," including other religious texts, the Tribunal should be referred by their names and not Ayem, Seht, and Vehk. Ayem, Seht, and Vehk are not used outside of the 36 Lessons under any circumstances whatsoever.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
Something that was shortly discussed on IRC: the Nords were in Morrowind for [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/first-era]at least 273 years[/url], having apparently conquered [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-skyrim]the whole of Morrowind[/url]* by the year 143. Most of their presence would have been concentrated near the Skyrim border, where they could best defend and supply their holdings. [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/songs-return-volume-56-final-tale-chrion]Here[/url]'s another text for flavour.
It is quite possible that they did build fortifications elsewhere to monitor the Chimer and maybe Dwemer, much like the legion forts. Like the legion forts, though, those fortifications would have been highly visible, and the Chimer would have thoroughly demolished them.
Nord dead in the far reaches of Morrowind would either have been sent to Uld Vraech or Skyrim to be interred, or ship burials were employed, or the dead were simply buried, perhaps with markers which the Chimer would have gotten rid of, or perhaps the fortifications contained barrows, which would have been demolished along with the rest of the structure. The point being that you wouldn't see barrows outside of northwesternmost Morrowind.
The stone blocks of any Nordic structures outside of Uld Vraech may have been used in the construction of Indoril buildings, which have a similar hue. I'm not suggesting that anything close to a majority of Indoril stone is Nordic in origin, though. The Dwemer may have also recycled some of the Nordic blocks. But I don't see that sort of thing coming up in-game even if it were the case.
Does that sound good so far?
More simply, Nords aren't the focus of the mod and there would be no real purpose in giving them representation all across Morrowind. Nords will be somewhat of a focus in northwesternmost Morrowind, and as such they are rather well represented there.
*fourth paragraph.
It is quite possible that they did build fortifications elsewhere to monitor the Chimer and maybe Dwemer, much like the legion forts. Like the legion forts, though, those fortifications would have been highly visible, and the Chimer would have thoroughly demolished them.
Nord dead in the far reaches of Morrowind would either have been sent to Uld Vraech or Skyrim to be interred, or ship burials were employed, or the dead were simply buried, perhaps with markers which the Chimer would have gotten rid of, or perhaps the fortifications contained barrows, which would have been demolished along with the rest of the structure. The point being that you wouldn't see barrows outside of northwesternmost Morrowind.
The stone blocks of any Nordic structures outside of Uld Vraech may have been used in the construction of Indoril buildings, which have a similar hue. I'm not suggesting that anything close to a majority of Indoril stone is Nordic in origin, though. The Dwemer may have also recycled some of the Nordic blocks. But I don't see that sort of thing coming up in-game even if it were the case.
Does that sound good so far?
More simply, Nords aren't the focus of the mod and there would be no real purpose in giving them representation all across Morrowind. Nords will be somewhat of a focus in northwesternmost Morrowind, and as such they are rather well represented there.
*fourth paragraph.
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Yeti
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Great stuff Sload. I'll try to come up with something more concrete to say about it as soon as I don't have two final semester papers to finish.
@Gnomey: I wrote this as a potential in-game text a little over a year ago. It's still largely a rough draft, but some of it might be useful for discussing Morrowind under Nord rule.
@Gnomey: I wrote this as a potential in-game text a little over a year ago. It's still largely a rough draft, but some of it might be useful for discussing Morrowind under Nord rule.
Yeti wrote:A History of The First Empire in Morrowind
When the Atmoran Warlord Ysgramor and his Five Hundred Companions swept across the cold wastes of Skyrim, it became but the first of his dynasty’s celebrated conquests. His descendant, King Vrage the Gifted, would go on to expand the kingdom he founded across northern Tamriel. Historians now call this early crowning achievement by man ‘The First Empire.’
Vrage, yearning for further victories, led a host of men through the twisting passes of the Velothi Mountains, into a land known today as Morrowind. There he found the ancestors of the Dunmer living in primitive tribal bands alongside the enigmatic Dwemer. The well organized invaders took advantage of the historic feud between the two peoples and forcibly annexed Morrowind as a province of The First Empire.
The historian’s principle obstacle in understanding this period in Morrowind’s history is the deficiency in the archaeological record. Few ruins dating back to the First Empire remain extant in the east. Those that have survived the will of Akatosh are insignificant compared to First Empire ruins found in the west. The best preserved of these, of course, and certainly the most magnificent, is the Palace of the Kings, Ysgramor's lofty keep, standing to this day in ancient Windhelm.
The study of Nord ruins has long been neglected in Morrowind. Compared to the lasting architectural testament of Dwemer civilization, it becomes apparent why most scholars would have little interest in what amounts to a scattering of barrows dotting the Velothi Mountains. Remains of actual First Empire settlements are usually deteriorated to the point of being undetectable. Either Morrowind’s Nord population did not build their settlements from durable material, or, as I have hypothesized, their settlements in the east were never extensive to begin with.
What archaeological evidence that exists shows a clear pattern of Nord activity clustered in western Morrowind. The Nords, faced with a hostile and alien land, likely never made significant inroads into its interior. After all, it is hard to imagine even the bravest Nord attempting to settle on the slopes of Blight-spewing Red Mountain, or in the arid salt fields of the south. Many contemporary Nords, in fact, find Morrowind’s humid climate unpleasant, likely a further deterrent for their ancient kin.
Throughout their occupation, the Nords of The First Empire would have been under constant assault by native resistance. Unlike our modern Tamrielic Empire, no attempt was ever made by The First Empire to extend citizenship to Morrowind’s indigenous population, and neither the Chimer nor the Dwemer were ever entirely pacified through force of arms. Faced with these obstacles, the Nords likely didn’t make a protracted effort to colonize their eastern frontier. Settlements of any significant size would have been built either in the west, close to the motherland, or along the coast. Evidence for the latter is supported by the Nord's endowment for seafaring and modern day coastal settlements of Nord fishermen in places such as Dagon Fel.
Relying on small isolated strongholds to control their territory, the Nords were probably never able to fully exploit the province's natural resources. Instead, Morrowind likely became a haven for sellswords and reavers, drawn eastwards by the prospects of raiding Chimer villages and Dwemer colonies. Included among these raiders was Olmgerd the Outlaw, a bastard son of King Harald Hand-Free who ruled Skyrim before Vrage.
Despite its glorious expansion across the north, The First Empire was destined to last only a few centuries. King Borgas' famous death at the hands of the Wild Hunt plunged his realm into civil war. Instability spread to the provinces, as local Jarls turned their attention to the struggle for the vacant throne. The resulting power vacuum brought about a major political shift in the east. The once scattered Chimer clans, seeing a chance to end Nord incursion into their homeland, allied with the Dwemer to combat a common enemy. Their combined host, led by Indoril Nerevar and Dumac Dwarfking, finally drove the Nords out in the 416th year of the First Era.
The victorious Dunmer, zealous in their hatred of foreign influences, sought out and razed any visible reminder of the Nord occupation over the centuries to come. Though oral traditions speak of a sizable contingent of Nords at the battle of Red Mountain, Skyrim was never to regain its eastern holdings. Other than a large population of Nords in the often contested Uld Vraech, the legacy of The First Empire in Morrowind seems destined to pass from all but the annals of the Nord's hero sagas.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]