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Description:
Before release, Almas Thirr interiors will need a pass to ensure clutter/standards are appropriate.
Please post a Comment for things you want considered. I have posted some that have been brought up. They can be actioned or disregarded based on dev consensus.
TO DO:
- General minor issue pass: https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/asset/andaram-almast-thirr-minor-matter-...
- Comment - aveno: Notably review Canalworks Tombs. IMO: Remove unecessary cobbles. Ensure flora/miscs are scaled to 1.0. Change ash urn room so ash urns are 0.5 and placed on altars rather than cobbled shelves. Make it more in line with vanilla canton tomb ints.
(Aveno to look at this)
- Comment from vern: Almas Thirr, Temple: Almas Thirr already has a public tomb. This temple therefore should only have a single ashpit rather than a multitude. Needs more beds.
(Peter on this)
- Comment - aveno: Northern Lighthouse. I disagree with it having a cave section. The cave isn't badly made or anything, but it is a cave section cobbled on to a lighthouse interior. That they've (the Indoril) made a window in the wall for an archery range is a bit too silly imo and doesn't seem like the soundest architectural decision. - Drama!
[More will be added to this list]
Comments
"Almas Thirr, Temple: Almas
"Almas Thirr, Temple: Almas Thirr already has a public tomb. This temple therefore should only have a single ashpit rather than a multitude. Needs more beds."
Obviously I'm biased on this since I made this interior, but I strongly disagree with this point. First of all, there are enough bedsfor the number of npc's that were supposed to be present in the temple. Even so, you don't need a bed for every npc any more than you need exact dinner ware. Second, removing all the ashpits involves redoing a significant amount of the interior to shuffle things around. This should have been taken into consideration in design. But beyond that, a single ashpit for a temple? In a highly religious city? A public tomb is one thing, but I don't think it warrants removing ashpits from the temple itself.
Agreed on this point. AT is a
Agreed on this point. AT is a deeply holy city on Veloth's path. It's a transit point on the way to Necrom. It can have as many ashpits as it wants.
I feel like you were under
I feel like you were under some misconceptions about how tribunal temples are designed.
Tribunal temples are structured in three parts, the upper shrine, the central ground level and the lower tombs. Which also happens to follow the order of importance in worship that being the tribunal, the saints and finally the ancestors. In the case of a canton like Almas Thirr those parts get broken up across multiple cells, IE the shrines in the plaza, the temple in the waistworks and then the tombs down in the canalworks. Within a normal temple there is a single large ashpit next to the saintly shrines that is for use in rituals pertaining to them, however the majority of the middle section is for providing services and accomodation to the priesthood.
The temple as its designed now does not reflect that and as was pointed out is also supposed to be housing various other faction members who are placed around the rest of the complex. The amount of work required to remedy this is regrettable but necessary.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
The cave section on the
The cave section on the Northern Lighthouse is a cool detail. It's utilised in the Vodunius Nuccius questline. There's a neat moment in that questline where you can see Nuccius through the window into the cave section while you're on your way to free him. It's also an echo of the Bloodstone Shrine. If it's well-made cobble I don't think there's a problem with having a little of it here or there.
Agree on both of those points
Agree on both of those points.
The lighthouse cave makes this location memorable and removing it would also mean redoing all the furniture and cluttering in the lighthouse part, because the commander's office would then have to be the cell for the quest. The velothi and cave pieces slot well together, there is no reason to remove it just because we didn't technically get a "velothi-to-moldcave transition"-piece made for it.
And the temple has enough bedrooms. Pilgrims don't stay there, because Almas Thirr is well set up to accomodate them. And Almas Thirr is an incredibly obvious place to leave some bone fragments behind as the rest of the remains get transported to Necrom through it, so it's hard to see how there could be "too many" ashpits there. And removing all but one of them would require putting something else to fill the space, and I don't see how filling it with bunk beds would be an improvement.
