Returning to TR after a break things have moved on. I have a couple of observations although I have only just begun to look at the new areas.
From your last general posts it seems you are considering making cosmetic changes to some areas already issued. Making the game consistent is an excellent objective but I'd like to fire a warning shot. From past experience with being involved in long term projects (in the commercial world) there are frequent changes of personnel. New people have new skills and different opinions and time can be wasted in making changes that later have get changed again. (New technology, new skills, different priorities or ideologies all play a part in this.) It might therefore be better to keep a list of those areas you want to improve but wait to make the changes until the whole mod is almost complete and there is less chance of the 'final' view changing.
There are already unfinished quest lines and probably unstarted quest lines on your to-do list so adding 'cosmetic' improvements is no great difficulty I would have thought.
Having said that, if there are spare resources available there is one aspect that could be looked at earlier. I have said before that there are rather too many pointless dungeons particularly IIRC in the northern part of what was map 1. I made a couple of suggestions in the past and was roundly shot down but I repeat them here as they could help solve the problem.
First it is beyond belief that the Dark Brotherhood found all over Vvardenfell is completely absent from the rest of the province. (You are possibly even intending to remove them from Mournhold.) Having them trying to establish a sanctuary, or having established one trying to expand it, could give some use to a couple of the surplus dungeons. I am not suggesting the DB is made a playable faction just that it's representatives need to be in the mod. They were at least by implication in the original game in Pelagiad, Vivec, Sadrith Mora, Ald Ruhn and Khuul to name the ones I can recall off-hand. They should be on the mainland too.
The other is to date the absence of the Camonna Tong. They are referred to as 'The native thieves guild of Morrowind' (not 'of Vvardenfell'). Although most associated with House Hlaalu they have a significant presence in Sadrith Mora. As with the DB they could use a couple of 'spare dungeons' and provide a foe for the Thieves Guild or any law and order type faction.
There are also a few cases where it seems that a quest was originally intended but never implemented. It's over two years since I last played that region and my memory is a bit hazy. If it would help I can try to find the locations in the CS but maybe these vague clues will help.
1. A Dwemer Ruin (map 2) where you are met on entry by an NPC warning you not to go further as his three friends have not returned. You can find their corpses but not report it to the NPC. Shouldn't be hard to make that a quest.
2. A small island of the east coast with a farm and a cave beginning I think with a P that has a strange red glowing cavern at the centre. Someone is said to be missing from the farm's household but no quest is there.
3. Kemel-Ze. This is AFAIK the biggest dungeon in the game and serves almost no purpose. There are three Keys of Lizgat in the game. Making finding them a quest for the woman who runs the Archaelogical expedition shouldn't be difficult. Three zones, complete and linked to each other, are only accessible by using the console. They are among the most interesting and one of the keys is there so they would need to be made accessible. This only means putting a door in. This would take very little time and give exploration of this enormous ruin some value.
On the newest areas I cannot say much as I have only just started exploring them and they are in any case not finished. As ever they are beautifully designed (many thanks TR team). I noticed the following small points. The quest in Fort Ancylis requires you to swim down to discover a Nordic Axe. In my game you cannot pick up the axe. I added via the console and completed the quest. Ref TR_w_m4_q_AncylisAxe. In the Dwemer ruin of Bthungtch the bandit leader's journal refers to him finding a key to lock the lower levels. I could not find the key, should it not be on him? Also it says he took a peek and saw dwemer sphere centurions. There are no sphere centurions in the zone. Either such should be added or the journal changed to read 'spiders' which are present. In the cave Zeddan there is a silver slave key. It opens the gate to the slaves but does not unlock their bracers. No other key is available that I could find so I assume it is an error.
Last in the Scout's guide to Teyn there is a ref to Fort Firemoth 'only a mile of the shore' should be either 'off' shore or within a mile of the shore. Minor point.
My two cents worth at a very early stage.
A few thoughts
Moderators: Haplo, Lead Developers
A few thoughts
I hate a yes-man, don't you?
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Dormichigan64
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You know that public releases don't have to completed, right? Also Dark Brotherhood is only active on the mainland, not vvardenfell. I actually opened a discussion about that not too long ago.
