The slaves work the egg mines, so the artisans and craftsmer can serve the tower’s needs comfortably. Besides harvesting eggs at their own peril, slaves probably get trained as servants and are used as live experimental subjects.
I really like that! Especially what you say about the degree to which Mouths actually speak for their masters:
“Some mouths may genuinly “speak for” what they believe their masters might want to achieve, but many in the Parliament of Bugs simply speak for themselves.”
The way I see it this could open up some interesting questlines. Two of the major themes guiding the depiction of Telvanni in the game is knowledge and power. Telvanni wizards are constantly amassing power in the pursuit of knowledge, and constantly applying knowledge in their pursuit of power. It seems to me, however, that to the wizards that personal pursuit of knowledge is a goal in itself, and that the pursuit of power is only meaningful in the personal pursuit of knowledge.
I can imagine an ambitious Telvanni that rejects this view. Who sees power, any kind of power, as the only legitimate goal, and knowledge as valuable only in so far as it increases it. To such a person the position as a mouth might proove an incredibly powerful position from which he or she can can attempt to manipulate political events to their favor. To such a person the wizards, with their vane scheming and striving for more and more esoteric knowledge, are nothing but tools to further their own political ends.
How do you reconcile the “special training” Fast Eddie mentions with it just being a teleport system?
I find the Dreamsleeve both more convenient for storytelling, more in line with MW-era lore Tamriel (as Imperial clerks were already noted to use the Dreamsleeve to communicate), and more interesting than the rather banal teleportation.
What’s easier for a master wizard than to shoot a quick “bring me 5 scrolls of toad jumping asap” with their mind, instead of writing it down on a scroll and waiting for the Mouth to pop in on their daily routine? I’m all for practical solutions, but this seems to me just a way to circumvent the Dreamsleeve while the practical arrangement this provides falls to the wayside.
Telepathy is already a concept in Daggerfall, the dreamsleeve is simply their means. As a countermeasure against eavesdropping, it also explains why the Mouths are trained. Think of the subliminal mayhem ensuing if the Masters communicated directly; each spying on their peers’ communications, planting ideas where they don't belong. A third party could minimize that.
Could you point to where Fast Eddie mentions some kind of special training? I’ve gone throug the dialogue between him and the protagonist in Vanilla, but I can’t seem to find it. It is neither mentioned in the conversations with Aryon related to the quest of retrieving Eddie as a mouth. Aryon describes him as a promising Telvanni, but mentions nothing about some special training. Also, once you get Fast Eddie, in order to give him chores you actually have to go to Sadrith Mora and talk to him.
Could you point to where Fast Eddie mentions some kind of special training? I’ve gone throug the dialogue between him and the protagonist in Vanilla, but I can’t seem to find it. It is neither mentioned in the conversations with Aryon related to the quest of retrieving Eddie as a mouth. Aryon describes him as a promising Telvanni, but mentions nothing about some special training. Also, once you get Fast Eddie, in order to give him chores you actually have to go to Sadrith Mora and talk to him.
I stand corrected.
He mentions that his career was stopped in its tracks and he was waiting to be a mouth for years, but nothing about special training. This is pretty embarassing, it might have been something from one of LGNPC mods or thereabout which I remember.
Apologies and I withdraw that argument (I still do like the Dreamsleeve better than teleportation for the other reasons I cited and would like to point out that having to walk to the Council Hall seems more a gameplay limitation than anything, as it’s certainly possible to create telepathy with Fast Eddie via modding).
Because we already know telepathy’s a thing from character generation, why not stick with that? The way I see it, the dreamsleeve is the mechanism, which doesn't need to be explored any deeper than Dwemeri mechanics. At a mundane level, it's just another facet of dealings between wizards, where the Mouths are these quasi Mentats. I like it, anyway...
Ì don’t think we are disagreeing, other than you want to avoid pinning it on the Dreamsleeve design-wise. Which I don’t understand, imo you should quantify how tradecraft works, even if it is magical tradecraft.
The Dwemer are in contrast long dead, so it doesn’t matter, but the Telvanni (and the Imperial clerks) are alive and well.
Oh, I don't disagree at all. I'm only trying to make the point telepathy’s there; whether or not we get to exploit the mechanics of the dreamsleeve, I take my leave. I don't know how much of that has been conceptualized and implemented. :)
I just didn't want to see a good idea axed, because no one was certain of the dreamsleeve’s use.
So I don’t want to argue against the notion of a telepathic link between mouths and their masters in itself. I actually think it is an interesting idea. My biggest problem is that it is an answer to a problem that is not recognized in vanilla. To institute this as the general way mouths communicate with their masters on the mainland will therefore inevitably raise the question why it is not used on Vardenfel.
If people still wish to explore this idea I would therefore rather suggest that it is presented as a new experimental form of magic, or an old mystic technique known only by a very few wizards. I still think it is a good idea that unfortunately is making too much disrupton to the original content, but that way you could at least minimize it.
So I don’t want to argue against the notion of a telepathic link between mouths and their masters in itself. I actually think it is an interesting idea. My biggest problem is that it is an answer to a problem that is not recognized in vanilla. To institute this as the general way mouths communicate with their masters on the mainland will therefore inevitably raise the question why it is not used on Vardenfel.