These are valid issues that
These are valid issues that need to be addressed before release. With regards to the ashpits, it pretty clearly goes against our established layout for temples. No other temples (in vanilla or TR) have this number of ashpits -- hell some tombs don't even have this number of them. The layout itself is also quite convuluted and confusing to navigate and will need some readjusting to fit a more square shell (or at the least reduce the amount of tentacle-like corridors). Secondly, the indoril garrison cave is a questionable decision and was created against the direction of the design claim and feedback from reviewers. The archery thing is tacky. There is no good reason why the indoril don't properly expand the base instead of leaving it a cave. Not to mention the commander of the place has to use a tiny office located underneath the stairs which should probably have gone where the cave is now and expanded. Yes, it will require work to reclutter some areas. That is a given.
Also wrt the temple beds, they needed to be expanded upon for the temple employees in the other offices who don't have beds. Not pilgrims
Seconding.
Seconding.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
thondin
thondin
Very strongly disagree on the
Very strongly disagree on the lighthouse changes. The lighthouse is a lighthouse, not a garrison, and the Indoril are kindly maintaining it for Almas Thirr as a pretence to have troops close to an influence over the city. This is not a location they own. Major construction work beyond opening up a natural cave would be viewed with a lot of suspicion and concern. The office under the stairs shows just how slapdash their setup is in the lighthouse. It's part of what characterises the location well.
No it just is a reminder the
No it just is a reminder the location makes no logical sense as-is. House Indoril is the house most closely aligned with the temple, with the majority of the Ordinators (who I need not remind you make up the garrison of Almas Thirr) being Indoril. Meanwhile only a stones throw away from Almas Thirr is an entire Indoril Fortress. If the temple decided to entrust the duties of maintaining the lighthouse to the Indoril, then the Indoril choosing to expand said lighthouse for whatever reason would be viewed as above suspicion. If you mean from the Hlaalu.... the Hlaalu straight up built a line of towers along the river, they could hemm and haw but wouldnt be getting a casus belli out of this.
Then again why would the temple choose to have House Indoril maintain the lighthouse in the first place when there is no shortage of volunteers from the temple itself?
Eitherway the cave breaks standards and is illogical, so will be changed.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
No, it won't. The cobbling is
No, it won't.
The cobbling is tasteful. It tells the story of this location well. If the cave is replaced with a Velothi set room, then it's literally just another Morrowind building with an oversize basement.
As a person who has seen and
As a person who has seen and reviewed tasteful cobbling, this aint it, moreover the "story" your outliining is still illogical something just saying "no" doesnt change.
If you think that when the lighthouse is being fixed it should instead have a normal sized basement to accomdate the indoril, that is reasonble.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
The Indoril having taken over
The Indoril having taken over the lighthouse is a recent thing, as is made abundantly clear in dialogue. Therefore (unless we assume the cave was dug into before the Indoril even arrived, which is a possible reading, but one that would complicate things even further) the excavation is very recent. The pickaxes are literally still there. "Why would they leave it like that" - who says they are?
Whether your headcanon is that this cave will be turned into a proper, walled, velothi-set garrison captain's office in the near future (when the game is over) or not, the salient point is that right now it both makes sense logically (Indoril just moved in. They are working on expanding.) and greatly aids the characterisation of this location, cramped office space and all ((Indoril just moved in. They are in need of expanding.).
They are expanding so much
They are expanding so much that they settled for placing com style planks and some archery butts at one end just to add some crates and barrels that they need for? What exactly? Not seeing wood and coal here, so it apparently wasnt the lighthouse keeping that made the space difficult. (I am seeing Luminous Russula, which tells me exactly how much thought went into making this cave, that is to say, none.)
Also cramped office space? I see fact that someone cobbled an under-stair space and shoved the desk and npc down there but I also see a perfectly usable spot on the top floor which would then leave the under stair space free for storage of the relevent materials without even needing to make the space bigger.
Now if you, unlike Pralec, are trying to suggest that the Indoril are activly tunneling to try and create a secret base..... see part about not making sense given the proximity of Roa Dyr and widespread sympathy for the Indoril within the temple itself.
Again, no logic to the reasoning and you helped point out a few extra errors with the int into the bargain.
Edit: And it has a Hlaalu Kiln.... someone edited this lightouse and made it worse
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
Individual items being used
Individual items being used wrong is irrespective of the general cave concept. No one minds a "switch out the kiln and the mushrooms"-change. The list is full of smaller changes like that, this is the only one that aims to change the character of an int.
