This thread is for planning the characters and broad storyline of the Old Ebonheart Thieves Guild, with reference to the city concept: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24304
Note that the Thieves Guild are based in the Empress Katariah Inn. http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12306&highlight=i3228imp
Thieves Guild
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Thieves Guild
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_the OE hall is ran by an offspring of the Raathim clan, Wry-Eye Moranie (family name omitted for not making it too obvious). She has an enchanted eye which gives a nice detect key + night eye effect.
_the yet-undiscovered Raathim ancestral tomb (and its loot, including the death mask of Empress Katariah) will play some role
_the Camonna Tong v. Thieves Guild gang war is much less obvious in OE than elsewhere.
_the yet-undiscovered Raathim ancestral tomb (and its loot, including the death mask of Empress Katariah) will play some role
_the Camonna Tong v. Thieves Guild gang war is much less obvious in OE than elsewhere.
Last edited by Rats on Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Thieves' Guild of OE is in a slightly unusual situation. The city is strongly policed, which makes it hard for them to operate. On the other hand, the native Dunmer authorities have little or no power here and the city isn't inclined to help them.
This means that the TG is of a somewhat different character here than elsewhere. Rather than an urban organisation that robs local houses, the Guild looks outwards. The members here are adventuring types who travel out into Morrowind to steal from tombs, burgle sorcerer's lairs and rob folks in Dunmer towns (anywhere without an existing TG franchise). The OE authorities don't really care much what the guild does outside of city limits, and they'll stonewall Ordinators or House Guards who come hunting for thieves.
They still do a basic trade stealing from sailors and travellers passing through the city, but they're known among the rest of the guild for being larger-than-life characters who commit daring deeds of high crime, anywhere and everywhere. They chase high value, high risk, high prestige targets and consider themselves to be above the common pickpockets and housebreakers of other guild houses.
This means that the TG is of a somewhat different character here than elsewhere. Rather than an urban organisation that robs local houses, the Guild looks outwards. The members here are adventuring types who travel out into Morrowind to steal from tombs, burgle sorcerer's lairs and rob folks in Dunmer towns (anywhere without an existing TG franchise). The OE authorities don't really care much what the guild does outside of city limits, and they'll stonewall Ordinators or House Guards who come hunting for thieves.
They still do a basic trade stealing from sailors and travellers passing through the city, but they're known among the rest of the guild for being larger-than-life characters who commit daring deeds of high crime, anywhere and everywhere. They chase high value, high risk, high prestige targets and consider themselves to be above the common pickpockets and housebreakers of other guild houses.
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Terrifying Daedric Foe
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Some core NPCs. Tone is fairly light but not out of keeping with vanilla (IMO):
The local Mastermind is Cap’n Fentus, an eccentric old rogue who refers to the Empress Katariah inn as his ‘ship’ and to the other Thieves’ Guild members as his ‘crew’. Aside from his nautical affectations he is a capable and crafty figure. He takes particular satisfaction in high risk, high reward capers and sees thieving and adventuring as naturally complementary professions. Typical robbery targets he’ll set are necromancers in Velothi towers, Legion forts, and Tribunal or Daedric temples.
Wry-Eye Moranie is Fentus’s right hand woman, and is secretly descended from the real Empress Katariah (a Dunmer). She oversees the day-to-day activity of the Guild in Old Ebonheart, including their thriving business of robbing drunken sailors on shore leave. She is loyal to the Guild and to the city itself, and cares about its future.
Antio Florane is the big shot star thief of the Old Ebonheart guild. Think Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow etc. Cocky and boastful and obsessed with one-upmanship. Even if you’re Nerevarine he’ll still try to go one better. Eventually he gets into trouble, and you have to rescue him.
Any good?
The local Mastermind is Cap’n Fentus, an eccentric old rogue who refers to the Empress Katariah inn as his ‘ship’ and to the other Thieves’ Guild members as his ‘crew’. Aside from his nautical affectations he is a capable and crafty figure. He takes particular satisfaction in high risk, high reward capers and sees thieving and adventuring as naturally complementary professions. Typical robbery targets he’ll set are necromancers in Velothi towers, Legion forts, and Tribunal or Daedric temples.
Wry-Eye Moranie is Fentus’s right hand woman, and is secretly descended from the real Empress Katariah (a Dunmer). She oversees the day-to-day activity of the Guild in Old Ebonheart, including their thriving business of robbing drunken sailors on shore leave. She is loyal to the Guild and to the city itself, and cares about its future.
Antio Florane is the big shot star thief of the Old Ebonheart guild. Think Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow etc. Cocky and boastful and obsessed with one-upmanship. Even if you’re Nerevarine he’ll still try to go one better. Eventually he gets into trouble, and you have to rescue him.
Any good?
Test
At one point the player is sent to retrieve the Death-Mask of Empress Katariah from the Raathim Ancestral Tomb where the Empress is buried. Moranie's heritage would be revealed there. (Mayhaps a part of the tomb was only accessible to a member of the Raathim clan.)Yeti wrote:What kind of quests do you envision that would link Wry-Eye Moranie to her relationship with the Empress Katariah. gro-Dhal? Would she belong to the Septim bloodline? I don't think we should throw Septims around casually.
The Septim-Raathim line died with Katariah's son Cassynder, so Moranie is not related to the Septims, just the Raathims.
Also: I don't know why my post won't go to the bottom of the thread.
Just a small bit of input on this topic, off the top of my head:
Putting a TG base of operations in the context of OE as it is outlined in the planning thread, it seems that this would be the natural place for operatives with a need to lie low to turn to.
With a guild such as the TG, there would unavoidably be times when the unlucky operative would bite of more than they could chew, and bribing yourself out of it (in the time-tested tradition of the guild) simply wouldn't cut it. The OE guildhouse would make an ideal place to hide out while things cool down, since here, you'd be effectively beyond the reach of any Dunmer law as well as out of reach of the CT. Also, this would be the logical place to ship out of the province altogether, should the situation warrant it.
