Indoril and Dres law

Nazz · Post by **Nazz** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:45 pm

Munkie and myself both have plans for changing the way the guards in the respective Great Houses we are creating react to the player commiting a crime. And I would just like to get a feel for what you guys as players think about these changes.

With the Indoril everything would be the same except no "pay money and go free" option. I have always thought being able to pay 1000 gold or whatever it is for murder and being able to go free is rediculous. As has been stated before the player has a ton of money so letting him get away with crimes by shelling out chump change doesn't seem right to me. The indoril guards will explain this to you when you ask them about "Dunmer law" by saying that unlike the Imperials and other Great Houses they do not bow to money so criminals either do the time or die where they stand. Of course if you are in the Tong and have a legal writ you will be able to go free as usual.

Munkies plans for the Dres are a bit different. You will only have two options resist arrest and fight for you freedom in the Dres arena. I'm not sure on the specifics of the fighting but it would be to the death and if you win you are free to go. Again if you are in the tong and have a legit writ you can go free.

So from a players perspective how do these ideas sound? Do they sound like interesting and potentialy fun additions to the legal system? Or are they crap.

Geowulf · Post by **Geowulf** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:55 pm

The Dres approach sounds like a lot of fun. But it might encourage people to break the law rather than preventing it

. So the fight in the arena should be tough and adjusted to the player skilllevel.

Anyway, I like both ideas. They would be good additions.

Post by **Kevaar** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:28 pm

I like the Dres idea, and agree with the Indoril. Hey, about fines...instead of it always being a certain amount, should it be adjusted to character level or money level of the character? Then it might not be so silly to only have to pay 1000 gold when you have 100k+

Crowbar · Post by **Crowbar** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:56 pm

sounds great. makes sense that Dunmer would adhere to different laws and consequences than the Imperials, and when a crime is committed in their holy cities they're not going to bother with fines.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:45 pm

I agree, although I think that the pay gold option - instead of being taken away - be substituted by a bribe option, but only for the guards in the lesser, smaller, unimportant towns and cities, such as offering a 100 gold piece bribe instead of paying a 150 or 200 gold piece fine. And if your luck is a certain level (this will probably not be possible) then he accepts the bribe, if not, you goto jail, and your sentence is increased, or maybe he might just attack you on the spot, as the bribe would be a tarnish in his honor.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:00 am

I think maybe other options such as bribe, persuade, should be made. Also don't forget slave bracers and your equipment taken in the arena. Finally I would think something like breaking and entering should still only be a fine so could you make it that crimes under a certain gold value can still be payed?

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 12:27 am

and the options and amount of gold you must pay or time you must spend should be based on the damage you do or the value of the item you take, like instead of paying a 100 gold fine for stealing a cloth shirt, and a 100 gold fine for stealing an ebony cuirass, it should be like 10 gold for basically useless items, and 100 gold piece variations for the value of the armor, and if you kill someone, like a commoner, then you pay like a 100 gold fine, if you kill a ranking guild member, then its 150, if you kill a grandmaster or master of a guild, then its 250, if you kill a legion member or guard, its 150, if you kill a ranking officer, its 500, if you kill a duke or captain, or general, or some other royal or very important person its like 1000 or higher. Like, I killed a drill master and my bounty went from 50 gold to 1050 gold.

Post by **Kevaar** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:48 am

You get a 1000 gold bounty for killing anyone. Then the guards start to arrest you on sight And after a bounty of 5000 gold, you have been sentenced to die, no matter how much you pay.
But I like that idea of varrying the bounty according to the murdered person rank. I doubt you would just be charged 1000 gold if you killed King Helseth, for example.

RaJevir · Post by **RaJevir** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 2:17 am

True, for killing King Helseth, you might just be proclaimed a hero, in addition to other people trying to execute you...

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:39 am

Last I heard, regicide, no matter the regent, is an offense punishable by torture until death. ;-)

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:45 am

Anyway, to address the original post, I like the Indoril idea, but people will quickly find that the easiest way to dodge punishment is to go back to Vvardenfell and pay a fine there.

I don't like the Dres idea much, myself. If you're strong enough to murder someone, then you should logically be strong enough to murder another one to win your freedom -- especially if your life was on the line this time.

Consistency is key -- I say just use the Indoril idea for the both of them. (And, of course, some of the guards may be corrupt and accept a bribe equal to the bounty. But your chances of that happening are pretty slim.)

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:08 am

It brings to question who the Dres would make you fight.

It can't be a prisoner, since they don't have them.