There being a second possible office spot on the top floor is true, but that one's also right next to the entrance and doesn't have a door. So it's not hard to see why the commanding officer would prefer a more cramped but also more private workstation. In any case, this is getting into the weeds of analysing character motivations, something almost no player will do. What matters is the impression of "recent move" and "doesn't quite fit in" they get from meeting her. Someone who thinks about this long enough to ponder why she isn't using the writing desk/storage cupboard upstairs will probably also come to the same "oh, it's because it's so out in the open, while the downstairs is an actual room"-explanation I just did. And someone who doesn't think about it... doesn't.
Nope, not suggesting any "secret base". Not necessary for this to make sense. I mean, they probably didn't proudly tell everyone about it, but obviously the AT Temple would know, and locals probably saw them hauling rocks, or even got hired to do it.
Uh huh, so the character your
Uh huh, so the character your trying to convey is they only recently arrived... with a fully cluttered tower and a cave thats had platforms, pillars and a huge amount of supplies fitted in.
Yeah no, if you want to convey the character you claim is important then the cave is activly detrimental.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
Decide whether your objection
Decide whether your objection is "Why haven't they built a proper room yet?!" or "How did they have time to fit in temporary structures?!" instead of flip-flopping between the two according to what you think scores you an argument right now.
Why would I choose, if they
Why would I choose, if they've been around for any length of time the cave is bad conceptually. If they've only just arrived the cave is bad in implimentation. In either case, its bad.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
Kill the cave. It's silly for
Kill the cave. It's silly for a lighthouse. Agreed, it doesn't make sense given that Roa Dyr is close.
It's not happening. It
It's not happening. It contributes to the character of the location. Revane's already explained that well.
As I mentioned previously, the cave section is also relevant to a quest. Don't go breaking shit less than a month before we intend to release.
Revane has actually made it
Revane has actually made it abundantly clear how bad an idea the cave is.
And given the lack of objects in the cave I cant see anything that could be badly broken, beyond needing to rewrite one or two lines of dialouge.
Oh and thats four senior interior reviewers saying the caves bad.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
The cave (and general tower
The cave (and general tower setup) is the relevant "object" in question. It's obviously not any individual thing in it that matters.
Are those the same "senior interior reviewers" who opened the refitting claim, reviewed the refitting claim, merged the refitting claim, and now suddenly decided that right as Andaram is int complete and enters pre-release phase they want to quickly redo this one location and sneak it in via a bug report almost no one reads? Or are those different people.
Okay so if nothing in it
Okay so if nothing in it matters and it just the Indoril presence itself subject to a quest.... against doesnt sound like something a few dialouge tweaks cant fix.
As to the other comment, yes, it is infact different people with the exception of the merging and opening: https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/claims/almas-thirr-redo-19-indoril-garrison I am not sure how this is relevent, but I am always glad to keep other members informed, much like how making a note on the bug tracker and the fix that will be logged via the browser.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
People have tried to explain
People have tried to explain the storytelling purposes of this recent cave expansion and the sub-par garrison commander office to you multiple times. If your only response keeps being "nuh uh, what you say actually means the opposite of what you think it means" this isn't going to go anywhere. You can agree or disagree, or think that the "technically cobble because there is no purpose-built transition piece, so should be removed"-sentiment outweighs the narrative implications, but you seem to be unwilling to even accept that it has narrative implications. And that this decision is not just down to "senior int reviewers".
This int was made, reviewed and implemented, including quest and NPCing implementation. The onus to proof why this is such a travesty that it has to be quickly axed to force the change into the Andaram release is on you. A sensible compromise would be to exclude it from the list of (mostly) uncontroversial changes outlined above and leave this open for future discussion and changes, and in a place not just people who browse bugfixes see. It's not like anything in TR is ever final.
I have acknowleged the
I have acknowleged the narrative implications, however neither you or pralec have made a consitent or logical argument for why this quest needs a badly made interior to function, and indeed have only highlighted that the interior has more issues than "just" cobbling.
