Discussion about TR assets.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:12 pm

Hello, just wanted to address some concerns or ideas about new ingredients in TR. When playing around the alpha and major release there were a few things I noticed I just wanted to bring up.

First of all,I just wanted to know why there are cookies in elder scrolls. Cookies seem like a modern type of baked goods, I don't really see Morrowind having cookies around the place. Cyrodill doesn't even have them which would be a more believable place than Morrowind. I was just thinking, why not replace them with sweet-rolls, it would make it fit more into the newer games and makes it more believable. Petty topic I know, but funny enough something as small as a cookie actually broke immersion. It is something I just cannot see being in the elder scrolls universe.

Another thing is nightshade and Rock Crystal and the Silver Sabre. Are there new models in the works for these? They just seem a bit "moddy" the way they are.

I was also thinking about including new items. One was the Nirnroot, they grow by any water anywhere in Nirn. I am aware of a mod that adds them to the bitter-coast, but that leaves the Mainland empty of Nirnroots. Also with all these new ingredients added to TR, would it be possible to add them to the random loots/level list? So it would seamlessly fit into Solsthiem and Vvardenfell? I know that you don't want to edit anything of the vanilla Morrowind, but this is just something that both vanilla and TR shares is containers and loot, everything seems very separated at the moment.

EJRS · Post by **EJRS** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:35 pm

Small as it might seem, the cookies and the scrib pies have been bigtime immersion-breakers for me as well.

I would love to see them replaced/removed.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Sat May 03, 2014 5:53 pm

They do not fit in all that well; but the problem is that they have already been used so many times in the game. It would be very difficult to remove and replace them.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:08 pm

Not a problem, just replace them with something else. Keep the ID name and just add a new model to it and call it something else.

For Example:

ID: TRCookie
Name: Sweetroll
Mesh: Sweetroll.Nif
Icon: Sweetroll.tga

Something like that. Then you don't have to locate them all and remove them.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:09 pm

I don't really understand the problem with cookies. There's nothing about them that is modern in terms of ingredients. I would also remind you that Morrowind features robots.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:18 pm

gro-Dhal wrote:I don't really understand the problem with cookies. There's nothing about them that is modern in terms of ingredients. I would also remind you that Morrowind features robots.

Cookies don't belong in TES. Think about it. I don't know about you but they break immersion as soon as you find one, then you keep finding them and it gets pretty annoying. Like I said, they seem "moddy". They don't fit in well at all. If they are to be kept, at least rename them to something proper like biscuit and make it look more like one, cookie seems very...........american. Do the Indoril own chips ahoy or something?

Edit: Elder Scrolls features Robots, not just Morrowind. No cookies in any of the games :p. Also the Dwemer are geniuses.
Not a very good comparison I'm afraid.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:19 pm

Adding a new model could make the new object bleed or float, depending on whether the object would be larger or smaller than the original. In the end we would still have to go into the CS and check everything. Also, I do kinda like the idea of scrib pie.

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:24 pm

Scrib Pie is acceptable, because it links to well....scribs. But cookies? Really?

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:33 pm

I suppose we could eventually change the name to 'biscuit', or something like that. But I doubt the model will ever change. Don't think I am all against the idea, I just don't know if it will ever happen, or if it is really necessary.

Post by **rot** » Sat May 03, 2014 6:35 pm

Immersion issue arises from the association with modern (=familiar) aesthetics. TES having robots is irrelevant because they are not aesthetically modern (or rather, as little as they can be) and come from a different culture

Doesn't matter how long it's existed IRL, "cookie" is an inherently cutesy name, and extremely banal. There's a reason why Morrowind doesn't have chocolate, apples and oranges.

(edit- also not bothered by "pie", but with the USA's delusions concerning it, wouldn't be surprised if americans found it too reminiscent of the current-day world :p)

EJRS · Post by **EJRS** » Sat May 03, 2014 7:06 pm

I'd be entirely fine with them if they were renamed "biscuit" or "rusk", it's just...well, what Rot said, basically.