It shouldn't be a slave, since they are just too damned easy and wouldn't present an incentive to follow the law.

Professional fighters just wouldn't really last long, since the first Joe Dragonslayer that walks into town and steals a sujamma would kill off the professional fighter in the arena and all the time/money put into training him would be lost. Another problem with professional arena fighters would be that after the local fighter dies, there is no incentive to follow the law and total anarchy ensues.

Monsters bred for the purpose might work, but you can't find a monster in the wilderness that can take on Joe Dragonslayer. None of them are nasty enough. This means that even after the costly upkeep of the many animals required for each crime committed, Joe Dragonslayer can still steal as many sujammas as he pleases.

I think that the only realistic thing for the Dres to do is to use summoned daedra for each arena fight. They have no upkeep cost, have a wide variety of difficulties, and enough golden saints (5 or so) can take on most Joe Dragonslayers. The type and number of summoned daedra is proportional to the crime committed (and, perhaps, the number of times the crime was committed). This way, no one would think of committing higher-end crimes, since things like regicide would be punishable by a circle of 10 golden saints. At the same time, the crowds at the arena can be pleased with an appropriately balanced match between the 12-time sujamma thief repeat offender Joe Dragonslayer vs a large pile of summoned golden saints and winged twilights.

Did this post make sense to anyone?

Nazz · Post by **Nazz** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:33 am

So you want to kill me with the scripting eh?

I haven't really given the arena thing a whole lot of thougth since its Munkies brain child, but I think he planned on forcing the player to fight with crappy armor and a crappy weapon to make it more difficult.

As for people going back to Vvardenfell, I hadn't thought of that, though really they wouldn't have to go back to Vvardenfell just the nearest non Indoril/Dres town, since I hadn't planned on changing the other house guards since they were already set up in Morrowind.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:09 am

If it was your intention to have the player fight a Dres/Indoril gaurd in the Arena, I don't think that makes much sense. The player should have the chance to fight for his freedom through the entertainment of the local royalty/leader against some barbarians or creatures. Kinda like the Roman Arenas where criminals and slaves were thrown into the Arenas to fight. So, if that was your intention, cool.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:20 am

Hmm... you know, the Dres idea could fly with non-Daedra opponents if the rules were against the player.

Say, for the player's *three* opponents, he must wound them below 25% health, at which point they surrender and are protected by a sanctuary cast from outside the ring (for convenience, it'd just be added to the fighter and the fighter would StopCombat and withdraw). If the player makes all three surrender, s/he wins.

The player, on the other hand, is fighting for his/her life. The judiciaries want to see nothing less than his/her brains scattered across the arena.

That way, it's non-lethal combat for the player's opponents; the people who the player fights in the arena get tougher as the player commits more crimes (technically, they just scale compared to the player's level, but every developer needs to justify [edit - almost] everything added into a project). If you hacked me up within an inch of my life, and made me lose face by surrendering in battle, the next time we met, I'd be *mad*. =)

Of course, the Daedra one works a lot better. But does it bode well? I mean, isn't Daedra summoning a crime according to the Empire and the Dunmer?

Vagara · Post by **Vagara** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:44 am

What about having the losing PC in the Dres arena become a slave?

I definitely like the arena concept. To make it a challenge, the script could be simple: check PC level, select NPC arena warrior level = PC level.

Another solution would be to have hand2hand challenges. Loser loses possessions or becomes slave or has to perform some quest...

Indoril prisoners might be required to perform some service...

Ben

Inferno_str1ke · Post by **Inferno_str1ke** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:04 pm

if all you armour and weapons were confiscated then itd be harder
or if you had to fight that annoying ebony clad bosmer from mournhold.

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 3:37 pm

I think that daedra summoning is legal, since bound weapons are the same thing and they are used frequently by ordinators. I believe that the invocation of daedra princes is what is illegal, for obvious reasons, and I think that only applies to the "bad" daedra princes in Morrowind. Keep in mind that summoned lesser daedra are of the same mind as those who summon them, so a daedroth summoned by a "good guy" would act in a civil manner.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:08 am

...But guards attack you if you summon Daedra.

[edit] I should mention to most people that it is not possible to confiscate items from a player unless you know at the time of making the plugin what the player possesses or can possibly possess at that time.

For example, you cannot confiscate a player's weapons. You can try removing all weapons that the player owns based on their predefined object types, but aside from being a massive script, it's still not capable of recognising objects from other plugins.