I think this could provide a good, colourful basis for one or two guild characters, while simultaneously tying the OE branch into the larger context. It also opens up for some interesting sidequests that portray a bit of TG dealings aside from just the regular thieving. Maybe an operative is stuck between a rock and a hard place with the vengeful target of a botched job on one side, and a disgruntled client on the other, where the player is asked to step in and resolve the situation on both sides? Maybe the player is asked to help an operative secure passage out of the province, and then help smuggle said operative onto said ship? There is a lot of stuff that can be done off the back of this.
I don't know, to me this is one of those things that just suggests itself looking at the set premisses.
Putting a TG base of operations in the context of OE as it is outlined in the planning thread, it seems that this would be the natural place for operatives with a need to lie low to turn to.
With a guild such as the TG, there would unavoidably be times when the unlucky operative would bite of more than they could chew, and bribing yourself out of it (in the time-tested tradition of the guild) simply wouldn't cut it. The OE guildhouse would make an ideal place to hide out while things cool down, since here, you'd be effectively beyond the reach of any Dunmer law as well as out of reach of the CT. Also, this would be the logical place to ship out of the province altogether, should the situation warrant it.
I think this could provide a good, colourful basis for one or two guild characters, while simultaneously tying the OE branch into the larger context. It also opens up for some interesting sidequests that portray a bit of TG dealings aside from just the regular thieving. Maybe an operative is stuck between a rock and a hard place with the vengeful target of a botched job on one side, and a disgruntled client on the other, where the player is asked to step in and resolve the situation on both sides? Maybe the player is asked to help an operative secure passage out of the province, and then help smuggle said operative onto said ship? There is a lot of stuff that can be done off the back of this.
I don't know, to me this is one of those things that just suggests itself looking at the set premisses.
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Ironed Maidens
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Contextually, yes. But I also wouldn't mind some archetype of blatantly nasty thieves who've let the full pockets or expensive bedrooms of OE residents get to their heads. Take for example the Ald'Ruhn TG on Vvardenfell. They've got a flavor about them that made them think they were outside of the CT's grasp as well, what with all the Redoran guard around them. But when push came to shove, they ahd to start building Dwemer robots to patrol THE INN they were staying in.EJRS wrote:Just a small bit of input on this topic, off the top of my head:
Putting a TG base of operations in the context of OE as it is outlined in the planning thread, it seems that this would be the natural place for operatives with a need to lie low to turn to.
With a guild such as the TG, there would unavoidably be times when the unlucky operative would bite of more than they could chew, and bribing yourself out of it (in the time-tested tradition of the guild) simply wouldn't cut it. The OE guildhouse would make an ideal place to hide out while things cool down, since here, you'd be effectively beyond the reach of any Dunmer law as well as out of reach of the CT. Also, this would be the logical place to ship out of the province altogether, should the situation warrant it.
I think this could provide a good, colourful basis for one or two guild characters, while simultaneously tying the OE branch into the larger context. It also opens up for some interesting sidequests that portray a bit of TG dealings aside from just the regular thieving. Maybe an operative is stuck between a rock and a hard place with the vengeful target of a botched job on one side, and a disgruntled client on the other, where the player is asked to step in and resolve the situation on both sides? Maybe the player is asked to help an operative secure passage out of the province, and then help smuggle said operative onto said ship? There is a lot of stuff that can be done off the back of this.
I don't know, to me this is one of those things that just suggests itself looking at the set premisses.
So perhaps it being a 'safe haven' is fine for more petty crimes, but let's say one agent screws up reaaaal big and goes for a late-night shakedown of the wrong noble or relative of the wrong person in the counsel. Suddenly there is no safe-haven and there's only a lot of bad times ahead for that charter of the TG.
What would be optimal is maybe a little of both? One quest to help out a guild mate who is in a stuck situation who needs help out of the province; and one who screwed up so badly that when the TG found out what he did they considered just abandoning the HQ and starting anew. Maybe a repeat offender, or even the activities of what this particular 'renegade' thief does brings too many noses snooping around their base of operations.
All types of crazy criminals could be attracted to the OE area, just based on the archival of records and the cartography map room itself. (What kind of good thief wouldn't want a detailed map of every potential Septim goldmine out there?)
EDIT: And also let's not forget about hearsay criminals, who may not even be TG but have heard about the location of their hideout and figure it's a final alternative to going to jail forever or being killed, so they want to test their luck with going there and hoping to blend in. I think the important thing to keep in mind is MW was made in a time where it was important to use your imagination to fill in the blanks. Vivec is supposed to be flooded from top to bottom in people, like a modern day NYC. Only with pilgrims and outlanders and nobles and etc etc etc. So I would think that even though in-game it might be impossible to show huge carts of goods being transported from gate to harbor, or to show huge groups of ornamental-clad Legion Solders hopping through the streets hailing Uriel Septim, it is still a believable functionality of the city.
Maybe in a roundabout way, that's what made Vvardenfell what it was; the gaps they kind of filled in with literary imagery. :/
Last edited by Ironed Maidens on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Yeti
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What kind of quests do you envision that would link Wry-Eye Moranie to her relationship with the Empress Katariah. gro-Dhal? Would she belong to the Septim bloodline? I don't think we should throw Septims around casually.
-Head of NPCs: [url=http://www.shotn.com/forums/]Skyrim: Home of the Nords[/url]
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I really like the idea of a powerful but subtle organized crime presence in OE.
I envision a vibrant bustling city by day, but a darker, more sinister place by night.
The way I see it, OE would appear to be perfect city, free of crime and such, but have a much more dark underbelly that would be hard to even know exists.
Although crime would have a very strong presence in OE, it would take place in the dark alleys and poor parts of town, so as to be out of the eye of the public. Couple that with regular bribes to the local guards and no one would notice anything wrong at all.
-I feel OE should absolutely have a TG
-I feel it should be very difficult to join
-I feel it should conflict directly with the FG main questline.
Here's how the questline would roughly go in my mind-
The player would start off as a peddler, selling skooma in dark alleys at night, paying some bribes to guards, etc.
To upgrade yourself to the next level in the TG I would like to see a quest where you have to spend time in jail, taking the fall for a higher ranking guild member.
After this, I would like to see the quests progress to bigger and bigger heists in the manors of OE.
All the while, you are forced to elude guards with larger bribes as the heists get more lucrative.
Eventually, in the climax of the TG questline you are forced to deal with a particularly Heroic Imperial Guard who always seems to be hot on your case.