As for the scrib pie, it's not the inclusions of pies that I'm objecting to, it's actually more the "scrib" part of it. Making a pie out of whatever part of a scrib seems like an odd mashup of dunmer and non-dunmer culture that, to me, doesn't fit in at all with the rest of the ingame food items.

Telvayn · Post by **Telvayn** » Sat May 03, 2014 7:12 pm

EJRS wrote:Making a pie out of whatever part of a scrib seems like an odd mashup of dunmer and non-dunmer culture that, to me, doesn't fit in at all with the rest of the ingame food items.

Seeing how Redoran Cooking Secrets give you a recipe for a pie made from several regional ingredients (saltrice, kwama eggs, scuttle, hound and rat meat), I don't really think there is a problem here.

Ironed Maidens · Post by **Ironed Maidens** » Sat May 03, 2014 9:43 pm

Why not rename the cookie to be something like Dunmeri Cake and keep the same model, just retexture it to look like a weird brownish type of pastry, that way there's no threat of any of the models bleeding and it makes it a little more immersive?

Scrib pie is ok because I can see a meat pie being more doable in the region of Morrowind. Like a chicken pot pie, only a lot more stringy and less nutritional (which idek if pot pies irl are all that good for you anyway...heh)

What I would like to know about is more types of regional exports. We already have the conceptual idea of Dres honey farms, but what about Indoril smoked meats or Reoran hide clothing, etc etc?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 03, 2014 11:21 pm

I'm very dubious of pies and cookies as a native food, but as a Western food they seem quite reasonable to me.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun May 18, 2014 2:30 am

[url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Choc-Chip-Cookie.jpg]This is a cookie[/url].

[url=http://media.chick-fil-a.com/Media/Img/catalog/Food/XLarge/Biscuit.png]This is a biscuit[/url].

We would be introducing errors if we renamed our cookies to biscuits; it would be the opposite of "renaming it something proper". Since Morrowind was made by an American studio and TR follows related schema as a result (such as US spelling), we also follow the US definitions of the words.

I also think there's nothing wrong with cookies in The Elder Scrolls. Rot: Morrowind could easily import apples/oranges/chocolate/etc. from other provinces. Apples are commonplace just across the mountain range in Cyrodiil, after all. There's no reason a small supply of cookies or ingredients for cookies couldn't also be imported for Imperial citizens who miss the delicacy.

Post by **rot** » Sun May 18, 2014 6:38 am

Yeah I'm sure there are tons of thoroughly unexotic things you can find in-character excuses for having as imports and that Morrowind's developers aren't including with good reason - and the exact definition of what's put in pastry in a fantasy world really seems like it should be the least of our worries -
but that's all besides the point because we're not debating the ES universe. "cookie"s are of course used everywhere in TR, which means almost always 100% dunmer ints. Ash yam deshaan bread scuttle cookies scrib jerky, how could that possibly feel out of place...

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:28 am

Would like to point out that of course the mainland is going to have more instances of Western food since it's more influenced by the Empire and the rest of Tamriel than Vvardenfell ever was.

Xenophobia aside, I'm sure dark elves like cookies, and love chocolate. I'm sure any lack of western sweets is due to the little exposure they have with the native population.

Dark elves didn't invent death and grumpiness and slaves, but they sure as hell took to them well enough. Why not cookies too!

EJRS · Post by **EJRS** » Wed May 21, 2014 8:00 am

But really, it is not a question of what would be possible for them to have. After all, they could have pizzas and christmas trees with the same reasoning. It is about establishing identity.

There is no way we can muster the resources to create a world in which every minute aspect of it is portrayed: every exception, every possibility. Thus we ought to focus mainly on things that are representative of the cultures we are trying to portray. While the odd cookie could be OK, they are rather ubiquitous. When creating fiction, you are always in some way limited to rather broad strokes.

