Naval wharf

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:52 am

This thread is to discuss the proposed military port for Old Ebonheart, which would complement the civilian/commercial port and provide a base for the Imperial Navy.

Swiftoak's idea was that the rock on which the castle stands should have a large cavern, big enough to house one or two ships. Aside from looking badass this would provide safe entry and exit from the castle in the event of a land siege.

I was hoping Swiftoak could sketch out his idea so we all understand what's being discussed. It doesn't have to be a work of art, man!

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:02 pm

The idea of a large cavern harbor underneath the fort is great.

It didn't occur me before though that if we end up doing this we will have to rethink what to do with [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12349]i3-287-Imp[/url], which is the current Navy Command Post, since it would be strange to have the navy ships in a different harbor than the navy commander's stationed. (edit: or is it? what do you think; edit2: on second thought this is not an issue, disregard this paragraph)

The most easiest and the fastest solution to the navy issue would be to rearrange / delete some of the civilian vessels to fit the one or two navy ships in the docks we have already. Unfortunately, that wouldn't be as cool as the hidden cove thing.

cookie16 · Post by **cookie16** » Sun Feb 02, 2014 7:27 pm

Not sure if any of you have played P.C Stirk Alpha?
It has a natural rock formation like what you described and its beautiful.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:57 pm

Rats wrote: It didn't occur me before though that if we end up doing this we will have to rethink what to do with [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12349]i3-287-Imp[/url], which is the current Navy Command Post, since it would be strange to have the navy ships in a different harbor than the navy commander's stationed. (edit: or is it? what do you think; edit2: on second thought this is not an issue, disregard this paragraph)

Despite your edit that's a reasonable comment. Why not move the building to the new site (once it exists), and the current spot can be occupied by something else? We could even separate the Harbourmaster and Census & Excise offices that way.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:32 pm

[url=http://imgur.com/JeNF0oj]This is how I see the proposed new dock.[/url]

It should be a fairly dull but straightforward model to make.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:42 pm

I'm not sure whether it needs a new model. Wouldn't a rotated cliff corner do the job just as well?

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:30 pm

Seems unlikely. Would be happy to be proved wrong though

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:10 pm

I tossed together a quick example of what I mean and crammed it full of ships. It's not very high, but that's only because the castle itself would need to be raised to accommodate a larger harbour, and I was trying to keep my edits to a minimum.

Edit: I might see about getting a screenshot of it, but it isn't very easy to get a good angle for the shot.

Post by **rot** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:05 pm

That doesn't look half-bad, even tho gro-Dhal really seems to want a novel wharf ~

quick find something constructive to say

Issues might arise more from how good things look when patched up (ie technical details) than feasability?

Post by **Swiftoak** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:13 pm

While I'm sure the exterior people can do a good job with making it look good using existing assets, I'm more with gro-dhal on this. I still think it would have the wrong feel to it if we didn't do something novel. I'm leaning towards something more memorable for the wharf. Gro-dhal's pic is pretty close to what I had imagined, though I recokon we need some CA before someone like wolli can tackle it. I'm a hyporcite here when it comes to delivering goods I promised though, but I'll get to it soon.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:16 pm

That's pretty sweet actually Gnomey. I'll give Swiftoak a chance to come up with something flashier, but otherwise I like what you've done and would be happy to use it.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:45 pm

A better job could be done, especially if the castle is raised. If there is going to be a new Imperial ship model it would probably be better to wait on it, so that we can be sure that the harbour will be able to accommodate it.

I'm hardly against a new model for the natural harbour, by the way, especially if a modeller is interested. My question was rather whether a new model was necessary.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:28 pm

I think a new model would be cool, but if nobody comes forward with an offer we can improvise something.

Anyone know how to make a formal claim for this? We have the ship models floating about somewhere for reference.

Post by **Haplo** » Fri May 30, 2014 12:14 am

Pardon the 30-second sketch; picture is oriented north.