In the end, you would be given a choice on how to deal with him.
- Assassinate the guard, either in his home, or at some event
- Frame the guard for a crime, by gathering false evidence and planting it in his office.
If people are interested in this, I could draw something up in much greater detail.
I envision a vibrant bustling city by day, but a darker, more sinister place by night.
The way I see it, OE would appear to be perfect city, free of crime and such, but have a much more dark underbelly that would be hard to even know exists.
Although crime would have a very strong presence in OE, it would take place in the dark alleys and poor parts of town, so as to be out of the eye of the public. Couple that with regular bribes to the local guards and no one would notice anything wrong at all.
-I feel OE should absolutely have a TG
-I feel it should be very difficult to join
-I feel it should conflict directly with the FG main questline.
Here's how the questline would roughly go in my mind-
The player would start off as a peddler, selling skooma in dark alleys at night, paying some bribes to guards, etc.
To upgrade yourself to the next level in the TG I would like to see a quest where you have to spend time in jail, taking the fall for a higher ranking guild member.
After this, I would like to see the quests progress to bigger and bigger heists in the manors of OE.
All the while, you are forced to elude guards with larger bribes as the heists get more lucrative.
Eventually, in the climax of the TG questline you are forced to deal with a particularly Heroic Imperial Guard who always seems to be hot on your case.
In the end, you would be given a choice on how to deal with him.
- Assassinate the guard, either in his home, or at some event
- Frame the guard for a crime, by gathering false evidence and planting it in his office.
If people are interested in this, I could draw something up in much greater detail.
Mourn for us oppressed in fear
Chained and shackled, we are bound
Freedom choked in dread we live
Since Tyrant was enthroned
Chained and shackled, we are bound
Freedom choked in dread we live
Since Tyrant was enthroned
Not a Septim. Links to Katariah presumably come via her death mask, which is hidden beneath the city.Yeti wrote:What kind of quests do you envision that would link Wry-Eye Moranie to her relationship with the Empress Katariah. gro-Dhal? Would she belong to the Septim bloodline? I don't think we should throw Septims around casually.
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Dormichigan64
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Re: .
I think that's a great idea. Maybe you have to go to jail to break a rich person out. But later you find out that that person is actually a high ranking officer who is trying to get you busted.Tyrant wrote:To upgrade yourself to the next level in the TG I would like to see a quest where you have to spend time in jail, taking the fall for a higher ranking guild member.
"When life gives you lemonade, make lemons. And life will be all like 'what??'" - Phil Dunphy's Phil's-osophy
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Just to add, I would like this Quest Line to be fairly dialogue-dependent for much of it.
This is where players with a high Speechcraft skill would be rewarded, especially considering Morrowinds somewhat wanting stealth system.
I would like to make significant parts of the TG questline around, bribing officials, guards, nobles etc. in order to expand the crime presence in the city.
Getting the authorities in the pocket of the TG, a long with negotiating Misc. deals with other groups should be a large part of the TG missions.
I thinking 'Fantasy-themed Goodfellas' here
This is where players with a high Speechcraft skill would be rewarded, especially considering Morrowinds somewhat wanting stealth system.
I would like to make significant parts of the TG questline around, bribing officials, guards, nobles etc. in order to expand the crime presence in the city.
Getting the authorities in the pocket of the TG, a long with negotiating Misc. deals with other groups should be a large part of the TG missions.
I thinking 'Fantasy-themed Goodfellas' here
Mourn for us oppressed in fear
Chained and shackled, we are bound
Freedom choked in dread we live
Since Tyrant was enthroned
Chained and shackled, we are bound
Freedom choked in dread we live
Since Tyrant was enthroned
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Dormichigan64
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It can't just be talk talk talk. We have to make it rewarding for everyone else (sneakers), too, even if it's based around persuasion. Agree?
"When life gives you lemonade, make lemons. And life will be all like 'what??'" - Phil Dunphy's Phil's-osophy
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Shhh, bunny be snoozing. lolcatz
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Dormichigan64
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This is what I think would be a cool idea for the quest line:
You start off doing simple tasks for the guild. A little later, you would be sent to dead drops scattered across the city. The last one would include orders telling you to go to jail to break someone out (maybe through the sewers). Upon breaking out, however, the person you helped escape would be all like "got you now, b!tch" and try to take you away because what you didn't know is that the dead drops were actually forged by him -- you were helping him sabotage the guild. But, of course, you get away and the guild lives on happily ever after, except that they need to fix up everything that you messed up.
Then, as revenge, you have to somehow get the "bad guy" to jail. Cool?
You start off doing simple tasks for the guild. A little later, you would be sent to dead drops scattered across the city. The last one would include orders telling you to go to jail to break someone out (maybe through the sewers). Upon breaking out, however, the person you helped escape would be all like "got you now, b!tch" and try to take you away because what you didn't know is that the dead drops were actually forged by him -- you were helping him sabotage the guild. But, of course, you get away and the guild lives on happily ever after, except that they need to fix up everything that you messed up.
Then, as revenge, you have to somehow get the "bad guy" to jail. Cool?
"When life gives you lemonade, make lemons. And life will be all like 'what??'" - Phil Dunphy's Phil's-osophy
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Shhh, bunny be snoozing. lolcatz
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Shhh, bunny be snoozing. lolcatz
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Ironed Maidens
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Soul-Blighter
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Re: Thieves Guild
First of all, Hello everyone! I am new to this, but I thought I could make a helpful suggestion, or just throwing an idea out there really.gro-Dhal wrote:This thread is for planning the characters and broad storyline of the Old Ebonheart Thieves Guild, with reference to the city concept: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24304
Note that the Thieves Guild are based in the Empress Katariah Inn. http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12306&highlight=i3228imp
I was reading up on your ideas listed here, such as Old Ebonhart being super secure and locked down tight by security of the Legion. And also how you say the TG should have a real secure base of operations. So expanding on the hidden basement of the Inn/pub they will be located in I was thinking this would probably be a place of advanced thieves. As in, not a place for the usual "would you like to join the theives guild" sort of approach.
Perhaps a "code word" or "badge" of sorts could be given to the barkeep/proprietor to let you in and unlock the "members only" part of the hideout. So only a thief well into the faction could participate in their quests and such. This would also help keep such an experienced part of the guild flushed of potential endangerment to being exposed in such a tight knit place as Old Ebonhart.
