Dwemer and magick

[Stalker]

Let's disscuss it all here, shall we ? It's an interesting disscussion. So...
My point is that they haven't used magick because if they have new True Flame would be enchanted but not with pyroline tar. Plus they would use levitation platforms, not lifts etc. etc. etc. Contragruments anybody ?

[shandrazi]

My $.02 is that it was socially shunned in favor of advanced forms of technology. I doubt seriously the race was incapable of magic. Perhaps because magic could be dispelled, perhaps because of some social stigma (kind of like necromancy is in Morrowind).

[Dexter]

I think the Dwemer were great magicians. Their love of invention stretched beyond simple mechanics, and I'm sure they had plenty of inventions in the field of magicka. Of course, since they were the only race to invent mechanical constructs, this is what other races focus on the most, and I'm sure that this is what the Dwemer bragged about the most, which is where the myth of "mechanics over magicka" came from.
As was said before, it is hard to have one school of magicka without the other. It is well-documented that the Dwemer were master enchanters. But how does one enchant without Soultrap? I would assume that Conjuration was also used, as going out on an adventure for a Golden Saint or Dremora Lord every time you wanted to enchant a weapon would be a royal pain. And in order for the Dwemer to enchant a weapon with Destruction-style enchantments, they must have a rudimentary knowledge of Destruction magicka. And off the top of my head, I know that in-game Dwemer items have been enchanted with Alteration, Destruction and Mysticism. How would they enchant their items without being skilled in these schools of magicka?
I think it is blatantly obvious that the Dwemer were in fact excellent mages.

[Garriath]

I vaguely remember some line in Morrowind 'And the Dwemer and their cursed magicks were destroyed' or something like that.

Could be referring to machines, though... but then again, the machines weren't destroyed, were they?

[Stalker]

As far as I can tell it was reference to the Heart.

2Dexter
But what about arguments I have proved ? Why not to use levitation instead of lifts and Destruction enchantment instead of pyroline tar ?

[Starcrunch]

I think the Dwemer were great magicians. Their love of invention stretched beyond simple mechanics, and I'm sure they had plenty of inventions in the field of magicka. Of course, since they were the only race to invent mechanical constructs, this is what other races focus on the most, and I'm sure that this is what the Dwemer bragged about the most, which is where the myth of "mechanics over magicka" came from.
As was said before, it is hard to have one school of magicka without the other. It is well-documented that the Dwemer were master enchanters. But how does one enchant without Soultrap? I would assume that Conjuration was also used, as going out on an adventure for a Golden Saint or Dremora Lord every time you wanted to enchant a weapon would be a royal pain. And in order for the Dwemer to enchant a weapon with Destruction-style enchantments, they must have a rudimentary knowledge of Destruction magicka. And off the top of my head, I know that in-game Dwemer items have been enchanted with Alteration, Destruction and Mysticism. How would they enchant their items without being skilled in these schools of magicka?
I think it is blatantly obvious that the Dwemer were in fact excellent mages.

This pretty much spells it out...to enchant an object you need to know the magic for the enchantment...the dwemer enchanted objects so must have known magic.

Also we are talking about a group of people who attempted to create a GOD and almost did it. You're telling me they did that with just machines...

Edit: Stalker, unfortunately you are arguing from the side which is much harder to defend...you must prove in every case the Dwemer did not use magic while your opponents in this debate need only prove they used magic in a singular instance. This give them the ability to ignore other situations where they did not use magic (ie. if you find 99 instances where the Dwemer used technology over magic and your opponents find 1 instance where they used magic then your thesis is incorrect).

-Starcrunch

[Dexter]

But what about arguments I have proved ? Why not to use levitation instead of lifts and Destruction enchantment instead of pyroline tar ?

It is irrational to say that every Dwemer was skilled in magicka. Every Dwemer could not levitate him or herself at will, so lifts were needed. And as I said, the Dwemer prided themselves on being the only race to be mechanical inventors, so they took every opportunity to show it off. As you know, magicka wears out. You cast a few spells, and you need to rest for a while before you can cast another. If you get a good mechanical system running, you can power your lifts and other machines for an indefinite amount of time without having to rest. I would think that the magickally-inclined Dwemer would want to save their magicka for something worthwhile like enchanting instead of levitating, when a simple lift could do it for them.
And pyroil tar? Did you ever consider that the tar was only an agent in the enchanting, and not the sole soure of the enchantment? Perhaps the pyroil tar was used to enchance the flame enchantment.
Anyways, as has been said, you cannot build a walking god with machines alone. If that were possible, why are there no walking gods on Earth? The Dwemer were a magickal race, no doubt about it.

