I was wondering

Shadow_Ranger · Post by **Shadow_Ranger** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 3:58 am

Well, if you think about it, Morrowind takes place in the time that was about the late 1600's to late 1700's. They had flint lock pistols and rifles back then. You can probobly see where this is going. Would it be a good idea to include these kind of weapons. They could be like a bow or cross bow, but have pistol models. We could even make the shooting time really long, so it could simulate reloading. Also, it would not be a super uber weapon of mass destruction! It would be just slightly more powerful then a good bow or crossbow. Does this sound like a good idea? Maybe you can buy them only in Cyrodil, or Bretonland? Watcha all think?

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:14 am

hmmmm, well, first... I dont think if this was a time in world history it would be 1600 to 1700s that was exploration going on into industrial revolution.... this game seems almost like a tapestry of different ages depending on the race, dwemer being industrial, cyrodil being almost imperial rome, Nords being dark ages, morrowind being basically any time before dark ages, high rock being renaissance maybe

So... thats first
secondly, a gun would be weird in the game... wouldnt sit right however, I could imagine a dwermer construct that might use explosives such as a primitive cannon or somethin(couldnt be carried but maybe could be "used")... but guns, just dont see it

Shadow_Ranger · Post by **Shadow_Ranger** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:53 am

well yeah i could see your point, but since i posted, i was doing some more research, and foun that they were being made from mid 1500's to mid 1800's. Then they were replaced with precussion caps, then bullets. besides, we could give them to the guards, once you hit level 14 i think, they get too easy. so could e have second opinion?

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:01 am

When you already have long-range killer weapons with Magicka, the need to explore other ways to do the same thing is lessened.

Besides, what good are guns in this setting? If they use gunpowder, any mage could cast a fire spell at the thing, and all the ammo would cook off before it could be drawn, let alone fired.

Shadow_Ranger · Post by **Shadow_Ranger** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:08 am

i was thinking more a option then bows or cross bows, and besides, until someone makes a destroy all gunpowder spell, i think pc wont worry about that

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:10 am

my only problem with it is the lack of existence of controllable gun powder in any other place in the game... the dwermer satchel packs seem to be more of a uncontrollable explosion... plus carrying around guns, Ive definetly never heard anything of this in any ES game

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:14 am

What about some Dwemer nuclear bomb? huh?

Shadow_Ranger · Post by **Shadow_Ranger** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:39 am

dwemer this, dewmer that... no offense, but i think your thinking of it in the wrong manner. The dewmer did make some scrazy things, and if i had said something like a pressure washer, then yeah, the dewmer would nail it right on. But i was thinking that gun powder would be a alchemy type thingy. The altmer are elves, so they like bows. THat lives the bretons to be human tpye alchemists. They could make the gun powder. What about that????

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:20 pm

First there is no mention of them in lore whatsoever nor has anyone but the dwemer worked on anything like it. Also since some physics are different there may be no way to make gunpowder. Another not if you look at the power of a fireball compared to a gun I think the fireball wins. But I think the main thing is that the chemicals don't work right to make it. (I mean hey sulfer is red in the game). Could it be added yes there is a slight possibility that it could fit into lore. Should it be added I think not. Also just because something is possible doesn't mean someone is doing it. Even crossbows aren't widely available let alone guns.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 4:49 pm

Actually, the world of TES is very much like the beginning of the European Dark Ages (sans the dwemer, who are more a steampunk Final Fantasy type civilisation, something that never existed IRL). At that time, the roman empire, though split, still existed. Also, the Legions still controlled much of Europe.
Of course, politically and spiritually, there are huge differences - Cyrodiil has never seen loony emperors like Commmodus and Nero, nor have there been Huns or other outside forces attacking, nor have they been influenced by the rather ... intolerant abrahamic faiths.
Technology-wise, they are - magic aside - relatively close. And, to make this clear, IRL there were guns, grenades and even crude Napalm (phoenician fire aka greek fire, lather known as arab fire). But, I go with Earl, who needs dangerous and unreliable gunpowder and grenades when you have fireballs and Daedra?