Re: Thieves Guild
Hi, Soul-Blighter and welcome!
As luck would have it, there will be a "members only" sanctuary in the sewers under the innSoul-Blighter wrote:[...] the "members only" part of the hideout. So only a thief well into the faction could participate in their quests and such. This would also help keep such an experienced part of the guild flushed of potential endangerment to being exposed in such a tight knit place as Old Ebonhart.
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Soul-Blighter
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Re: Thieves Guild
Hi Rats! And thank you friend! Super excited to be able to help in any way I can!Rats wrote:Hi, Soul-Blighter and welcome!
I was reading up on some of your other ideas involving this city of OE being in a lot of trouble due to grave tension among the Imperials, and the local Houses creeping in for a piece of the pie. And no doubt the citizens and such would reflect this fear with local rumors and all that.
SO, what I would like to suggest is no doubt the Thieves Guild (being the underground society) is on top of all this easy. So, perhaps the advanced part of the quest line would involve a larger part of intrigue, taking advantage of the tensions and inflating them by falsifying evidence (incriminating letters, planting evidence, inciting riots) to make the other factions get at each others throats (to the point of fighting even).
THEN in the chaos, while the legion is trying desperately to contain security in other parts of the city, the TG uses the necessary distraction to pull off some MAJOR heist they'd otherwise not be able to do. Maybe even stealing large hauls from multiple factions, coming off scot-free (if successful), and of course the other factions would be so blind with outrage, they'd naturally blame each other for the treachery.
Plus in this way, you could implement both dialogue/persuasion and the sneaking/stealing intrigue situations that both Tyrant and Dormichigan64 suggested.
Last edited by Soul-Blighter on Mon Sep 29, 2014 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dormichigan64
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A layout of the quest:
You start out doing regular TG stuff, then you are told that it's not safe to discuss matters wherever they are now anymore. You are sent to dead drops scattered across the city. once you are done with the drops, you go back to the HQ and you are told that those dead drops were sent by the boss who turns out to be, secretly, the captain of the guards. standing in peril, you take the risk of tricking the guards into arresting the captain. While you have the chance, you preform the heist by: 1. breaking a guy out of jail who the TG have been trying to break out out for a while because he can find a way to preform the heist (break out via sneaking), 2. going on a boat to Castle Ebonheart where a team of thieves is waiting, 3. conduct your own plan on how the heist will go, commanding the team what to do, and deciding how to approach it.
You start out doing regular TG stuff, then you are told that it's not safe to discuss matters wherever they are now anymore. You are sent to dead drops scattered across the city. once you are done with the drops, you go back to the HQ and you are told that those dead drops were sent by the boss who turns out to be, secretly, the captain of the guards. standing in peril, you take the risk of tricking the guards into arresting the captain. While you have the chance, you preform the heist by: 1. breaking a guy out of jail who the TG have been trying to break out out for a while because he can find a way to preform the heist (break out via sneaking), 2. going on a boat to Castle Ebonheart where a team of thieves is waiting, 3. conduct your own plan on how the heist will go, commanding the team what to do, and deciding how to approach it.
"When life gives you lemonade, make lemons. And life will be all like 'what??'" - Phil Dunphy's Phil's-osophy
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Shhh, bunny be snoozing. lolcatz
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sasquatch2o
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I'd like the Thieves Guild here to be very decentralized and to have a base that is completely inaccessible and hidden until later stages of questline. Entry into the organization should instead be made through separate contacts spread throughout the city. These would be individuals tasked with shuttling messages and parcels, or arranging meetings in key areas of the city. Gaining their trust would introduce player to separate TG "enclaves."
TG enclaves could exist in small out of the way apartments, seedy tavern, or back alley where OG thieves sit on crates etc. In several Thieves Guild "enclaves" menial TG tasks would be managed. TG characters here would grease the wheels of operation in the city and the allow for greater level or secrecy and protection from investigators. The final TG base would be hidden even further and completely inaccessible until trust of all three enclaves is earned. Reasons for this type of guild setup would be a high level of law enforcement in OE.
TG enclaves could exist in small out of the way apartments, seedy tavern, or back alley where OG thieves sit on crates etc. In several Thieves Guild "enclaves" menial TG tasks would be managed. TG characters here would grease the wheels of operation in the city and the allow for greater level or secrecy and protection from investigators. The final TG base would be hidden even further and completely inaccessible until trust of all three enclaves is earned. Reasons for this type of guild setup would be a high level of law enforcement in OE.
Last edited by sasquatch2o on Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
my opinion.
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Soul-Blighter
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I second sasquatch2o's brilliant idea!
It is my opinion that this would ensure that the main force of the TG in this area is kept clear of potential risks of newer or inexperienced members. And also makes sure that the PC has to get "initiated" by getting their hands dirty to prove their loyalty so to speak. And like sasquatch2o noted this helps promote the feeling of this being a very secure and tightly guarded city.
This would also help build momentum to lead up to Dormichigan64's prison heist.
It is my opinion that this would ensure that the main force of the TG in this area is kept clear of potential risks of newer or inexperienced members. And also makes sure that the PC has to get "initiated" by getting their hands dirty to prove their loyalty so to speak. And like sasquatch2o noted this helps promote the feeling of this being a very secure and tightly guarded city.
This would also help build momentum to lead up to Dormichigan64's prison heist.
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Dormichigan64
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I wasn't necessarily saying that the HQ isn't secretive. In fact, I was thinking of a well secured place, But that doesn't mean that the guards can't look into it or be clueless as to where they are. I do like what saquatch said, though.
"When life gives you lemonade, make lemons. And life will be all like 'what??'" - Phil Dunphy's Phil's-osophy
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sasquatch2o
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Here is my suggestion for organization of Old Ebonheart Theives Guild:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/sVeDqqN.jpg[/img]
The idea here is the creation of a decentralized highly secretive organization in the city that will help evade police and prevent infiltration.
The three theft rings are the main working parts of the organization. Each is independent of each other and beside the leader of each ring or those already with access to inner circle know for certain the existence of the parts of the organization in the city. This provides a high level of security for inner members. Initially player's only interaction with TG here would be through notes, drop-points, or brief interactions with contacts in relevant areas.