My suggestion would be to replace the cookie with another, more dunmerish item, using the same model but a different texture. For instance, whatever happened to muck "properly prepared in the native manner"? Doesn't that sound like something that could be rather similar to tempeh?

Oh, and another thing I've been thinking about: those rugs. You know the one with the cobalt tone? Shouldn't that really be a bit more towards ultramarine?

tkl7 · Post by **tkl7** » Fri May 23, 2014 5:12 pm

Never bothered me.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:35 pm

After reading all the posts, I now believe that everything should be kept as-is. For one, I now think that cookies would fit right in. Mainland Morrowind is bordered with Cyrodiil, a province that surely has more 'modernized' food than any other province. Don't you think that some of these foods (such as cookies) would make it to Morrowind? Also, I have fiddled around with the TR rugs a bit, and some of them do seem a little weird. But I don't see a good reason to change or get rid of them.

Dormichigan64 · Post by **Dormichigan64** » Fri May 23, 2014 7:49 pm

To me, cookies coming from Cyrodiil would make the most sense, however I still do not like the idea. The Imperials are based off of the Romans, thus Cyrodiil was based off of Rome. Aside from North America, everywhere else (in Europe at least) they call cookies biscuits. Plus, the modern cookies were not very common until only the 18th century. And the Elder Scrolls is set way before that.

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Fri May 23, 2014 8:24 pm

I don't think the Imperials are being based off of the Romans. Also, remember, this is a new world, in a new universe. Cookies could have easily been invented in Tamriel during a time period before they were invented here. And as a last reminder, remember that Morrowind is an American game, and we are following in its footsteps.

gro-Dhal · Post by **gro-Dhal** » Fri May 23, 2014 9:32 pm

Dormichigan64 wrote:Aside from North America, everywhere else (in Europe at least) they call cookies biscuits. Plus, the modern cookies were not very common until only the 18th century. And the Elder Scrolls is set way before that.

The British and Irish may do, but the Dutch call a biscuit a koekje, which is where the work cookie comes from.

And Cyrodiil is not Rome, nor is it a mirror of any given period of real world history. Put such thoughts from your mind and you'll enjoy worldbuilding all the more.

PS this conversation is mental and should be archived as soon as people are done with it

RyanS · Post by **RyanS** » Fri May 23, 2014 9:40 pm

I think it's safe to say that this conversation should end. If no one agrees with the main point anymore, this topic will not lead to anything.

greendogo · Post by **greendogo** » Fri May 23, 2014 10:53 pm

We've only really talked about the cookies bit of the OP's query. Here's the rest:

Cicero wrote:Another thing is nightshade and Rock Crystal and the Silver Sabre. Are there new models in the works for these? They just seem a bit "moddy" the way they are.

I was also thinking about including new items. One was the Nirnroot, they grow by any water anywhere in Nirn. I am aware of a mod that adds them to the bitter-coast, but that leaves the Mainland empty of Nirnroots. Also with all these new ingredients added to TR, would it be possible to add them to the random loots/level list? So it would seamlessly fit into Solsthiem and Vvardenfell? I know that you don't want to edit anything of the vanilla Morrowind, but this is just something that both vanilla and TR shares is containers and loot, everything seems very separated at the moment.

I don't have anything to say about the models.

On the topic of the leveled lists, TR has it's own leveled lists so as not to alter Vanilla's (right?).

I also believe there are Nirnroot mods out there for TR. I've never heard any real talk about Nirnroot here at TR, so I don't think they're thinking of putting them in officially. Though a fairly good excuse as to why they (might) grow in Mainland Morrowind, but don't grow on Vvardenfell could be because of either Red Mountain or because of the separation of Vvardenfell from the mainland since maybe Nirnroot depends on an enormous underground network of roots to grow? I don't know the Lore behind them.

Maybe Sload or someone would know more about the significance of Nirnroot on Tamriel?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 24, 2014 12:37 am

Nirnroot is some of out-of-pocket TESIV shit. I have no interest in including it.

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Discussion about TR assets.

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