You can, however, use a trick to make the player take off all of his/her items; add items to the player for every body part, force the player to Equip them, then remove those new items from the player. The player's items will return to his/her inventory, of course. [/edit]

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:31 pm

Then what script does the werewolf use?

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 1:35 pm

The werewolf simply denies you access to your inventory. This really wouldn't work in our case.

The guards don't attack you if you summon daedra. It says they do in the manual, but they don't. Plus, when you consider that the Dres are long-time daedra worshippers, it only makes sense that they would use their minions for arena battles.

Post by **Kevaar** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:29 pm

Telvanni and Hlaalu guards summon bonewalkers when they are attacked, so why not daedra? And when you're talking about getting rid of some infamous murderer, I think the law would turn a blind eye... And parading the fact that you would be fighting DAEDRA is more detering than some guy that you don't know. One-on-one NPC battles are pretty easy, even if it is tailored to your level. Fighting 10 Golden Saints would be much harder, because you're being hit so many times you can't attack.

Casious · Post by **Casious** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 4:56 pm

its not possible to fight 10 golden saints all at one, thats just not realistic.
LG: do you really think that they would use the daedras that they worship in public arena battles? Thats like turning religion into entertainment.

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 7:23 pm

They don't worship golden saints, they worship Azura and them. The daedric princes. They couldn't care less about all the lesser daedra. That is why the daedra worshippers at daedric shrines often summon daedra for combat and also for general guarding of the shrine.

I know that 10 golden saints isn't realistic, but that is the payment for killing a monarch! It SHOULD be an instant death by execution, but this would provide more entertainment value. Lesser crimes mean lesser daedra.

PS: I think Lord Aram Gallant the 200th level paladin could take ten golden saints:).

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:26 pm

I don't think 10 golden saints is that hard. Also being a werewolf unequips all of the stuff you have equiped (Or is that part of disabling the item menu)? One other way though would be to force you to wear a gladiators outfit (Certain clothes with slave bracers that can't be removed)

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 8:40 pm

If they start out surrounding you, it would be a serious pain to try to defeat that. Especially if your agility is only 100 or less. You will end up being tossed around so much that you can't get a hit in edgewise. Very challenging, but certainly possible for some characters.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:48 pm

Just cast an invisability or something and run around the outside killing them one at a time. Or levitate and take them out with spell (assuming you don't have slave bracers on.). If you don't have your equipment with a 100 unarmored and 100 hand to hand it should be possible although difficult.

Post by **Kevaar** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:55 pm

The question is: should this arena thing be possible or impossible for the character to fight through? How much of a chance should we give the character to win?

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:58 pm

If the character stole a sujamma, it should be fairly easy. Though a 1-5 level character would have a real chance of dying. If the character killed a political official, circle of ten golden saints.

I also think that the arena could disallow levitation and teleportation. Otherwise, almost any average criminal would be able to get out of the situation.

Post by **Kevaar** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:05 pm

Yea, if you had levitation in Vivec, you could get out the Arena and terrorize the populace with your outlawness! And the guards couldn't even grab you! At least, I don't THINK Ordinators know how to levitate....

Outlawness...what an interesting word...hmm, 'tis what happens when Kevaar has something to say that he (er, she) can't describe. The birth of new words! And I think I'm begining to ramble, so I'll hush up now...

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:10 pm

Hmm. what's with the "he (er, she)" bit?

Radical Edward · Post by **Radical Edward** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:19 am

Winged Twilights and Hungers or the 'Spider Daedra' (Mephalas - someone needs to make these) are 'good' daedra and could be used such or, it could be like the telvanni summoning of bonewalkers which is allowed because its their ancestors, a fight against a spirit of the ancestors of the person you stole from/killed, that way it would be more appeasing for the victim or somesuch. Golden Saints wouldn't be used as they are Sheogoraths creatures and governments using the creatures of the Deadra of Madness wouldn't really speak well for them. But using the Aedra would be good as they represent stasis - invaluable to governments - (Aedra and Deadra)
Read 'Ancestors and the Dunmer' for Ancestor summoning info 'Darkest Darkness' For Daedra info.

(I had TES open)

You could implement a few of the Chargen scripts to cripple the Player like no Inven. or no 3rd-person or jumping or spells of any kind

By the way in 'Mysticism' it says 'The Psijics of the Isle of Artaeum' where is this isle? what is it like? maybe i'll have a go building it.

Or you could stick loadsa transparant one-way walls and make a labyrinthine gauntlet.