____________________________________________
Organization:
Main Hideout - Inner circle
1 main leader
2 advisers
4 members
1 contact - internal to the organization (dedicated contact between inner circle and ringleaders)
Docks - Dedicated to cargo
1 ringleader
3 initiates
1 contact
might not necessarily have an actual base of operation, could be simply a meeting spot in exterior
Apartment - Petty Theft & Errands
1 ringleader
3 initiates
1 contact
Tavern - Information Gathering
1 ringleader
3 initiates
1 contact
Total: 23
[img]http://i.imgur.com/sVeDqqN.jpg[/img]
The idea here is the creation of a decentralized highly secretive organization in the city that will help evade police and prevent infiltration.
The three theft rings are the main working parts of the organization. Each is independent of each other and beside the leader of each ring or those already with access to inner circle know for certain the existence of the parts of the organization in the city. This provides a high level of security for inner members. Initially player's only interaction with TG here would be through notes, drop-points, or brief interactions with contacts in relevant areas.
____________________________________________
Organization:
Main Hideout - Inner circle
1 main leader
2 advisers
4 members
1 contact - internal to the organization (dedicated contact between inner circle and ringleaders)
Docks - Dedicated to cargo
1 ringleader
3 initiates
1 contact
might not necessarily have an actual base of operation, could be simply a meeting spot in exterior
Apartment - Petty Theft & Errands
1 ringleader
3 initiates
1 contact
Tavern - Information Gathering
1 ringleader
3 initiates
1 contact
Total: 23
Last edited by sasquatch2o on Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
my opinion.
It seems reasonable to divide up the organisation like this, but this is going to be too many members. This is an important city but not a huge one, and the operation doesn't need to be significantly larger than, say, the Balmora guild (7 NPCs).
Also a general note to everyone suggesting quest ideas- the city-based questline and the main TG story are separate things (although they can be connected in theory). The large-scale stuff is for the TG main questline, which is still a long way off. A city-focused questline needs to illustrate the character of the local guild without upsetting the applecart.
Also a general note to everyone suggesting quest ideas- the city-based questline and the main TG story are separate things (although they can be connected in theory). The large-scale stuff is for the TG main questline, which is still a long way off. A city-focused questline needs to illustrate the character of the local guild without upsetting the applecart.
Test
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sasquatch2o
- Developer
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- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:56 pm
The number of people in a Thieves Guild setup like this should be at least 14-16. Initiates would be blank NPCs and the satellite operations are almost entirely separate entities.
The members of the main hideout would be the only fairly independently operating TG NPC of purpose. Perhaps each would have specialty or training. They would operate like one of the thief rings but with direct connection to inner circle and as mentioned and with more freedom to choose tasks. Anything less than about 15 TG NPC in a setup like this would be too few.
The members of the main hideout would be the only fairly independently operating TG NPC of purpose. Perhaps each would have specialty or training. They would operate like one of the thief rings but with direct connection to inner circle and as mentioned and with more freedom to choose tasks. Anything less than about 15 TG NPC in a setup like this would be too few.
my opinion.
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sasquatch2o
- Developer
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:56 pm
Here is an alternate model with reduced #s and better mobility for goods and improved communication between lower ranks. It would only minimally compromise security between the three satellite operations since the inner contact would remain the only connection inner circle and satellite operations. The dock leader could be replaced with contact since it could be slightly more transparent so goods can be moved more easily.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/CWtvhGv.jpg[/img]
# is at 17 here. The tavern could be further reduced to something like a single information broker and a contact. Could be the information broker keeps ears to the ground on people and important happenings to scout out secretive big heists or smuggling opportunities. However, it would make more sense for an information broker to have a couple informants under thumb.
Organization:
Main Hideout - Inner circle
1 main leader
1 advisers
3 members - fairly autonomous members
1 contact - internal to the organization (dedicated contact between inner circle and ringleaders)
Docks - Dedicated to cargo
1 ringleader/ contact
2 initiates
might not necessarily have an actual base of operation, could be simply a meeting spot in exterior
Apartment - Petty Theft & Errands
1 ringleader
2 initiates
1 contact
Tavern - Information Gathering
1 ringleader - information broker
2 initiates - informants
1 contact
Total: 17
The tavern could be further reduced to something like a single information broker and a contact. Could be the information broker keeps ears to the ground on people and important happenings to scout out secretive big heists or smuggling opportunities. However, it would make more sense for an information broker to have a couple informants under thumb.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/CWtvhGv.jpg[/img]
# is at 17 here. The tavern could be further reduced to something like a single information broker and a contact. Could be the information broker keeps ears to the ground on people and important happenings to scout out secretive big heists or smuggling opportunities. However, it would make more sense for an information broker to have a couple informants under thumb.
Organization:
Main Hideout - Inner circle
1 main leader
1 advisers
3 members - fairly autonomous members
1 contact - internal to the organization (dedicated contact between inner circle and ringleaders)
Docks - Dedicated to cargo
1 ringleader/ contact
2 initiates
might not necessarily have an actual base of operation, could be simply a meeting spot in exterior
Apartment - Petty Theft & Errands
1 ringleader
2 initiates
1 contact
Tavern - Information Gathering
1 ringleader - information broker
2 initiates - informants
1 contact
Total: 17
The tavern could be further reduced to something like a single information broker and a contact. Could be the information broker keeps ears to the ground on people and important happenings to scout out secretive big heists or smuggling opportunities. However, it would make more sense for an information broker to have a couple informants under thumb.
my opinion.
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sasquatch2o
- Developer
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:56 pm
FOr OE Thieves guild I would like the player to have to do some digging to uncover the organization. As I proposed before the main Thieves Guild cell and their workings should be deeply hidden in the city. I propose a non-linear questline if possible that would start with the player poking around the city or hearing rumors of criminal activity and corruption. These clues would lead to contacting different criminal cells within the city. Perhaps they are only loosely related maybe they could function simply as a way to find the actual TG.
Here is an example of the type of quest structure I'd like for pre TG quests:
Start At Docks
Docks:
Smuggling
Player may hear rumors of missing supplies or shiftless workers at the docks.
