Indoril and Dres tapestries

[otaku4242]

If you look at the tapestries in the vanilla game you'll notice that house Hlaalu, Telvanni, and Redoran have their own symbols on tapestries.

However, Dres and Indoril do not have one! Jobashi and I came up ideas for what the Indoril and Dres tapestries could be, if someone could make the textures or meshes or whatever and they could be implimented.

Vanilla Tapestries: http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Great_Houses#Current_Great_Houses

Possible Dres Tapestry: http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131130215535/elderscrolls/images/6/67/House_Banner_Dres.png

Possible Indoril Tapestry: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/elderscrolls/images/b/bf/Indoril_Shield_MW.png

Thank you and have a nice day~

[Gnomey]

We do actually already have symbols for both Houses, though I'm not completely satisfied with either. The Dres symbol is a Skyrender in profile, while the Indoril symbol is a bug with extended wings.

I'm not at all a fan of TESO's symbol for Dres. Dres aren't obsessed with their slaves; the flag of antebellum America wasn't chains either. Outsiders might view Dres as little more than xenophobic slaveholders, but the Dres certainly wouldn't see themselves that way.
As for the symbol on the Indoril shield, I'm pretty sure that's a Tribunal symbol. The Daedric letters in each corner are Ayem Seht and Vehk, in other words the Tribunal.

[otaku4242]

We do actually already have symbols for both Houses, though I'm not completely satisfied with either. The Dres symbol is a Skyrender in profile, while the Indoril symbol is a bug with extended wings.

I'm not at all a fan of TESO's symbol for Dres. Dres aren't obsessed with their slaves; the flag of antebellum America wasn't chains either. Outsiders might view Dres as little more than xenophobic slaveholders, but the Dres certainly wouldn't see themselves that way.
As for the symbol on the Indoril shield, I'm pretty sure that's a Tribunal symbol. The Daedric letters in each corner are Ayem Seht and Vehk, in other words the Tribunal.

So what are they symbols for Dres and Indoril in TR? I am unable to run Morrowind for various reasons. Going to need to wait until I have a laptop that doesnt suck ass

[Rats]

Here be pictures, linkity-link:

[url]http://images.uesp.net/1/18/TR3-banner-House_Indoril.png[/url]

[url]http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/Tony545/townbanner05copy.jpg[/url]

I sort of like the Indoril one with its open wings depicting the house as being higher than the rest, though the beetle iconography of the Great Houses may become a bit too repetitive. Another possibility could be the face of Nerevar as proposed by [url=http://www.gamesas.com/pentannual-census-the-houses-morrowind-post-red-year-t174046.html]this nice text[/url], or something with a moon and a star. Though we'd have to be careful not to make it too Temple-y.

The Dres one is the end result of a design competition which iirc had only one participant. I think it probably should be reconsidered. I'm not sure why the Dres would've chosen to elevate the skyrender as their banner when they could have a stylized version of an ancestral ghost for example.

[otaku4242]

Here be pictures, linkity-link:

[url]http://images.uesp.net/1/18/TR3-banner-House_Indoril.png[/url]

[url]http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/Tony545/townbanner05copy.jpg[/url]

I sort of like the Indoril one with its open wings depicting the house as being higher than the rest, though the beetle iconography of the Great Houses may become a bit too repetitive. Another possibility could be the face of Nerevar as proposed by [url=http://www.gamesas.com/pentannual-census-the-houses-morrowind-post-red-year-t174046.html]this nice text[/url], or something with a moon and a star. Though we'd have to be careful not to make it too Temple-y.

The Dres one is the end result of a design competition which iirc had only one participant. I think it probably should be reconsidered. I'm not sure why the Dres would've chosen to elevate the skyrender as their banner when they could have a stylized version of an ancestral ghost for example.

why specifically a beetle/bug for Indoril though? They're known for heir religion so......why a bug?

[klep]

When I added some Indoril info to [url=http://uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/Great_House_Indoril]its UESP page[/url] I also uploaded their banner.

Only after writing the above I figured that Rats had already posted it.

To still add to the discussion I want to point out that the bug and specifically its spread wings refer to parts of [url=http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Poison_Song]Poison Song[/url].