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:06 am

A summoned daedra and its summoner are always of the same mind, assuming the summoner is powerful enough to control the creature he summoned. Bad or good wouldn't matter, the daedra would do what its summoner told it to do.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:11 am

Based on my own limited travels across Vvardenfell I would have to say that the average criminal does NOT have levitation. Almsivi Intervention maybe, but not neccessarily levitation. And anyways, if they are folks hanging around powerful enough to control Golden Saints and summon up perfect Sanctuary spells from the stands then they could surely stop a player from levitating. And even if we're trying to make it more player-oriented, as an average player myself I would have to say that even a few Golden Saints would pose a formidable challenge esp. if deprived of my armor and weapons. Remember that not all our prospective players will be Morrowind gods. Assume nothing. Here's another idea: Restore Health potions are a known item almost every player uses, why not make a script to take those? Final thought: As far as I have seen so far, one of the main goals of this project is to expand the current world while keeping it consistent with what is laid out in Morrowind. Vvardenfell law enforcement is not anywhere near this difficult, and isn't that the way the Bethesda team intended it? Shouldn't we always use their efforts as the standard for ours?

These are my thoughts on the subject, take them or leave them. :p

Nehron, TR Newbie

Post by **Kevaar** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:57 am

Originally posted by Lord_Gallant
Hmm. what's with the "he (er, she)" bit?

Kevaar the Dunmer is male.

I, using the name as a nickname, am female.

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:42 am

Personally for the arena it would be easy to make it interesting.
Make an index based on char lv and bounty. At low lv/bounty have them fight difficult beasts. At mid levels have them fight a group of slaves, fighters, other people fighting from bounties, summons. At high level and bounty have them do a large ritual to one of the deadric gods (Hircine comes to mind) and have a more quest like battle where depending on the deadra something happens (For hircine you are whisked off to a maze of really deadly enemies where you have to get out before they kill you)

Sparky · Post by **Sparky** » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:48 am

I think we should just set it up like it normally was in vvardenfell. If you guys read the "join the project" section they say they don't want anything you wouldn't already find in Vvardenfell.

While they are cool ideas, it's already alot of work to implement most quest and this just sounds like more work.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:13 pm

Kevaar wrote:Yea, if you had levitation in Vivec, you could get out the Arena and terrorize the populace with your outlawness! And the guards couldn't even grab you! At least, I don't THINK Ordinators know how to levitate....

Well the game won't let you levitate in Mournhold, and it won't let you teleport with Dagoth Ur, so the tools to keep the player trapped in the arena are there. We just have to remember to use them.

I think the daedra summoning idea is cool, if there just could be a way of disarming the player completely and leaving them in unremovable slave bracers and common pants. Then they stick the player in the middle of the local arena, summon daedra around them, and put weak weapons on the side for the player to run for. Maybe hide a silver one somewhere so they have a chance against the daedra, but mainly having ineffectual ones. The slave bracers could also be modified to damage magicka (instead of drain, which I remember it being, I'll have to check) so that even if the player were a mage, they'd have to get spells off really fast or else their magic is gone.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:21 pm

I've been thing about arena fights... And what I came out with:
1) it'll impossible to confiscate all PC's equipment. I tried it, many times, no succes. BUT !!! I have wonderful idea. Cast damage weapon and damage armor spells on player and ForceEquip a pair of pant + uber slave bracers (no more drain magicka:3 The value must be at least 200 for a pair)
2) I think 10 Golden Saints won't go. Maybe one really powerful spider daedra, 2 dremora lords + a few winged twilights with support of 1-2 Golden Saint archers will go

Of course it will any happen if PC stolen some special sujamma or forced some politician to drink a few buckets of nord mead

3) The rules must be strict. I mean player must understand that there won't be any "pay-n-go" like in original game (ahh this rule not to modify VF...).
Somebody will tell that mages won't stand a chance. Yes, they won't. And they must not steal. Or at least they must use invisibility before...
4) I think player must be able to equip rings and amulets. For example player wants to become a werewolf right in the middle of the fight via Hircine's ring. Let him. It's fair enough.
5) If player became a werewolf everybody must forget about it when he leaves arena. That would be fair too.

Xerox · Post by **Xerox** » Sun May 02, 2004 10:27 am

Spuzzum wrote:Last I heard, regicide, no matter the regent, is an offense punishable by torture until death.

But you see, there is this 'Accident' policy. For example its QUITE natural for people to die of natural causes such as, riped appart by wild animals. Plus HOW would you PROVE that you kiled Helseth? And yes You'd be proclaimed a hero.

Plus curently the emperor is 'weak', relatively speaking, and you'd probably get away with a bit more than murder of a unpopular monarch.