Arriving at the docks you are presented with an opportunity to do some and at the end of 5 min (in-game) worth of work you only earn 5 coin. Standing there insulted, a shady dock worker approaches and offers you a chance to earn some real money by sneaking back to the ship that night and stealing some supplies off the stingy hard-ass of a captain. This could introduce you to a line of smuggling quests and cast of characters related to smuggling goods in or out of the city. WIP
Quest 2 - Errand
?
Quest 3 - Make a Delivery
Someone within the smuggling ring has been taken prisoner on suspicion of stealing imperial goods. The action was taken without approval of the ring leader or the knowledge of the rest of the group. Precautions are normally taken to avoid suspicion and goods carefully selected. You have shown yourself to be useful to the group and trustworthy. The player will take the place of the other guy and make a delivery of smuggled goods to another city. There the player will meet a contact and two goons from the receiving smuggling group. Maybe the person who hired them is also there to inspect the goods. They will be highly suspicious expecting the other member to be there.
After goods have been inspected the contact/contractor will ask for an additional package that was not discussed with you and that you do not have. The contact will become very angry and demand you pay him the cost of the missing goods (something very high beyond reason but based on player level). An alternative is that there be some blurb about "this wasnt part of the deal" personality check. Player may, based on personality attribute in relation to level, attempt to persuade that they did not keep the goods or know what he is referring to. If they succeed they will explain the deal that the last guy had going on the side and ask that you continue providing needed goods (They mention the Thieves Guild). Alternatively if player pay steep price, they stand there by the boats and crates discussing the issue among themselves/ walk back into town (You will overhear them mentioning the Thieves Guild). If player refuses gold or fails persuasion they will attack (should be very difficult combat), contact will have contract on his person outlining the deal with thieves guild.
Quest 4 - WTF
Upon return talk to group about this and they will tell player to ask the man in prison about the encounter. Visiting in jail will yield no results. Returning to to group they will tell you this deal may have compromised the security of their organization and task you with finding out more. Until then they will rely only on a single captain they have on payroll, but it is hurting profits so taking care of this in a timely fashion is important. They suggest a tavern where shady characters meet, talking to people there may help. There the player meets the Information Broker's contact. She agrees to provide you the information, but first needs a favor.
Tavern:
The Information Broker
Quest 1 - Favor For a Secret
The jailbird is likely to cause problems for certain people. He needs to be dealt with. Goto the jail and offer him his most choice food and drink with a mysterious sealed note. When player returns to the jail they may:
1- offer the poisoned food and note
2- give the note and warn that unless they give their full story they will be killed (personality check)
Result
1- guy in cell reads note and thanks you profusely, after this player watches jail guy choke and die on the poisoned food. Character return to information broker who gives you name and location of "apartment petty theft ring." You may also return to docks to tell them their security problems have been solved. (Player may continue addition quest for Information Broker)
2- if player fails check, option 1 would be only choice that will allow quest progression. On success, guy in cell will explain he had been working with a theft ring on the side. He thanks you for warning him and provides the location of the apartment and suggests you take his place smuggling whatever choice goods previous contact desired. He also swears he has not compromised anyone in the smuggling group.
-player returns to Information broker contact who will refuse you the information you need, already knowing you failed to finish your task
-player may return to docks to inform smuggling ring of jail guy's loyalty and finish smuggling quest 4
(Player will receive no additional quest from information broker)
Small Apartment:
Theft Ring
Player does some petty tasks for street level thieves here and after gaining their trust with some final quest and making waves in the OE criminal underworld with some final quest is referred to the actual TG. (given location and key or password to enter TG lair)
Preferably after completing quests like this the player would have opportunity to do 1 or two more quests that connect each faction and are independent of TG and that TG quests will interact with these organizations as well. Maybe one could be directly controlled while another is loosely affiliated with Thieves Guild.
Something even less linear would be nice too. Maybe other favors would be required o more back and forth between groups. What I like about this kind of setup though is it creates a whole criminal underground that the player can interact with and explore. It also sets the stage for later quests where the player would feel like they already have some backstory and stake in it. Maybe at later stages the thieves guild could vie for control of the city's black market with other criminal organizations. Lore wise you guys can much more easily say whether something like this could work.
Last point I want to make is that while original #s may seem high there would be a limited cast of characters of importance and interaction. If only the "inner circle" and petty thieves were actually part of OE thieves guild it would also reduce numbers and leave the other groups open for more creative options. If information brokers were reduced to a single guy total criminals in city would # 14.
Hopefully this makes sense and stirs some discussion. I'll post add more later to the above questline and some alternatives.
Here is an example of the type of quest structure I'd like for pre TG quests:
Start At Docks
Docks:
Smuggling
Player may hear rumors of missing supplies or shiftless workers at the docks.
Arriving at the docks you are presented with an opportunity to do some and at the end of 5 min (in-game) worth of work you only earn 5 coin. Standing there insulted, a shady dock worker approaches and offers you a chance to earn some real money by sneaking back to the ship that night and stealing some supplies off the stingy hard-ass of a captain. This could introduce you to a line of smuggling quests and cast of characters related to smuggling goods in or out of the city. WIP
Quest 2 - Errand
?
Quest 3 - Make a Delivery
Someone within the smuggling ring has been taken prisoner on suspicion of stealing imperial goods. The action was taken without approval of the ring leader or the knowledge of the rest of the group. Precautions are normally taken to avoid suspicion and goods carefully selected. You have shown yourself to be useful to the group and trustworthy. The player will take the place of the other guy and make a delivery of smuggled goods to another city. There the player will meet a contact and two goons from the receiving smuggling group. Maybe the person who hired them is also there to inspect the goods. They will be highly suspicious expecting the other member to be there.
After goods have been inspected the contact/contractor will ask for an additional package that was not discussed with you and that you do not have. The contact will become very angry and demand you pay him the cost of the missing goods (something very high beyond reason but based on player level). An alternative is that there be some blurb about "this wasnt part of the deal" personality check. Player may, based on personality attribute in relation to level, attempt to persuade that they did not keep the goods or know what he is referring to. If they succeed they will explain the deal that the last guy had going on the side and ask that you continue providing needed goods (They mention the Thieves Guild). Alternatively if player pay steep price, they stand there by the boats and crates discussing the issue among themselves/ walk back into town (You will overhear them mentioning the Thieves Guild). If player refuses gold or fails persuasion they will attack (should be very difficult combat), contact will have contract on his person outlining the deal with thieves guild.