[Gnomey]

Yeah, the wings are a reference to Poison Song, but I don't like that four of the six Houses currently have bugs as their symbol. The Dres Skyrender is at least fairly distinct from the others in shape; the Indoril bug not so much. I'd prefer if the symbol for House Indoril were a single stylized bug-wing, or something to that effect, though I don't think we should get rid of the current symbol either, as it looks nice. It just shouldn't be the official symbol of the House.
I'd also somewhat prefer a non-bug symbol for House Dres, and a few ideas have been tossed around in the past, but I think we can probably leave it 'till we have properly planned out the House, by which time good ideas shouldn't be too hard to come by. The Skyrender banner works very well as a placeholder, and can probably find some other use as well if it eventually gets replaced as House symbol.

[otaku4242]

Yeah, the wings are a reference to Poison Song, but I don't like that four of the six Houses currently have bugs as their symbol. The Dres Skyrender is at least fairly distinct from the others in shape; the Indoril bug not so much. I'd prefer if the symbol for House Indoril were a single stylized bug-wing, or something to that effect, though I don't think we should get rid of the current symbol either, as it looks nice. It just shouldn't be the official symbol of the House.
I'd also somewhat prefer a non-bug symbol for House Dres, and a few ideas have been tossed around in the past, but I think we can probably leave it 'till we have properly planned out the House, by which time good ideas shouldn't be too hard to come by. The Skyrender banner works very well as a placeholder, and can probably find some other use as well if it eventually gets replaced as House symbol.

allright.
also, do you know if any other minor houses will be included?
Perhaps house Sadras is shown, since it does replace house Hlaalu on the Grand Council some time in the early 4th Era.

http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Sadras

[klep]

I personally don't imagine Sadras as an existing "House" in pre-red year Morrowind. Rather a secretive group of Dunmer already part of a Great House/several Great Houses (I'm thinking Hlaalu) who want things done differently. They may make for an interesting quest line. It depends much on what was decided for House Hlaalu in the Skype meeting a few months back.

[EJRS]

Remember, there is a difference between great house and house. Telvanni, Dres, Hlaalu, Redoran and Indoril are the great houses, but within their structure there are numerous houses, such as the Dren and Sarethi families. Sadras could easily be included as an upstart family within one of the great houses, as an easter egg if nothing else.

[Gnomey]

There are no plans for independent minor Houses at the moment, if that's what you meant. There was the idea that minor Houses in Dres lands have kept a greater degree of independence than in other lands, though, and would generally use their own banners in favour of the Dres banner.

[EJRS]

Suggestion on Dres motifs: crops. Dres are supposed to be responsible for the majority of the food production of the province. The slaves, which a lot of people seem to get stuck on, are merely workers required for the vast (and potentially dangerous) plantations of the Morrowind south.

A motif such as a blight moth on a bent stalk of marshmerrow, or a single ear of saltrice (stylized, of course), would make fitting symbols for the House, wether it be for the house as a whole or for the dominating clan of a region. There could even be made a system of banners, where a single pole holds several banners representing different aspects of a prominent family, such as martial achievements, wealth, livestock(this includes slaves, no difference as far as the Dres are concerned) and lineage.

I support the idea of giving the individual clans more prominence within House Dres, both for the sake of the character it lends, as well as the opportunity it gives to explore how clan structures operate within the larger Great House structure.

[st.Veloth, The Repenting]

house dres, shackles of oppression power of tradition, dunmer superiority.


indoril, clams united ordinators temple imagery
(temple and indoril at this point are practically the same thing)

[otaku4242]

There are no plans for independent minor Houses at the moment, if that's what you meant. There was the idea that minor Houses in Dres lands have kept a greater degree of independence than in other lands, though, and would generally use their own banners in favour of the Dres banner.

So Gnomey, what do you personally want the banners of Indoril and Dres to be?

[Gnomey]

As I said, for Indoril a single, stylized bug wing. For Dres, I'm not so sure. However, all of the suggestions so far have been from the lowest level of Dres society; the slaves, the crops. The bottom of the pyramid. To pull another nonsense analogy, cities generally don't have streets as their symbol, or ordinary houses, even though one could easily argue those form the vital basis of every city, and the city would not be a city without them. If anything, cities display their skyline, or the government center, or a monument like the Eiffel Tower.

