ANT Dungeons

[Sload]

So we need to make dungeons in our area actually make sense. Right now they're whatever an ext modder decided to put down at some point, which doesn't necessarily match the level difficulty we want to implement in the Roth Roryn, Thirr River Valley, and Ascadian Coast regions.

The first step is for someone add all current dungeons to this map so we know what we have?

My anticipation is that we will want a few more caves and ancestral tombs than we have now.

[Gnomey]

I posted an initial map of the dungeons currently in the section in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24327]Data thread[/url], though I'll probably work on adding lower-resolution versions.

One concrete thing to decide would be what to do with the Dwemer ruin i4-471 at the bottom right of the section. It currently has an interior claim, but no exterior entrance, its original entrance having been sunk into the ground to represent sedimentation.
I'd personally be for either raising the entrance again or adding an alternate entrance, via a cave or side door.

Otherwise, ruin distribution seems somewhat lackluster. The western side of the claim is pretty well saturated with caves, and I don't think we necessarily need any more Dwemer ruins, Daedric ruins or Velothi towers in the section, but I do think the section could use more of everything else. (Especially OM ruins and ancestral tombs, in my opinion).

[Sload]

I think TRV needs more low-level caves and tombs.

[sasquatch]

I think TRV needs more low-level caves and tombs.

I'm thinking the same. Maybe a couple ancestral tombs related to the plantations in the area. If you guys put up some claims for these I should be able to make some fairly modest tomb interiors for them pretty quickly.

[arvisrend]

I agree with Sload (that the TRV needs more low-level caves and tombs) and disagree with Gnomey (that the western side is well-saturated with caves). IMHO the southwestern part (the AA-TRV buffer zone and the little bit of AA we have in the merge) lacks caves, and we should add some in. Or did you mean the northwestern part, Gnomey? But even then, I guess a few more wouldn't hurt in the Roth Roryn.

Generally, [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23780]my balancing plans[/url] involve the TRV and east AskkC becoming absolute nooblands, while the RR can vary -- most of the roads should be walkable for players just an hour past the prison ship, but the wilderness and far-off places can be harder. I'm not sure if it has been decided how difficult the area between TRV and Alma will be (not the Inlet Bog but the stuff south of it) but I assume it will also be earlygame content. All the exploration we want early-game players to do should be accessible from these areas (I'm leaving LO and NC out of the list because the NC might change its difficulty, and the LO will be too laggy for some players to efficiently fight). This means a certain number of easy caves is needed in these regions, whether or not it will be the TRV (I'd rather hollow out the northern Roth Roryn and the AA-TRV border mountains than the TRV itself, seeing that the TRV doesn't look spacey enough for serious caves and the water is very high).

[Gnomey]

Or did you mean the northwestern part, Gnomey?

I did, yes. As far as the interior Armun Ashlands are concerned, I'd personally advocate leaving most of the work to a future Armun Ashland section, really. From my understanding the main reason those cells are included in this section is so that we can edit the section borders without any trouble. I think interiors should be added in the context of the whole Armun Ashlands rather than from the context of the Thirr and Askaaed Coast.
The borders of the Ashlands are another issue, though, especially that strip of WG we'll be overhauling. Interiors are almost completely lacking there, and certainly should be added.
As for Roth Roryn, while more caves could be squeezed in, I'd actually suggest Ancestral Tombs, if we really want to add more dungeons there. I think dungeons in RR could probably be a good deal tougher than the roads. Players would enter them at their own peril. The less cliffy eastern parts of Roth Roryn could use dungeons, as there are none there at the moment. I'd suggest caves and ancestral tombs, with perhaps one or two small OM ruins.
For TRV, I'd say grottos and possibly small OM ruins, with ancestral tombs and caves in places with more varied elevation, especially the western border of the region where the land sharply rises up. I'd definitely want dungeons in TRV, and currently there are only three or four. Especially considering the fact that, with all of the plantations, large parts of the exterior will probably have no hostile creatures or NPCs.
Finally, the Askaaed Coast could use caves, ancestral tombs and possibly grottos. Maybe OM ruins, but sparingly, possibly without interiors.

[arvisrend]

As for Roth Roryn, while more caves could be squeezed in, I'd actually suggest Ancestral Tombs, if we really want to add more dungeons there.