[Stalker]

No, I fully agree that Dwemer were skilled enchanters. But I do not think that magick was that widespread among them. I think that only Tonal Architects (and Yagrum is proof of that) were able to use magick (enchantment). And pyroline tar... Remember what Radac Stungnthumz said to you ?
"Well, if that's all you want to do...! You don't need a mystic, whelp. I can take care of that for you. We'll need some Pyroil Tar, though. Used to have some around here...but that was a long time ago. You can find it in the lower caves of Norenen-dur, in the Citadel of Myn Dhrur. It's an old ruin far beneath Bamz-Amschend. I swear, no one is happy with a simple blade that cleaves bone...always need the special effects."

[Dexter]

So even if the pyroil tar is what enchants the blade, what abour all the other stuff? The Dwemer were a race of Mer, which are, on the whole, more magickally-gifted than men. It doesn't make sense to say that only a select group of them could use magick. The nature of Dwemer means that if they learned to use something, they would embrace it. They would not keep it reserved to a select group. They were hungry to learn and invent, and if they learned how to use magicka, they would want it to be as widespread throughout their race as possible, to increase the number of inventors/scholars in their population.
And as I said, you cannot enchant with the Enchant school alone. You need to know the school of magicka that you are enchanting with, Mysticism to bind the soul to a soulgem, Conjuration to call up the souls you are going to use...
I can see where you are coming from with your arguement, but it just doesn't make sense for the Dwemer to be a non-magickal race.

[Túrelio]

To me the Dwemer were inventors and explorers, and they invented and explored into both mechanical and magical fields, and likely combined the two when ever possible. Where one thing may not work another might, and perhaps be more practical. Think of the Dwemer as Scientists in the field of magical mechanics.

[Stalker]

So even if the pyroil tar is what enchants the blade, what abour all the other stuff? The Dwemer were a race of Mer, which are, on the whole, more magickally-gifted than men. It doesn't make sense to say that only a select group of them could use magick. The nature of Dwemer means that if they learned to use something, they would embrace it. They would not keep it reserved to a select group. They were hungry to learn and invent, and if they learned how to use magicka, they would want it to be as widespread throughout their race as possible, to increase the number of inventors/scholars in their population.
And as I said, you cannot enchant with the Enchant school alone. You need to know the school of magicka that you are enchanting with, Mysticism to bind the soul to a soulgem, Conjuration to call up the souls you are going to use...
I can see where you are coming from with your arguement, but it just doesn't make sense for the Dwemer to be a non-magickal race.

Pyroil was not used to ENCHANT the blade. It was used to make it burn. And that's two different things. It's like when you pour gasoline on the floor and set it on fire. You don't enchant the floor.
And Dexter you amnaged to convince me that they used magick. But I'm still convinced that it wasn't that widespread as you tell. At least there were not so many magicians among Dwemer.

[AlphaFemale]

I am a bit biased towards Dexter's side (we do sleep in the same bed, after all), but I have never seen any lore that would suggest that mages are as rare in Dwemer culture as you suggest. And if there is no lore suggesting so, don't we have to assume that the proportion of magicka-users is the same as in every other mer culture? Show us some lore that says that mages are rare, and I will believe you, but until then, your arguements aren't based on anything concrete.
I think that if anything, the Dwemer had more mages than the Dunmer (although not as many as the Altmer). Their lust for invention would drive every Dwemer with even minimal magickal skill to practice it. The reason that their magicka is not as apparent is similar to the way some magicians preform tricks. They draw your attention to one hand, so you do not pay attention to what their other hand is doing. The Dwemer were the only ones with machines, so everyone oogled and obsessed over them, and did not pay attention to their magickal skills, because every race has mages.

[Stalker]

I would be extremly surprised if you supported my side Maybe you're right (I'm begining to try to convince myself that I was wrong) but Dwemer definatly didn't have as many mages as Dunmer have know (dunno about Chimer though). Dunmer have at least one Great House which consist from mages only. Plus Chimer worshipped ancestrors (Conjuratin) and Daedra (all other schools). So i doubt that Dwemer had that amount of mages. But still neither I nor you can be certain about something when it comes to Dwemer.