As we still haven't decided how we'll portray House Dres, I'll use my current image of them as an example to answer your question: let us assume Dres are a -- relative to other Houses -- loose federation of minor Houses that have held on to their individual identities. The House capital is Tear, but it is not necessarily as much a center of government and nobility -- most clans keep to their clansteads -- but rather an extensive market town in which the typically xenophobic Dres do business with anyone and everyone, even the Sload.
The Dres are unscrupulous traders who attempt to bring prosperity and security to Morrowind by any means and at any terms necessary, often striking incredibly unsavoury deals for the greater good. They keep their ancestors close, as well as the good Daedra, which explains their lack of scruples: they have no honour as we understand it, only Realpolitik. They honour their deals and allies only when it would harm them not to do so. They do this, however, not as much out of self-interest, (though that is always an element of it), but as it is their way of serving their gods and ancestors. Remember that their gods and ancestors are not constructs nor dead (as such), but are very much able to judge and influence their worshipers and descendents.

The triangle is a natural symbol for them; real-world implications aside, symbols like the Star of David (so the Tribunal and the good Daedra superimposed) might be worth exploring; though I think a wheel with spokes might be more in line with that sort of Dunmer symbolism.
The upside-down triangle of the Tribunal is, I think, in part intended to not put any one tribune above the others, as the upright triangle would imply, but I may also be reading too much into that.
On the other hand, I'm not sure if I want Dres imagery to be too geometric; I think that's one of my minor quibbles with the current tileset, (which I don't want to get into here, but suffice to say I don't think it's an irreparable issue or anything, and that adding more variety to the current basic tileset will handily fix that issue), when I see Dunmer as traditionally favouring curves and bug-forms.

So long story short: a three- or six-winged Skyrender might be fun; or a wheel with three spokes with a stylized depiction of a Dunmer/ancestor as the hub; or a triangular waiting door with each corner being an ancestor bone: the good Daedra, [url=http://www.imperial-library.info/content/redguard-forum-madness]'Our Stronger, Better Ancestors.'[/url] Those are just off the top of my head, though I sort of like where the last one was going.
If we really want to keep the slavery angle, three bone spears impaling an Argonian head, like so: \!/
Again, those are just ideas.

As a last point, one thing I'd keep in mind is that House symbols should be fairly simple. There is room for fancier imagery and murals; in fact, they're very welcome indeed. But so far we have two scarabs, (though the Redoran one may be a scar-crab if we follow Sload's old idea), a set of scales, the Telvanni gate (I think I used to know what that symbolized, but I'm probably kidding myself. Maybe magic = the sun? No idea), and as above a bug wing for House Indoril.

Edit: I was thinking of making the Indoril wing look like hand, but then realized [url=http://www.avis.ch/avisonline/ch-gb/partners.nsf/Graphics/lufthansa_large.gif/$File/lufthansa_large.gif]it's already been done[/url].

[otaku4242]

I see, well then Gnomey, i wish you the best of luck. If I have any ideas, I'll let you know on IRC ^_^

[klep]

indoril, clams united ordinators temple imagery
(temple and indoril at this point are practically the same thing)

The Indoril - Temple relationship (as read in the [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?p=327874#327874]Indoril Master Planning[/url]) below shows that this is not exactly the case. The differences will most likely be made even clearer once we get a proper concept up for the Temple:

The two are strongly intertwined. The Indoril derive a lot of their legitimacy from
(purported) genealogical ties to saints, scholars and sometimes even Nerevar or the
Triunes themselves.
The Indoril are the Upholders of the Faith, Kin to the Tribunal, who Keep the Law and
Ensure Order. Sentences with capital letters Come Naturally to them. Temple priests
are mostly from Indoril families
Though House Indoril and the Temple are deeply intertwined, they are not the same
thing. House Indoril are theocratic legislators, not monks or preachers. Many members of the Tribunal Temple come from Indoril families, but they are
not members of House Indoril and thus do not keep the prefix ‘Indoril’ to their names.

House Indoril derives their right to rule from the Temple, who derive their rights from
the Tribunal, in a way similar to medieval kings. However, the Temple itself doesn't
have a lot of power, because the Indoril can interpret Temple laws any way they like.
Also, many of the high-ranking people in the Temple are part of House Indoril. This
ruins any attempts at neutrality by the Temple.