Quest 4 - WTF
Upon return talk to group about this and they will tell player to ask the man in prison about the encounter. Visiting in jail will yield no results. Returning to to group they will tell you this deal may have compromised the security of their organization and task you with finding out more. Until then they will rely only on a single captain they have on payroll, but it is hurting profits so taking care of this in a timely fashion is important. They suggest a tavern where shady characters meet, talking to people there may help. There the player meets the Information Broker's contact. She agrees to provide you the information, but first needs a favor.
Tavern:
The Information Broker
Quest 1 - Favor For a Secret
The jailbird is likely to cause problems for certain people. He needs to be dealt with. Goto the jail and offer him his most choice food and drink with a mysterious sealed note. When player returns to the jail they may:
1- offer the poisoned food and note
2- give the note and warn that unless they give their full story they will be killed (personality check)
Result
1- guy in cell reads note and thanks you profusely, after this player watches jail guy choke and die on the poisoned food. Character return to information broker who gives you name and location of "apartment petty theft ring." You may also return to docks to tell them their security problems have been solved. (Player may continue addition quest for Information Broker)
2- if player fails check, option 1 would be only choice that will allow quest progression. On success, guy in cell will explain he had been working with a theft ring on the side. He thanks you for warning him and provides the location of the apartment and suggests you take his place smuggling whatever choice goods previous contact desired. He also swears he has not compromised anyone in the smuggling group.
-player returns to Information broker contact who will refuse you the information you need, already knowing you failed to finish your task
-player may return to docks to inform smuggling ring of jail guy's loyalty and finish smuggling quest 4
(Player will receive no additional quest from information broker)
Small Apartment:
Theft Ring
Player does some petty tasks for street level thieves here and after gaining their trust with some final quest and making waves in the OE criminal underworld with some final quest is referred to the actual TG. (given location and key or password to enter TG lair)
Preferably after completing quests like this the player would have opportunity to do 1 or two more quests that connect each faction and are independent of TG and that TG quests will interact with these organizations as well. Maybe one could be directly controlled while another is loosely affiliated with Thieves Guild.
Something even less linear would be nice too. Maybe other favors would be required o more back and forth between groups. What I like about this kind of setup though is it creates a whole criminal underground that the player can interact with and explore. It also sets the stage for later quests where the player would feel like they already have some backstory and stake in it. Maybe at later stages the thieves guild could vie for control of the city's black market with other criminal organizations. Lore wise you guys can much more easily say whether something like this could work.
Last point I want to make is that while original #s may seem high there would be a limited cast of characters of importance and interaction. If only the "inner circle" and petty thieves were actually part of OE thieves guild it would also reduce numbers and leave the other groups open for more creative options. If information brokers were reduced to a single guy total criminals in city would # 14.
Hopefully this makes sense and stirs some discussion. I'll post add more later to the above questline and some alternatives.
my opinion.
-
sasquatch2o
- Developer
- Posts: 325
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:56 pm
A Rat I
Player takes quest to rob something. Enter house through window. Upon entering entrance will be disabled and doors temporarily barred. Guards inside will take player to jail on suspicion of vein involved in TG. TG will pay fines and meet player at jail.
A Rat II: Rogue Informant:
Intrigue quest. After player is caught for the robbery (player released from prison) it is clear the guard knew of the heist beforehand as they were waiting at the location with doors bar'd. It is initially believed te job was a setup from within the organization. After the player investigates further they find information provided was good and their contact solid. It should have been an easy score and a clean getaway. TG leaders will tell player it is clear there is a mole. The plans for the heist were unfortunately widely known. The information broker is an unlikely suspect as he removes himself from interfering with TG business on account of them so frequently using his services. Speaking with him will yield no result even if offered coin. He knows nothing through his informants of a potential mole and does not suspect their disloyalty, he would know. Possible moles are limited to those within the organization. Leadership knows player is no suspect and hatch plan to reveal the informant. A new heist is planned, a big one, with limited people knowing the details.
Only player an leader are aware of the actual plan. Player will give each member a limited role in heist but be told a different location. Each will be told multiple undisclosed members are aware of and involved in the plan. The value of the heist an number of members involved make this a perfect opportunity for a would-be informant. In reality each plan is a fake. Player May contract information broker to watch each location if they believe he and his informants can be trusted or stake out the locations themselves. Stakeout is done sequentially. Each time player speaks with contact on street the next member will be contacted to begin their plan. Guard will enter one of the buildings revealing the mole.
A Rat III:
confront mole to discover their reasons for betrayal.
Player takes quest to rob something. Enter house through window. Upon entering entrance will be disabled and doors temporarily barred. Guards inside will take player to jail on suspicion of vein involved in TG. TG will pay fines and meet player at jail.
A Rat II: Rogue Informant:
Intrigue quest. After player is caught for the robbery (player released from prison) it is clear the guard knew of the heist beforehand as they were waiting at the location with doors bar'd. It is initially believed te job was a setup from within the organization. After the player investigates further they find information provided was good and their contact solid. It should have been an easy score and a clean getaway. TG leaders will tell player it is clear there is a mole. The plans for the heist were unfortunately widely known. The information broker is an unlikely suspect as he removes himself from interfering with TG business on account of them so frequently using his services. Speaking with him will yield no result even if offered coin. He knows nothing through his informants of a potential mole and does not suspect their disloyalty, he would know. Possible moles are limited to those within the organization. Leadership knows player is no suspect and hatch plan to reveal the informant. A new heist is planned, a big one, with limited people knowing the details.
Only player an leader are aware of the actual plan. Player will give each member a limited role in heist but be told a different location. Each will be told multiple undisclosed members are aware of and involved in the plan. The value of the heist an number of members involved make this a perfect opportunity for a would-be informant. In reality each plan is a fake. Player May contract information broker to watch each location if they believe he and his informants can be trusted or stake out the locations themselves. Stakeout is done sequentially. Each time player speaks with contact on street the next member will be contacted to begin their plan. Guard will enter one of the buildings revealing the mole.