As for the Dwemer, I would like to point out that they are about on par - technology-wise - with the Worlds of Final Fantasy 4, 6 and 9, which means steam punk, NOT industrial age, let alone SciFi (an age mankind is about to enter, but that is a topic for Silgrad's Raven). They had steam engines, steam robots, airships, and such; but neither Rockets, nor space ships, nor atom bombs. We should make this clear. I have nothing against wild ideas, in fact TR lives by this. But they should fit with the world we trya to create, and atom bombs don't, as do crashed flying saucers, Metroid armours, light sabers and Boba Fett.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:27 pm

actually Cyrodil has seen crazy emporers, lets not forget Mad Pelagius.... he was more just a nut more than a tyrant.... I dont think he murdered people, he was just funny in the head

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:39 pm

Anyone here played the game "Arcanum:Of Steamworks and Magicka Obscura"? Its a Fallout-style RPG that takes place in a fantasy world that is going through an industrial revolution. Its got a nice 19th century feel. Its a very cool universe.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

@Hermit The problem is the explosive charges in Tribunal. That kinda opens the Dwemer up to gunpowder. The other races have not developed that idea yet however and the dwemer didn't use guns in any referance that we know of. So I guess the best way to say it is that someone would have to find and understand the incredibly rare explosive satchels and then devise the gun from that (How long did it take the chinese oh wait that's right they discovered gunpowder but not the gun

) So I really doubt guns would exist.
And except for balancing arcanum was a cool game.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:30 pm

using the mysterious packs given in tribunal is different from understanding them, also they are extremely rare as I have not heard of anything except for in that one quest, for all we know they are magic and not ingredient based, and maybe impossible to understand since the dwemer are gone

Legolas55 · Post by **Legolas55** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:59 pm

The Dwemer were probably just starting to develop explosives and gunpowder before they vanished, otherwise they would have expanded. Also, the Chinese had gunpowder for some time before Europe, but they used them for fire crackers. Maybe the Dwemer didn't think of the idea of guns yet. Guns would throw the game off course. I'd rather have Medieval warfare than the beginning of guns.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:06 pm

@assassinace: So? The chinese have used gunpowder roughly since 500 AD - for fireworks. They were introduced to firearms, however, only when in the early 1600s, english gunboats bombarded Beijing - before that, they had never considered the possibility to use gunpowder fro anything other than firecrackers and the odd flaming arrows with extra range.
Same with the dwemer. They have these charges to blow up things, but thanks to magic (which makes for very nice ranged weaponry) and their fire centurions, the thought of using gunpowder - difficult to handle - for ranged weapons, which likely would be not very precise (precision guns required some 400 years of development in the western world; reflecting this, a dwemer musket (sp) should have the same range and hit propability as a common bow), just never came to them. They have better alternatives. And in the end, such inventions always loose out.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:16 pm

Assassinace wrote:(How long did it take the chinese oh wait that's right they discovered gunpowder but not the gun ) So I really doubt guns would exist.
And except for balancing arcanum was a cool game.

Ok it may just be me but didn't I say that just because the chinese had gunpowder they didn't necissarily figure out the gun. So...

Hermit wrote:So? The chinese have used gunpowder roughly since 500 AD - for fireworks. They were introduced to firearms, however, only when in the early 1600s, english gunboats bombarded Beijing - before that, they had never considered the possibility to use gunpowder fro anything other than firecrackers and the odd flaming arrows with extra range.

Legolas55 wrote:The Dwemer were probably just starting to develop explosives and gunpowder before they vanished, otherwise they would have expanded. Also, the Chinese had gunpowder for some time before Europe, but they used them for fire crackers. Maybe the Dwemer didn't think of the idea of guns yet. Guns would throw the game off course. I'd rather have Medieval warfare than the beginning of guns.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:07 pm

Heh, okay ... you got a point there ace

Still, I am against guns, save for one in a forgotten dwemer inventor's lab ... I have had this idea in the chat before; we could put all kinds of weird inventions in there. That should be fun, don't you think?

Indoril · Post by **Indoril** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:35 pm

Morrowind, if taking place a time period, is probably during the Roman Era, like 500 B.C.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:20 am

Hehe, it reminds of Dungeon siege, they had a civilisation which had developed goblins mini guns and flame trowers. And the best of them all was the chicken gun

shadowmoon · Post by **shadowmoon** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:29 pm

a few ideas i had, dwemer prototype guns that were crude portable cannons, but could only be used once because they break once used and only the dwemer know how to reload them, and perhaps randomly when fired some explode in an accident causing fire damage.

also perhaps relate chinese gunpowder to orcs they strike me as being orientally based, check out orcish armour it looks just like samurai

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 9:22 pm

Uh... the only reason dwarves were so advanced (in my opinion

) was magic. Centorians, devices, ect. was powered by magic. The heart of lokan too. WraithGuard, Sunder, and Keening. Maybe not the satchells. Without magic the devices would be hand cranked (ex. Mysirious, Strange Dwemer devices.) that is why they still are running.

ps. Wouln't dwemer lights be powered by the devices? Just a though