Yes. They should be the more puzzley variety without too difficult opponents, though.

I think dungeons in RR could probably be a good deal tougher than the roads. Players would enter them at their own peril. The less cliffy eastern parts of Roth Roryn could use dungeons, as there are none there at the moment. I'd suggest caves and ancestral tombs, with perhaps one or two small OM ruins.

OM ruins I'm unsure about. I think they should only be accessible from the underground, at the bottom of another dungeon.

For TRV, I'd say grottos and possibly small OM ruins, with ancestral tombs and caves in places with more varied elevation, especially the western border of the region where the land sharply rises up.

Same about the OM ruins: hidden == good (and hiding is easiest in the mountain range between TRV and AA).

I'd definitely want dungeons in TRV, and currently there are only three or four. Especially considering the fact that, with all of the plantations, large parts of the exterior will probably have no hostile creatures or NPCs.
Finally, the Askaaed Coast could use caves, ancestral tombs and possibly grottos. Maybe OM ruins, but sparingly, possibly without interiors.

The lack of hostiles in TRV and AskC does serve a purpose: these places are supposed to feel safe. And the player should know that he won't get to any riches or adventures just by exploring these regions (although this is arguably untrue with the dungeons already in existence). So I'd rather not have anything creating a sense of darkness and danger in these places: no necromancer caves, no OM ruins in the ext (sorry), no more daedric shrines. The Roth Roryn can have all the spooky stuff, not to mention the Armun Ashes.

[Gnomey]

The OM ruins I'm talking about would be signs of former Indoril habitation. There's no real point to them if they aren't visible in the exterior; if we want to keep OM ruins for higher level places, one or two more in Roth Roryn or the planned mountain range should be more than enough.

I might whip up a quick example of what I'm talking about, but I don't feel that strongly about including them. Giving the ancestral tombs Indoril sounding names already gives a good indication of former Indoril settlement.

As far as the lack of hostiles in TRV is concerned, I don't think caves, grottos and ancestral tombs would hinder that. The interiors would be low-level, and good loot would be largely lacking. It would be the player's choice to explore them or not, and they wouldn't loom over the exterior. I definitely think adding a Daedric ruin wouldn't be a good idea.

[Sload]

I don't have an opinion about OM ruins. I think what kind of dungeons OM ruins are is something that should be decided in master planning & not ANT, though, because presumably they will exist in some other parts of the project.

So can we just get some shells up that people could make ints for for caves & tombs? It doesn't have to be a big production.

[Gnomey]

Should I add a few caves and ancestral tombs to the Askaaed Coast in the north merge?

[arvisrend]

Should I add a few caves and ancestral tombs to the Askaaed Coast in the north merge?

+1 on my part for that.

[Swiftoak]

Done and claims already made and unlocked for Andothren-South (just the TRV parts in 4-13 and 4-26). I suggest adding 2 or 3 more tombs in the RR area, but since that area is probably getting a remake, I decided to hold back. I count 6 new caves and 5 tombs in around the area, and restored the entrance to i4-227 which still needs to be merged. The dwemer ruin i4-471 needs to also be re-merged (I have revealed the door.

I also think it would be a good idea to co-ordinate this with the Othrensis Thirr Section.

[Gnomey]

[url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24377&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]This claim[/url] drew my attention to the fact that the ancestral tomb claim descriptions lack any mention of the fact that the majority of the tombs would belong to Indoril families, as we appear to have more-or-less agreed on.
As long as the majority of those claims are not explicitly associated with House Hlaalu it isn't really an issue. With most generic tombs slapping on an Indoril-sounding name would already do the trick.
That being said, it might be a good idea to add visible indications of Indoril presence, such as bits of Chuzei armour, Indoril clothing and banners, etc.
Also, would the Indoril families still visit the tombs even though they are in Hlaalu lands, or would the tombs for the most part be left untended, with cobwebs and other signs of neglect? I'm assuming the former would be the case.

As I mentioned the i4-499 claim, and because I can't post in the reviewing section, I'll say here that I think there are far too many saint shrines in that interior. At least the six in the last room should probably be replaced by TR's saint banners, in my opinion.