I think it would be better/more realistic if, instead of the cove being directly, underneath the fort, the cove were out a bit toward the river's mouth: http://i.imgur.com/hKh33yG.jpg

Here, the inner red lines are the roof, with the bent portion of the lines indicated an angling up of the new mesh I think we need no matter what as it moves away from the fort. We would need to deepen the sea floor and remove some of the peninsula west of the fort, but I think that goes without saying, as it isn't serving any purpose and really to be a good cove it needs a graciously-sized bay in front of it.

At any rate, I envision this cove mesh extending the length of the castle island, with the cove opening itself being about as wide as the castle's foundations. This width, coupled with the upward-sloping roof as indicated in the picture above, would allow for a decent amount/size of Imperial naval ship to patrol the mouth of the Thirr and enforce the Imperial's trade tariffs and excise regulations.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:16 pm

Perhaps we could take inspiration from this [url=http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-4_33jB5TG3Y/TmE1Bjq0XyI/AAAAAAAAAF0/c8gZR4r7vy4/s1600/Scampshot19.jpg]cove/cave[/url] from Province Cyrodiil's version of Stirk? I honestly don't think anyone will claim the new cove model in the near future.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:02 pm

I personally wouldn't be against Haplo's proposal for making the cove project from the castle, though I would put some consideration into how it would affect the castle's defensiveness. (Maybe add a curtain wall of some description around the periphery of the roof of the cove?) Either way a certain amount of projection is probably a good idea to increase the capacity of the cove.

I do think (and I think show in my plugin above) that the floor of the castle can be raised to accommodate a cove with minimal changes to the castle itself, though.

As for my position on the idea of forgoing a new model, that hasn't changed.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:06 pm

Cove being under the castle is a metaphor for the hollow foundations of the Imperial occupation.

The P:C thing looks awesome

Tyrant · Post by **Tyrant** » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:31 pm

Quest Idea: Deck Hand

I'd like to see the player able to do simple grunt work at the docks.

I would like to see a persistent quest, where talking to a Load Master at the docks, would allow you to load/unload cargo on and off the ships at the dock. Once per day you could earn an honest paycheque.

Little things like this I feel bring the game to life just a little bit more.

...

Additionally, I think being able to do similar jobs at farms, and maybe even some shops would be pretty good for the game as well.

-

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:35 am

The only problem with that though, is that the player conception of money >>>>>>> any other NPC's conception of money. I think something like 30 gold is a months wage for some people in Morrowind, right?

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:34 am

Ironed Maidens wrote:The only problem with that though, is that the player conception of money >>>>>>> any other NPC's conception of money. I think something like 30 gold is a months wage for some people in Morrowind, right?

This [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Tax_Record]tax record[/url] from a Seyda Neen quest suggests that it's a bit higher than that, though you are still correct: money does not mean as much to players as the game world suggests it should.

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:58 am

Yeti wrote:
Ironed Maidens wrote:The only problem with that though, is that the player conception of money >>>>>>> any other NPC's conception of money. I think something like 30 gold is a months wage for some people in Morrowind, right?
This [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Tax_Record]tax record[/url] from a Seyda Neen quest suggests that it's a bit higher than that, though you are still correct: money does not mean as much to players as the game world suggests it should.

Is that a monthly or yearly income sheet?

Tyrant · Post by **Tyrant** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:18 am

Ironed Maidens wrote:The only problem with that though, is that the player conception of money >>>>>>> any other NPC's conception of money. I think something like 30 gold is a months wage for some people in Morrowind, right?

The point wouldn't be to make a player rich. It's just an activity the player could do which would make the world feel just a little bit more real.

Having said that, if a new player on a fresh save were to arrive in OE while they are still low level, something like this could actually be helpful. Locals could mention that there is work available at the Docks, and a new player could earn a few bucks to buy that starting gear.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:34 am

Their point is that the money from menial tasks would hardly be enough to stay at a tavern. Tasks like this should only be given if they have some redeeming quality or lead into another quest.

For instance: You work at the docks and at the end of 5 min (in-game) worth of work you only earn 5 coin. Standing there insulted, a shady dock worker approaches and offers you a chance to earn some real money by sneaking back to the ship that night and stealing some supplies off the stingy hard-ass of a captain. This could introduce you to a line of smuggling quests and a set of new interesting characters.