EDIT: I must admit that you were all right and I was wrong. Why ?
The War of the First Council

[This account by the Imperial scholar Agrippa Fundilius is based on various Imperial and Dunmer sources, and written for Western readers.]

The War of the First Council was a First Age religious conflict between the secular Dunmer Houses Dwemer and Dagoth and the orthodox Dunmer Houses Indoril, Redoran, Dres, Hlaalu, and Telvanni. The First Council was the first pan-Dunmer governing body, which collapsed over disputes about sorceries and enchantments practiced by the Dwemer and declared profane by the other Houses.

The Secular Houses, less numerous, but politically and magically more advanced, and aided by Nord and Orc clans drawn by promise of land and booty, initially campaigned with great success in the north of Morrowind, and occupied much of the land now comprising Redoran, Vvardenfell, and Telvanni District. The Orthodox Houses, widely dispersed and poorly organized, suffered defeat after defeat until Nerevar was made general of all House troops and levies.

Nerevar secured the aid of nomad barbarian tribesmen, and contrived to force a major battle at the Secular stronghold of Red Mountain on Vvardenfell. The Secular forces were outmaneuvered and defeated with the help of Ashlander scouts, and the survivors forced to take refuge in the Dwemer stronghold at Red Mountain.

After a brief siege, treason permitted Nerevar and his troops to enter the stronghold, where the Secular leaders were slain, and Nerevar mortally wounded. General slaughter followed, and Houses Dwemer and Dagoth were exterminated. Nerevar died shortly thereafter of his wounds.

Three of Nerevar's associates among the Orthodox Houses, Vivec, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil, succeeded to control of the re-created First Council, re-named the Grand Council of Morrowind, and went on to be come the god-kings and immortal rulers of Morrowind known as the Tribunal, or Almsivi.

[Zalzidrax]

You don't actually need to be able to cast a spell to enchant an item with its effects. You just need to know the effect. So I would postulate that the dwemer did know the elements of destruction and the patterns of how to weave them onto objects, but not so much how to cast the spells directly.

[Starcrunch]

I always looked at that as an erring Imperial account of the war on Red Mountain that is specificaly put in Casius Cosades's (sp?) House to give the PC some back story at the begining of the Vvardenfell main quest. I think other sources claim the Dwemer and Chimer were not the same mer group, this story makes them the 7th house (this is odd since the Imperial's know the Dwemer were spread across Tamriel while the Chimer were local). It also claims that House Dagoth was their ally which is false no matter whose account you believe at Red Mountain.

-Starcrunch

[Stalker]

Hmmm. Didn't think about it. I was under the impression after seeing the line about dwemer magicians...

[Garriath]

I'm pretty sure the Dwemer used magick in The 36 Sermons of Vivec, but that, as we've argued about before, is somewhat difficult to trust.

[Gleb]

Stalker, they're talking about the use of Lorkhan's Heart to create a new god, something that the Chimer would be highly offended by, especially considering the most obvious purpose is to use it to destroy the Chimer. But then again, we can't ask the Dwemer for their account. A shame, really.

[Stalker]

OK. I've found a something that could be a proof that dwemer used magick but not all of them but only the chosen. Yagrum's words:
"Do you know what this is? This is Wraithguard, an enchanted device created ages ago by my former master, High Craftlord Kagrenac, a long-dead Dwemer mage-smith. I believe it is one of the tools he created to forge mythopoeic enchantments. I was one of Lord Kagrenac's Master Crafters, and though I didn't work on this project, I knew of it from my fellow mage-smiths."

[Nomadic1]

Could a mage-smith be simply what the Dwemer called an enchanter?

[Stumpytheguar]

<edited to remove 'spam' content>

[Zalzidrax]

Bloody heck! I don't think we disagree as much as you seem to think we do. Just read what I happen to think more carefully. The dwarves are definitely NOT anti-magic, they just understand how it works in a different manner than 3rd era wizards do with everything laid out all nicely into schools. They don't have mages, they have mage-smiths, who instead of hurling magic about, weave it into objects and empower their constructs with it. They also know a great deal about constructing and forging things physically, so that their equipment is exceptional even without magic.

[Gleb]

Hmmm...

I don't think they would add the word "mage" if all they were was simple enchanters.

[Stalker]

I think dwemeris just didn't have the word "enchater" or "enchantment"

[Gleb]

Doesn't Yaggie use the words "mythopoeic enchantments?" So, logically, they would have had enchantment, right? Otherwise, it'd be like having the word murder, but not the word murder.