"When life gives you lemonade, make lemons. And life will be all like 'what??'" - Phil Dunphy's Phil's-osophy
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sasquatch2o
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Hi Malchik, some of these errors you noted belong on one of the threads here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewforum.php?f=205
I can't speak for the Dark Brotherhood (because they're craptacular compared with glorious Morag Tong), but the Camonna Tong has a role in the Hlaalu storyline, it hasn't been forgotten.
Some things were created before we had a plan, and those things need altering in some cases in order to fit. The biggest stuff (ie a comprehensive redo of Telvannis) will be saved until the end as you said.
I can't speak for the Dark Brotherhood (because they're craptacular compared with glorious Morag Tong), but the Camonna Tong has a role in the Hlaalu storyline, it hasn't been forgotten.
Some things were created before we had a plan, and those things need altering in some cases in order to fit. The biggest stuff (ie a comprehensive redo of Telvannis) will be saved until the end as you said.
Test
Further
I hope I did not imply that any decisions taken so far have been irrational. But what seemed right 10 years ago may not fit now. As the mod has a good few more years to go the same risk applies. And yes I am stating the bleeding obvious but in the years I have been exchanging posts with the TR team they have always been exceptionally enthusiastic (fantastic and long may it be so). From personal experience I won't bore you with I am aware that enthusiasm can blind one to the bleeding obvious and it doesn't hurt to say it occasionally.
To get back to the Dark Brotherhood (Oh no - he's off again). I'm no great fan of assassins (DB or MT) but when the mod was started the idea was to stick as closely as possible to the ethos of the original game. From recent posts I get the impression that this has been relaxed of late. Whatever, the DB was essential to the MT quest line. Yes, there were the writs. But, if one is honest, they were pretty bloody boring. The interest came from the 'special duties' which were all to do with the DB (or by implication supporters of the DB who worshipped Mehrunes Dagon).
If the MT is to become a playable faction in TR, and that was certainly the intention IIRC, has any thought been given as to what they will be dealing with beyond the writs? If the TR team is firmly against using the DB as their 'enemy' perhaps instead the assassinations could be made more challenging? Maybe a few of the ideas from the (I hate to say it) DB quests in Oblivion could be incorporated - having to sneak past lots of people, not killing fierce guard dogs, having to make it look like an accident etc. Even making the target difficult to reach (cf Assassin's Creed not a game I like much but relevant to this post) in the middle of a maze or able to teleport away could replace the need for the 'special duties'.
Just a few thoughts.
To get back to the Dark Brotherhood (Oh no - he's off again). I'm no great fan of assassins (DB or MT) but when the mod was started the idea was to stick as closely as possible to the ethos of the original game. From recent posts I get the impression that this has been relaxed of late. Whatever, the DB was essential to the MT quest line. Yes, there were the writs. But, if one is honest, they were pretty bloody boring. The interest came from the 'special duties' which were all to do with the DB (or by implication supporters of the DB who worshipped Mehrunes Dagon).
If the MT is to become a playable faction in TR, and that was certainly the intention IIRC, has any thought been given as to what they will be dealing with beyond the writs? If the TR team is firmly against using the DB as their 'enemy' perhaps instead the assassinations could be made more challenging? Maybe a few of the ideas from the (I hate to say it) DB quests in Oblivion could be incorporated - having to sneak past lots of people, not killing fierce guard dogs, having to make it look like an accident etc. Even making the target difficult to reach (cf Assassin's Creed not a game I like much but relevant to this post) in the middle of a maze or able to teleport away could replace the need for the 'special duties'.
Just a few thoughts.
I hate a yes-man, don't you?
While your concern is valid, and has certainly applied to TR in the past, in this case the work being redone is from before a major adjustment to the project's structure. Before that adjustment, TR did not document its plans, and those plans shifted over time, leading to a rather inconsistent product in which many aspects, such as gameplay, were not adequately attended to, and in which -- as you observe -- the project sometimes ground to a halt to redo earlier work.
The project restructure largely came about to avoid that sort of thing in future, but it is natural that, now that we have consistent and documented plans for various aspects of the mod, earlier work which was carried out without such consistent planning needs to be updated to meet the new standards.