Very few people will enjoy menial, repetitive jobs. The player shouldn't have to bother grovelling for change, selling papers etc.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:17 pm

The naval warf sea cave should be removed. I think it is unrealistic and cliche and poorly implemented. If something similar were added it would be best in a more remote area to add another location of interest in a wilderness area. Concentrating the vast majority of planning and interest into settlements is a mistake. We should spread the goodness around so there are more unique features like this in off the path locations to make explorAtion more rewarding. To me this too much a cartoon. The large navy ships should instead be docked offshore with a smaller boat there and at docks that will ferry you for free to the flagship given adequate clearance. This would be much more interesting and reserve a new location as a reward for quest advancement. Before clearance is earned being on the ship might earn played a fine or violent reaction. Removing the sea cave here will improve quality and realism of the area, leave more room for sewer, and spread some of this variety around to better suited location. This and Androthren should be fixed before modifying other completed areas.

Terrifying Daedric Foe · Wed Sep 03, 2014 4:20 pm

Having the fleet docked offshore is more unrealistic in my opinion. The ships would be vulnerable to bad weather and it would be a pain in the rear end to load and unload cargo and crew.

sasquatch2o wrote:Concentrating the vast majority of planning and interest into settlements is a mistake. We should spread the goodness around so there are more unique features like this in off the path locations to make explorAtion more rewarding.

I disagree with this. Settlements are important hubs for quests and services. During the course of a play through the player will probably visit every settlement and will visit some important ones (such as OE) many many times. In contrast they are likely to visit specific wilderness locations once or maybe twice, unless those locations are along a major road. Exploration should be rewarded with interesting things to see, but not at the expense of well-planned and good looking settlements, imo.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:20 pm

sasquatch2o wrote:The naval warf sea cave should be removed. I think it is unrealistic and cliche and poorly implemented.

I don't know how you can say it's poorly implemented when it hasn't been implemented yet. And realism has to be balanced with storytelling. The idea is for it to look cool and underline the defensive nature of the imperial presence in the city. Making the rock beneath Ebonheart hollow is also symbolic of its current state.

As for clichÃƒÂ©, that's a pretty vague criticism. I'm sure it's not completely original, but it's unusual enough.

I'd also like to point out that there's no quota for cool things in this mod. Making OE look awesome doesn't mean we can't put something great in a wilderness cell too. Why don't you make a few suggestions.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:25 pm

Docked inside a sea cave would be the worst possible place to be during a storm. Any ship in there would be destroyed. Harbor is the most dangerous place for a ship to be in bad weather beside being in middle of storm. If attacked while in a sea cave any ship there would also be destroyed. Because it would lack mobility and the ability to fire at an enemy ship. Also to use this cave a path would have to be caved either through rock or along the side of cliff making it extremely impractical for moving goods or constructing in the first place. Entering and exiting such a sea cave would present its own challenges as such a large ship would be unable to turn around or steer out if such a small opening. Some smaller military craft dock in enclosed docks to remain hidden and be sheltered from attack by air. They also are about to maneuver in such caves because they have engines and better steering. The only reason for a sea clave to be used in such a way is to remain concealed, but this cave would be a mystery to no one. Even if you claim this is fantasy so realism is unimportant the cave adds very little and having several ship offshore would add a unique experience. Creating a sea cave here is exhausting a unique feature in a bad location.

What I think should be done:
-do not add sea cave at or near OE
-use this idea elsewhere
+make it a natural cave, uninhabited or for smuggling (cliche, yes. practical, yeah.)
+create it as a large "cave complex"
-create cave in wilderness area that meets shore and a line of scenic beach that players are likely to travel

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:01 pm

Serious storms are not likely to be a major concern on the Inner Sea. The rest- moving goods, manoeuvrability etc are all things that can potentially be taken into account when it's actually made.

sasquatch2o · Post by **sasquatch2o** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:07 pm

Okay, this was a list of reasons to take into account for it not being made. I'm more interested in reasons for it to be here. It will be interesting to see how this turns out when finished.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:04 pm

I actually agree with Sasquatch that the naval sea cave wharf is unnecessary. It's also taking way too much time to implement. We need a completed castle interior more than a fancy place to dock ships.

wollibeebee · Post by **wollibeebee** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:03 pm

Agree with Sasquatch. It's just further poor implementation. I'd much rather have a long and windy cave passage going deep in land for a single small pirate crew.