[Zalzidrax]

Maybe mage-smiths are both more magical and more, err, smithical, than enchanters.

[Stalker]

BTW Yagrum is talking in Tamrielic, not in Dwemeric. Plus in some books I read that dwemer used golems to compensate lack of magick. Sorry, but I don't remember which books it was 'coz in last few days I read SOOO much about dwemer so I have a mix of knowledge in my head.

[Snakebite]

Now i dont know how true this information is but...it was in the imperial library.

"The Dwemer....
First and foremost, one must ask themselves, were the dwemer a carefree or a careless race? Were they tolerable or were they tyrants? Did they create machines of offensive or defensive? What *IS* known is, they were great inventors of machine and construct. Magic was not favored by them, but it is rumored that there was some practice within their numbers. Did the Tribunal fear them? We know that in order for the Tribunal to gain their "God-Men" Power, they had to defeat the Dwemer to recover what they had in their possession. It is not very likely that the Tribunal feared the Dwemer, they simply feared what the dwemer could become. Afterall, an entire race that was as poswerful as the small Tribunal would be quite a power to be reconned with."

[Dexter]

"Do you know what this is? This is Wraithguard, an enchanted device created ages ago by my former master, High Craftlord Kagrenac, a long-dead Dwemer mage-smith. I believe it is one of the tools he created to forge mythopoeic enchantments. I was one of Lord Kagrenac's Master Crafters, and though I didn't work on this project, I knew of it from my fellow mage-smiths."

To me, this passage does not tell us that magic was exclusively used. It tells us that there was a caste of Dwemer called the mage-smiths, and it also tells us that the Dwemer certainly DID use magic in their crafting, but I don't see how it supports the idea that the Dwemer were mostly non-magickal.

[Snakebite]

Those "some" who practised magic were probably magesmiths...i didnt read the topic where this whole conversation started but both sides were right.
Isnt that compromise (or something like that) in english?

Of course..because i dont know what started this conversation i dont know how it will help stalker.

(hes the one who needs the info right? or is this just talking for fun?)

[Rutsui]

I think the only reason why the dwemer had such technology was because of their magick as magick and technology are not polar oposites and in my opinion technology and science are just a form of magic that the common man can understand

[Stalker]

OK. More on topic. Dwemer are descendants from Ehlnofey. It is rumored that because they were really close to Ehlnofey when they created Earth Bones we have such intlligent race. When they first arrived on Morrowind Dwemer possibly DID use the magick. But than they decided to use the power of the Earth Bones instead. So enchanting w\o soultrapping (like in was in Daggerfal if my memory is correct) etc.

[Marauth Alaí-Raán]

We don't know when they split from the main trunk of Elven races, certainly not when they were Ehlnofey, the Ehlnofey had all but dissappeared by the time they arrived on Tamriel, by this point the main body of elves were the Aldmeri, from whom the Chimer and Orsimer evolved, the only remaining Ehlnofey were the Ayleids and the forest people who were made into the Khajiit by Azura and the Bosmer by Y'ffre.

The Dwemeri roots are unknown but it is more likely that they were exiled from the Kingdom of Alinor for either their physical condition - bearded men and pale skin would be an anathema to the Aldmeri - or for their preference of technology, IMO it is more likely the former as the latter would mean that they were already becoming technologically advanced in the middle Merethic Era, which is a fair stretch IMO.

Anyway, if they indeed split from the main trunk of the Aldmeri rather than the Ehlnofey then their magicka skills would have been at least as advanced at the time as the Altmer are now, even the Altmeri tongue is a powerful magical weapon, capable of driving men to madness, the Ehlnofey tongue was many times more dangerous so it is reasonable to assume that Aldmeri is a middle ground, not just their language but their magicka skills in general. Over time the Dwemeri as a whole may have either shunned (unlikely given their thirst for knowledge), or neglected their magickal training in favour of technological advancement. In either case they should have inevitably reached a point where they could not progress further in a given field with mundane technology alone so they fused the use of magicka and technology into endeavours such as the psijic endeavour (the tonal architects, the creation of Numidium) and some lesser concerns like making fiery swords, regardless of the pyroil tar used, just pouring a form of crude oil on a sword won't make it burn with magicka for hundreds of years, not even five minutes, metal doesn't burn last time I checked, the enchantment on Trueflame is clearly magickal in nature.