To that end we will need to reevaluate pretty much all of the work that has already been done, and make a final round of adjustments to all of our earlier work, with some places requiring more radical changes than others. We are not doing this all at once though, and are, as gro-Dhal said, leaving the biggest stuff for last.
The lack of Camonna Tong and Dark Brotherhood content is directly related to that. They are simply not as high priority as other factions, such as House Hlaalu and House Indoril, which we are looking at first. As such, we have not yet gotten around to making documents for them, though there has already been quite a lot of discussion of the Camonna Tong in relation to House Hlaalu.
I would certainly advocate having a Dark Brotherhood presence on the mainland. In fact, at least in places, I think that presence should be larger than on Vvardenfell. However, the Dark Brotherhood (especially in Morrowind), Camonna Tong and -- I might add -- Blades are all factions that keep a rather low profile.
As such -- though the Camonna Tong will probably need a document sooner rather than later as it is closely tied to House Hlaalu -- there is no real pressure to sort out those factions before doing exterior and interior work, as there is with the Great Houses. They can really be added in at any time.
The project restructure largely came about to avoid that sort of thing in future, but it is natural that, now that we have consistent and documented plans for various aspects of the mod, earlier work which was carried out without such consistent planning needs to be updated to meet the new standards.
To that end we will need to reevaluate pretty much all of the work that has already been done, and make a final round of adjustments to all of our earlier work, with some places requiring more radical changes than others. We are not doing this all at once though, and are, as gro-Dhal said, leaving the biggest stuff for last.
The lack of Camonna Tong and Dark Brotherhood content is directly related to that. They are simply not as high priority as other factions, such as House Hlaalu and House Indoril, which we are looking at first. As such, we have not yet gotten around to making documents for them, though there has already been quite a lot of discussion of the Camonna Tong in relation to House Hlaalu.
I would certainly advocate having a Dark Brotherhood presence on the mainland. In fact, at least in places, I think that presence should be larger than on Vvardenfell. However, the Dark Brotherhood (especially in Morrowind), Camonna Tong and -- I might add -- Blades are all factions that keep a rather low profile.
As such -- though the Camonna Tong will probably need a document sooner rather than later as it is closely tied to House Hlaalu -- there is no real pressure to sort out those factions before doing exterior and interior work, as there is with the Great Houses. They can really be added in at any time.
I completely disagree that the minor factions which have a presence/influence on the whole territory can just be added "at any time". That's only ever yielded terrible results (or more often no results at all, since it's so awkward nobody wants to do it)
Tried some discussion on the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24443]morag tong[/url] but no plans yet.
As for the DB I assume there is something deliberate about their association with/harboring of by the Dagon cult in vanilla and Mephala's actions against them as a whole that ties with the oblivion crisis (emperor assassination blah blah blah... or at least I find it more interesting than the mere assassin guild rivalry)
so I imagine they'd still be involved in a global MT story. Doesn't mean going full-blown with DB gear-clad goons on the Mainland, they can remain subtle more like in vanilla ('subtle' as in how thankfully the DB uniform didn't exist before tribunal)
Tried some discussion on the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24443]morag tong[/url] but no plans yet.
As for the DB I assume there is something deliberate about their association with/harboring of by the Dagon cult in vanilla and Mephala's actions against them as a whole that ties with the oblivion crisis (emperor assassination blah blah blah... or at least I find it more interesting than the mere assassin guild rivalry)
so I imagine they'd still be involved in a global MT story. Doesn't mean going full-blown with DB gear-clad goons on the Mainland, they can remain subtle more like in vanilla ('subtle' as in how thankfully the DB uniform didn't exist before tribunal)
I did state that rather poorly. Morag Tong naturally has guildhalls, and these should be planned beforehand. However, I do not think we need to hurry too much on planning out Morag Tong quests, and random operatives located outside of the guildhalls can be placed at any time, naturally in accordance with whatever plans we end up making for the Morag Tong.
In the case of the Camonna Tong and Dark Brotherhood, things are a little different. A lot of CT NPCs would probably frequent similar locations as Hlaalu NPCs, and would otherwise be located either in public establishments or smuggler caves. While the establishments owned by the CT should be designed around that idea, that doesn't change the fact that, by and large, CT members would probably be in locations which do not need to be innately recognizable as CT establishments; for example we might decide a random smuggler cave should be a CT base, and making the change would likely only really require making the NPCs non-hostile (maybe), making sure none of them are non-Dunmer (probably) and giving them a Camonna Tong faction association and some new dialogue.