Yeti · Post by **Yeti** » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:23 pm

wollibeebee wrote:Agree with Sasquatch. It's just further poor implementation. I'd much rather have a long and windy cave passage going deep in land for a single small pirate crew.

Province Cyrodiil already did that.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:22 pm

It would be good to know what everyone else thinks about the wharf. That's three votes against so far.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 1:58 pm

I'll personally abstain from voting; I think all three alternatives could be made to work. (New model, existing assets or neither). For me the main thing is that the Imperial Navy gets put somewhere.

Rats · Post by **Rats** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:33 pm

For the sake of streamlining I'm willing to let go of the wharf idea because -- though mighty cool imo -- it seems to hold back the new Castle exterior as Yeti pointed out.

OE already has a "Navy Command Post" in the existing Docks area: [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12349]i3-278-Imp[/url]. Let's just rearrange the ships in the civilian docks to fit one of the Imperial warships. There could also be a small port islet in the Thirr delta near the city where the rest of the fleet could dock.

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:47 pm

I think a re-imagining of the wharf cave would be ideal. Instead of it seeming like OE is perched on the top of a hollow cavern, I would much prefer a sense of the wharf still be in an enclave but maybe it could be made to look more ancient, kind of like how Azura's Cavern in Vvarfendell looks. I am imagining giant stalagmites drooping down from the ceiling, and really odd glowy mushrooms all along the cavern walls, with blue-ish/purple-ish ambient lighting spotted around, while still seeming like a bustling port for both commerce and warfare. Basically I'm thinking: Imagine you are the first settlers to discover OE, and you see this crazy old cave with an open mouth to the sea. Eventually the docks are built there, because honestly screw the reality idea of storms ruining the ships and whatnot because if that's the case then the entire city of Vivec is implausible. Remember, most things that make Morrowind the most unique game out there are so wild because they follow the good old rule of thumb with lore, 'It is boring, and therefore, WRONG.'

Just a reimagining of how the wharf could look would be more important than scrapping the cave idea all together, because I like it. It symbolizes that the Imperials are in a harsh land that does not like them very much, so they are kind of hidden away, yet always there, watching, waiting to fight.

Post by **rot** » Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:48 pm

Only valid criticism against having something special here is the bottleneck on progress, and that'd be enough of a reason, but I doubt that the harbor really is what's holding up work on the castle right this moment.

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:16 pm

What's the general idea of what the interiors of the castle will look like? I ask mainly because I know how Ebonheart on Vvardenfell has that unique dragon statue there, is that the idea for the exterior or will some other type of unique sculpture be housed in the interior as well? Or even at the wharf, for that matter?

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:15 pm

I think the cave wharf would be cool and would fit our plans perfectly, but I don't think we need to have it. It's not currently a bottleneck, but it will be (I don't see a wharf cave model lying around anywhere...) soon. rot is correct, however, in that the only valid criticism here is a potential bottleneck/hang-up on progress.

Ironed Maidens: there are currently no plans to include dragon statues (or other statues) in OE interiors or exteriors.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 6:33 am

Rats wrote:For the sake of streamlining I'm willing to let go of the wharf idea because -- though mighty cool imo -- it seems to hold back the new Castle exterior as Yeti pointed out.

OE already has a "Navy Command Post" in the existing Docks area: [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12349]i3-278-Imp[/url]. Let's just rearrange the ships in the civilian docks to fit one of the Imperial warships. There could also be a small port islet in the Thirr delta near the city where the rest of the fleet could dock.

Ok let's do this then