Just my €0.02

[Stalker]

even the Altmeri tongue is a powerful magical weapon, capable of driving men to madness

You're damn right ! "It is my duty to help less fortunate than myself"
About the rest of the post... I doubt that Dwemer moved to Summerset. If it was so that why Chimer didn't move with them for example ? Dwemer, IMHO, split from Ehlnofey rather that Ald(t)mer.

[Marauth Alaí-Raán]

No I said they were originally Aldmer who went with the rest of the Aldmer to Sumurset and when they manifested their 'condition' - beards and pale skin, for whatever reason, maybe they were screwing around with powerful magicks, they were banished, they then moved to Vvardenfell and began work on more technological advancements. Then as we all know a bunch of Aldmer got gulled by the lies of the Daedra and became the Chimer, they left Sumurset and went to what they then called Velothi, which later became Resdayn once they allied to the Dwemer.

The thing about the Aldmer/Ehlnofey is they were two separate co-existing groups before they ever left Old Ehlnofey/Aldmeris. The Aldmer were already Aldmer when they arrived in Sumurset they had changed their culture before they set sail - one would assume they sailed - for Sumurset, the Ehlnofey who had retained their original language and traditions distanced themselves from the Aldmer and settled the heartlands around the newly constructed White-Gold Tower. The only thing I could think of to link the Dwemer with the Ehlnofey would be the incomprehensible language of the Dwemer which bears no resemblance to other Meri languages, but if it is descended from Ehlnofey then wouldn't Aldmeri which we know for sure is descended from Ehlnofey be equally, alien to us, I think their language is artificial, that is they created it, (much like Esperanto was created in the real world) but they did it to prevent others from learning their secrets, they knew Aldmeri, as some of their books are written in the old elven tongue so maybe that was their 'natural' language which they eventually rejected in favour of their own artificially created language. It's a stretch but it would explain the completely different structure and vocabulary of the language.

Re: those elven women, I'd imagine they're speaking Tamrielic rather than Altmeri but I appreciate the slightly chauvanist joke nonetheless LOL

[Nigedo]

I think that's quite a reasonable synopsis Marauth. Much of what you say about the division between Ehlnofey and Aldmer is hypothesis though, there really isn't sufficient evidence to support your claims entirely as fact. But I agree with it nonetheless.

There is one point though, I don't believe that there is anything to suggest that the Dwemer were definitely "banished" from Summerset. They may well have just left of their own volition.

[Stalker]

If my lore knowledge is more or less complete... I doubt Dwemer even visited Summerset. They divided from Ehlnofey back than when Elves were Ehlnofey. It's only after the division Aldmer moved to Summerset, right ?

[Nigedo]

An excerpt from the Anuad (an unreliable source IMO, but the best we have for this information);

"Over many years, the Ehlnofey of Tamriel became the Mer (Elves):
The Dwemer (the Deep Ones, sometimes called Dwarves)
The Chimer (the Changed Ones, who later became the Dunmer)
The Dunmer (the Dark or Cursed Ones, the Dark Elves)
The Bosmer (the Green or Forest Ones, the Wood Elves)
The Altmer (The Elder or High Ones, the High Elves)."


The "Ehlnofey of Tamriel" referred to in the Anuad are basically Aldmer, the First Folk. This is illustrated by comparative notes in the timeline at TIL, Middle Merethic Era (source: MK);

"Aldmeri (Elves) leave the doomed and now-lost continent of Aldmeris (also known as 'Old Ehlnofey') and settle Tamriel.

First colonies are distributed widely along the entire coast of Tamriel. Later inland settlements were founded primarily in fertile lowlands in southwest and central Tamriel."

Then *later*;

"The Dwemer (Dwarves), a free-thinking, reclusive Elven clan devoted to the secrets of science, engineering, and alchemy, established underground cities and communities in the mountain range (later the Velothi Mountains) separating modern Skyrim and Resdayn/Morrowind."


While not completely conclusive (which is why I said the same to Marauth above ), the timeline also shows that both Summerset and the Ayleid civilization were well established and thereby the largest concentrations of Aldmer in Tamriel, before the Dwemer began to build their own settlements. This all does seem to suggest that the Dwemer may have made their own exodus from Summerset like the Chimer and Orsimer that followed them.

According to the Lessons, there are ten "tribes of the Altmer". Altmer and Aldmer are sometimes used interchangably in ancient lore, and this may be a further reference to the fragmentation of the Aldmer into ten racial groups. How many can you count?