A Rat III:
confront mole to discover their reasons for betrayal.
my opinion.
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Tondollari
- Developer
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:42 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Very incomplete outline for Thieves' Guild:
It should be impossible for newbies to join the OE branch in a straightforward fashion. It would be best to join up elsewhere and build credential, but I propose that there be an alternative introduction into the guild: through local loanshark/crimelord Otrebus Delagia.
Thieves not associated with the guild will be nudged towards Otrebus for work. Current guild members will be unable to join his small crew. He will have a small questline involving:
1.) Collecting loan payments from slum residents and/or shops.
2.) Stealing a fine sword/shield (for Otrebus' use) from some local rich folks.
3.) A final quest that has two choices. Either the player gets an intro into the Thieves' guild (earning Otrebus' scorn), or does something that spoils the OE branch's disposition towards the player (player would have to work harder to gain trust with the OE branch).
Once in the guild, quests will include (very incomplete):
1.) Looting an ancestral tomb for a particular artifact (Dunmer artifacts are all the rage with the OE rich these days).
2.) Convincing a ship captain to smuggle a hot guild operative out of the province. Player would have to go to the docks and find a captain willing to cooperate, then bribe/speechcraft his/her pants off.
3.) Mending relations with crimelord Otrebus Delagia. He's too ambitious, and the city guard is getting nervous (bad for the status quo). The player must convince him to pay some guild dues and limit his operations (Tone down violence against locals, stop stealing from OE's well-to-do area). If the player fails to convince him, instead:
4.) The player must steal Otrebus' loan paperwork and a selection of his riches. The paperwork will be destroyed; the riches will be dumped in the OE slums.
5.) With local troubles sorted out, the OE branch can move on to grander schemes. Whatever those are.
It should be impossible for newbies to join the OE branch in a straightforward fashion. It would be best to join up elsewhere and build credential, but I propose that there be an alternative introduction into the guild: through local loanshark/crimelord Otrebus Delagia.
Thieves not associated with the guild will be nudged towards Otrebus for work. Current guild members will be unable to join his small crew. He will have a small questline involving:
1.) Collecting loan payments from slum residents and/or shops.
2.) Stealing a fine sword/shield (for Otrebus' use) from some local rich folks.
3.) A final quest that has two choices. Either the player gets an intro into the Thieves' guild (earning Otrebus' scorn), or does something that spoils the OE branch's disposition towards the player (player would have to work harder to gain trust with the OE branch).
Once in the guild, quests will include (very incomplete):
1.) Looting an ancestral tomb for a particular artifact (Dunmer artifacts are all the rage with the OE rich these days).
2.) Convincing a ship captain to smuggle a hot guild operative out of the province. Player would have to go to the docks and find a captain willing to cooperate, then bribe/speechcraft his/her pants off.
3.) Mending relations with crimelord Otrebus Delagia. He's too ambitious, and the city guard is getting nervous (bad for the status quo). The player must convince him to pay some guild dues and limit his operations (Tone down violence against locals, stop stealing from OE's well-to-do area). If the player fails to convince him, instead:
4.) The player must steal Otrebus' loan paperwork and a selection of his riches. The paperwork will be destroyed; the riches will be dumped in the OE slums.
5.) With local troubles sorted out, the OE branch can move on to grander schemes. Whatever those are.
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Tondollari
- Developer
- Posts: 219
- Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:42 pm
- Location: Louisiana
Quest idea: All That Doesn't Glitter
A wealthy IAS member/supporter is in town. The thieves guild would like to try out a con on him.
The player is given a single Dwemer coin for the mission, and written instructions on where to go and what to expect.
The player approaches the Imperial on the city streets, and strikes up a conversation, perhaps posing as a visitor asking for directions. The conversation is interrupted by two Imperial guards chasing a Thieves Guild member. While being chased, the guild member drops a sack of coins near the player. The player "notices", and snatches it up, opening it in front of the mark and revealing a bunch of pewter-colored coins (actually 30-50 painted Septims). The player pretends to take one out, but actually palms the Dwemer coin that the guild provided.
The player pretends not to know what the coin is, claiming it must be bogus money or something. It's certainly not gold. The IAS member, though, can tell that it's of Dwemer make.
The player insists on turning the sack into the guard, but the Imperial says not to. These coins are too valuable, he says.
"Well, how much are they worth to you?", asks the player. The Imperial offers less than half the coins' perceived worth, but the player can haggle for more. In the end, the Imperial leaves with about 30 painted Septims, and the player leaves with 500-800 drakes and keeps the Dwemer coin. The guild gets a cut of the money.
Portions of this quest will likely have Speechcraft/Mercantile/Personality checks. Also, for the sleight of hand, possibly Agility/Sneak checks. The "theatrics" of the two guards and the guild member might be tricky to script and easy to break, so simpler alternatives to this scene would be helpful.
A wealthy IAS member/supporter is in town. The thieves guild would like to try out a con on him.
The player is given a single Dwemer coin for the mission, and written instructions on where to go and what to expect.
The player approaches the Imperial on the city streets, and strikes up a conversation, perhaps posing as a visitor asking for directions. The conversation is interrupted by two Imperial guards chasing a Thieves Guild member. While being chased, the guild member drops a sack of coins near the player. The player "notices", and snatches it up, opening it in front of the mark and revealing a bunch of pewter-colored coins (actually 30-50 painted Septims). The player pretends to take one out, but actually palms the Dwemer coin that the guild provided.
The player pretends not to know what the coin is, claiming it must be bogus money or something. It's certainly not gold. The IAS member, though, can tell that it's of Dwemer make.
The player insists on turning the sack into the guard, but the Imperial says not to. These coins are too valuable, he says.
"Well, how much are they worth to you?", asks the player. The Imperial offers less than half the coins' perceived worth, but the player can haggle for more. In the end, the Imperial leaves with about 30 painted Septims, and the player leaves with 500-800 drakes and keeps the Dwemer coin. The guild gets a cut of the money.
Portions of this quest will likely have Speechcraft/Mercantile/Personality checks. Also, for the sleight of hand, possibly Agility/Sneak checks. The "theatrics" of the two guards and the guild member might be tricky to script and easy to break, so simpler alternatives to this scene would be helpful.