The Dark Brotherhood are another question. In vanilla Morrowind, they are either scattered NPCs or located in dungeons, if I remember correctly. I doubt they would have guildhalls, though it is possible that they would have some sort of presence in certain Hlaalu and Imperial settlements, as well as Mournhold.
If we intend for them to have guildhalls, we would naturally need to plan that out. My assumption was that they would not have recognizable guildhalls, as was the case with Vvardenfell, which is why I included them among the factions that did not really require prior interior planning. I now see that I probably spoke too soon on that note, though.
As for the Blades, I've already mentioned that I think we should specifically avoid designating interiors as Blades hideouts or anything similar, as on Vvardenfell Blades operatives are all seemingly random NPCs in innocuous houses with no real indication outside of dialogue that they are Blades members.
As with all of the above factions, though -- and I was by no means trying to indicate otherwise -- we should naturally make proper plans before placing the NPCs or making the quests.
In the case of the Camonna Tong and Dark Brotherhood, things are a little different. A lot of CT NPCs would probably frequent similar locations as Hlaalu NPCs, and would otherwise be located either in public establishments or smuggler caves. While the establishments owned by the CT should be designed around that idea, that doesn't change the fact that, by and large, CT members would probably be in locations which do not need to be innately recognizable as CT establishments; for example we might decide a random smuggler cave should be a CT base, and making the change would likely only really require making the NPCs non-hostile (maybe), making sure none of them are non-Dunmer (probably) and giving them a Camonna Tong faction association and some new dialogue.
The Dark Brotherhood are another question. In vanilla Morrowind, they are either scattered NPCs or located in dungeons, if I remember correctly. I doubt they would have guildhalls, though it is possible that they would have some sort of presence in certain Hlaalu and Imperial settlements, as well as Mournhold.
If we intend for them to have guildhalls, we would naturally need to plan that out. My assumption was that they would not have recognizable guildhalls, as was the case with Vvardenfell, which is why I included them among the factions that did not really require prior interior planning. I now see that I probably spoke too soon on that note, though.
As for the Blades, I've already mentioned that I think we should specifically avoid designating interiors as Blades hideouts or anything similar, as on Vvardenfell Blades operatives are all seemingly random NPCs in innocuous houses with no real indication outside of dialogue that they are Blades members.
As with all of the above factions, though -- and I was by no means trying to indicate otherwise -- we should naturally make proper plans before placing the NPCs or making the quests.
Further
On the basis of the later games (esp info in Skyrim) I would imagine the DB has at least one 'sanctuary' in Morrowind. Maybe no more are needed. The idea of designating a cave as CT or DB later on is what I meant by finding a use for some of the empty dungeons.
The reason I seem to bang on about it was the reply I received, several years ago now, that there would be NO DB presence in Morrowind.
I'll shut up now.
The reason I seem to bang on about it was the reply I received, several years ago now, that there would be NO DB presence in Morrowind.
I'll shut up now.
I hate a yes-man, don't you?
There's no real pressure for you to shut up, you know. 
As for being told that there would be no DB presence, that doesn't really surprise me. The question of vampirism amongst high-ranking Dres nobles springs to mind, where at different stages of the project you'd either hear that the Dres council is full of vampires or there are absolutely no vampires in the council and never were. I have no idea how we will decide to handle the Dark Brotherhood -- for all I know we might decide to leave them out entirely, though that would very much surprise me -- but at least when we get around to tackling that question again we'll actually be able to provide a definitive answer.
As for being told that there would be no DB presence, that doesn't really surprise me. The question of vampirism amongst high-ranking Dres nobles springs to mind, where at different stages of the project you'd either hear that the Dres council is full of vampires or there are absolutely no vampires in the council and never were. I have no idea how we will decide to handle the Dark Brotherhood -- for all I know we might decide to leave them out entirely, though that would very much surprise me -- but at least when we get around to tackling that question again we'll actually be able to provide a definitive answer.