As to onus of proof, four vs two is a majority even ignoring the relevent postions, now if other seniors on discord deem that the issue should be pushed to the post-release fixes that is there perogative, however right here, I dont see any need for compromise.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
No, we've made perfectly good
No, we've made perfectly good explanations, you just aren't listening. The fact that you think the lack of objects in the cave is somehow proof of its quest irrelevance demonstrates this. It's relevant to the Vodunius Nuccius quest. Revane makes a perfectly good argument, which is to leave this until after the release instead of trying to brute-force it in right before release.
I have listened and refuted
I have listened and refuted each argument, you meanwhile have just said "no" several times and made vage allusions to the cave beeing needed without clearly explaining why or how, just saying which quest is means nothing.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
You haven't refuted arguments
You haven't refuted arguments, you've shared your opinion and treated it as fact.
Vodunius Nuccius is positioncelled to a specific location in that cell during the quest. Moreover, there is a moment when the player comes into the lighthouse looking for him where they can see him through the window. It contributes to the pathos of the moment, to see him from afar in that dingy cave without his shoes.
Ah he finally elaborates what
Ah he finally elaborates what he actually wants. You can make rooms in the velothi set with holes to look through quite easily (its actualy supported by vanillas peices without needing to cobble at all), we can add cobwebs, broken clutter and some dripping effects to make it paticularly nasty if thats the desired effect. Could have skipped straight to that without the other nonsense.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
No thanks :)
No thanks :)
Ah well, if you "don't see
Ah well, if you "don't see any need for compromise" then I guess we have a meeting topic.
Ah yes, delay the issue
Ah yes, delay the issue waiting on a meeting holding up the release longer so that you can be told the same thing by more people later, good use of time.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
Oh I said nothing about
Oh I said nothing about "holding up the release".
I know that sounded cool in
I know that sounded cool in your head, but if you threaten to try dragging things out be prepared for people to call your bluff.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
What's the bluff? It's an
What's the bluff?
It's an evidently controversial issue, and your response was to proudly proclaim that there's not going to be a compromise, you don't even want to defer it to a possible later hotfix addition. So it'll need to be discussed with all interested devs. If that happens quickly, it'll happen quickly. It's not like I can/want to "drag it out" beyond that.
You didn't seriously believe that this eleventh-hour "let's suddenly make changes to all those ints we just refitted and reviewed" would be critical for the release, right?
"Controversial", do you
"Controversial", do you understand how a majority works youngling? Just shouting loudest doesnt mean anything (I know, its my tactic of choice), you and Pralec are the only ones disagreeing with this.
As to the other... yes, because this is bugfixing to ensure that we dont release with sub-bar content like we had to with DoD.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
Revane and I make up 1/3 of
Revane and I make up 1/3 of this conversation. Last I checked TR didn't run on Majority Rules.
Ah, and another thing: The
Ah, and another thing: The ruined books in the office of recording feature into a quest (not mechanically, but for flavour).
ye there was a decision not
ye there was a decision not to generally use them in other ints, but I think for this instance they make sense
I'm gonna start work on the
My to do:
Gospel hunting and doing a general pass for minor changes eg greenlighting, setmixxing, lighting adjustments, cobbles etc.
After that I'll aim to do the canalworks public tomb (this has flora changes so I want to wait till my flora swaps are merged first). I'll look at the monastery of St. Veloth but I think that may be more of a larger brush up (can at least aim to deal with greenlights etc pre release).
The Northern Lightouse can be discussed further
What is this bullshit? I see
What is this bullshit? I see 4 different int reviewers agreeing on something that is about int standards. Why 2 questers feel the need to be uppity about this is beyond me. When there's a consensus among int reviewers about int matters, just stand the fuck aside and let them handle it. Jesus christ. Giving questers the full run of the house in every department defying their respective reviewers is how we end up with standardless crap. Sure it was passed through the first time, but it's being reevaluated and I'm not seeing a single dissenting int reviewer opinion here. You two, revane and pralec, are the only ones making this difficult. Be upset about it if you want, but let int reviewers do their jobs.
don't worry mark. With the
don't worry mark. With the resistance given. Asking for the int to be killed....."Its Not Happening!". We mere mortals cannot understand the goodness of this cobble fest.
"Giving questers the full run
"Giving questers the full run of the house"
Yeah, right. As if that's what's happening or what anyone is trying to make happen. Nice gas you're pouring on the fire there.
That's not how a collaborative project works. Every implementation affects the project, and that means it's everyone's business. And we've tried to argue why this issue matters for reasons of storytelling multiple times (and you're free to disagree, but don't go "This is purely an interior issue. Nothing more. None of your business. Shut up.")
Do you think just because something happens in the render window the Council of Interior Reviewers gets final say on project decisions? Reviewers exist to make calls, because otherwise nothing would ever get done, but if there is disagreement on those decisions or intentions, other dev's opinions are just as valid as yours, no matter how much this annoys you. In 99% of cases this goes smoothly, and as should be expected sometimes it doesn't. If once in a while someone disagrees with you that doesn't make them uppity, and sure as fuck doesn't make them want to have "full run of the house".
You are the one trying to roleplay some bizarre interdepartmental rivalry here, and I am doing my darndest to not stoop to that. Otherwise I would point out how insane it would be if quest reviewers decreed narrative and worldbuilding decisions the way you apparently demand for int reviewers and location design. Oops, too late I guess.
You have to see that what
You have to see that what made people mad is pralec saying "its not happening". That was the first "shut up and do what I say" shot fired. Are you going to call pralec out on that behaviour? Because it escalted things.
Hey, I do agree that it was a
Hey, I do agree that it was a bit needlessly confrontational at that point in the conversation.
Only a tiny bit though, considering it was a response to "Eitherway the cave breaks standards and is illogical, so will be changed."
If people state their opinions as foregone conclusions, turns out other people might respond in kind.
You'll notice that I began by
You'll notice that I began by expressing my opinion as a preference that the lighthouse not be changed, and explained why I didn't think it should be. It was Vern (big surprise) who used absolutist language about what will or won't be happening. It's all there if you scroll up.
Apologies for my language, by
Apologies for my language, by "questers" i most certainly just refer to you two. There is no interdepartmental rivalry. There is only you two obstructing a concensus among int reviewers.
I don't even care about this one thing, I'm arguing on principle. I'll argue all day for something I think should happen that's quest related, but if literally no quest reviewer is willing to back me up on it then I concede the point. It's not that each department is completely separate, but I trust each department's authority. You need to do the same here. If not a single int reviewer is siding with you then there's no discussion. Sorry.
I somewhat care about this
I somewhat care about this one thing, but by now it's definitely been made about the principle, yeah. And my point remains that this is not solely an "interior issue". It's not a question of "trusting the department" (and I don't particularly care for lumping people into departments anyway, I trust individuals), it's about seeing issues with a proposed change and the storytelling implications it has. Well, and by now it's also firmly about the dismissive reaction to criticism of Interior Reviewer Decrees™ and the attempt to bring in a "what reviewers say goes" dictate now that "what seniors say goes" is being phased out.
And it sucks that this is happening in the comment section of a bug report instead of on discord where every other project related conversation is taking place. Here, by the nature of how this was handled, it's mostly only on the radar of the people who wrote this "bug report". (Mind you, it's entirely possible that there would be broad agreement with you on discord too, I'm not trying to claim that there is some kind of unaware majority behind me.)
It's never been about
It's never been about seniority, clearly you feel that it pertains due to your recent dark-greening, and by all means bring this up in discord -- I assure you that there are people there who will gladly defer to those who work in this department, have seen both good and bad cobble and can tell you the difference. Not to mention have done actual int work to not just obtain their badge but also work up to being a reviewer THEN a senior. We are not flexing any kind of authority and frankly I think we have entertained your ideas quite graciously. But now its time to step aside and let us handle things. Just like how a quester would likely be annoyed if an interior reviewer or exterior reviewer were to block development of a quest or the refurbishment of an old quest due to nostalgia reasons. Thats not how we handle things and for a good reason.
This isn't just an interior
This isn't just an interior decision. It's also a quest decision, because that location has been incorporated into Almas Thirr's dialogue and quests.
Also pretty ridiculous to suggest that you've all been very gracious on this. There's been absolutely no offer of compromise, no suggestion of how we can work together on this. Just "daddy knows best, so this is happening."
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