If people still wish to explore this idea I would therefore rather suggest that it is presented as a new experimental form of magic, or an old mystic technique known only by a very few wizards. I still think it is a good idea that unfortunately is making too much disrupton to the original content, but that way you could at least minimize it.
Perhaps it is Dagoth Ur’s influence that keeps them from using the Dreamsleeve on Vvardenfell? I imagine Dagoth Ur might use a similar mechanism to communicate with his followers, and crossing the streams with a mad god like that is probably bad juju.
But, that’s a bit of a kludge...I’d instead suggest maybe only some Mouths are trained with this? Those belonging to the most powerful Telvanni lords. Or as a type of magic that’s still new or otherwise fraught with dangers.
Isn’t a mouth hired by their master in order to speak for them so they don’t have to? if Telvanni masters could speak telepathically then couldn’t they skip the middleman and just speak master to master without the mouth? The mouth as I see it is a trusted speaker for the master to deal with inner house workings and mundaine day to day stuff, so that the masters can bury themselves in books a experiments. That stuff is beyond them and they probably don’t care about any of it. I mean if I was an all powerful wizard I sure wouldn’t. If I was someone whos far away from all powerful or maybe could not ever expect to acheive all powerful, then I’d want power some other way withinthe house. Lets face it, many Telvanni may not even be magically inclined. Also, I imagine that masters are masters because they are not only magically inclined but gifted beyond what many will acheive. When I think of my mouth Fast Eddy I don’t think potential all powerful wizard. I think this is a guy who is just the shady politician type person I need to represent my interests while I do my own thing.
Besides convenience, they also choose mouths as a measure against eavesdropping. If the wizards communicated directly, telepathy would reveal means and motives best kept hidden. That's my guess.
In total, I think this is almost too complicated a thought construct for such a topic. The dreamsleeve works for telepathy, and it is “canonically” used by Imperial clerks and the Elder Council for that very same purpose, so it’s pretty sensible to believe that the Telvanni use it too. IMO.
Of course, at the same time I have to acknowledge that the Dreamsleeve mechanics were largely written down after Morrowind, and it only became popular after Oblivion when metagnosticism began its long and terrible journey.
Morrowind was really good about incorporating lore, but this one happened largely after, so it would be natural for the game to gloss over mechanics (as it is prone to do, it never went into depth as much as we do here, nevermind /r/teslore and the Whirling Schools). Morrowind shouldn’t be inviolatable in this regard, whether we in the long run agree on teleportation or Dreamsleeve telepathy/memospores. Just that we don’t need to invent a reason why any of that was ever mentioned in vanilla, and we shouldn’t feel compelled to spell out anything in TR itself aside from “everybody knows this” assumed background infos. Just so that we can agree on a determinator so that the things we create don’t actively contradict each other.
I agree that the original Morrowind should not be inviolatable, but I think we ought to aim towards a game that allows for the most coherent storytelling possible. This means that we will have to keep an eye to what kind of restrictions have been assumed within already existing storylines. My fear is that by introducing a whole new way of communicating between wizard and the mouths, we will end up creating an unnecessary dissonance between the original and the expanded storyline. You might argue that we don’t have to justify every expansion to this storyline, which is an argument that I am generally sympathetic to. In terms of the role of the mouth, however, it is my opinion that it plays such a large role in the already existing storyline that to introduce entierly new mechanics inevitably starts begging the question.
I am not completely opposed to introducing this into the our expansion of the original Telvanni storyline, however. Maybe our main character even invents this mode of communication?
Perhaps it is Dagoth Ur’s influence that keeps them from using the Dreamsleeve on Vvardenfell? I imagine Dagoth Ur might use a similar mechanism to communicate with his followers, and crossing the streams with a mad god like that is probably bad juju.
There’s something to this. I think you’ll find this post to be relevant. Arguably, those creepy dreams Dagoth Ur sends you are a kind of dreamsleeve transmission.
It might be worthwile to nail down what te dreamsleeve is exactly: an afterlife hologram soul recycler, plus the place where people go when they dream. Imperial clerks can use it to send and receive messages (or store them for later in a memospore) by keeping part of their mind in a meditative half-sleeping state, requiring constant concentration.
Perhaps it would make more sense if dreamsleeve transmissions are a one-way thing? Masters can forcefully inserts messages in the mind of their mouths, but not the other way. It could also be that not all Telvanni lords have mastered this art: after all, they are not known for sharing secrets with each other. Wasn’t part of the lore behind the Vvardenfell Telvanni that they embodied the younger, pro-active branch of the house? Perhaps not all of them had access to these secrets.
That is a really interesting idea. I most definitetly like the idea of the dreamsleeve being a one way means of communication. The master might transplant a vision, a cryptic message, or maybe even a simple image, which it is up to the mouth to interpret. I am not sure if this is what exactly you had in mind, but hear me out: The mind does not recieve readymade information about the world in any form. All information recieved by us is structured in relation to our own subjective spatio-temporal frame of reference. We are, one could say, already tuned to capturing information about the world around us. To insert information into another person through the dream state would for this reason involve quite a bit of calibration on both parties. The information needs to be sent in a way that is processable by the reciever, and the reciever needs to make themselves receptive to the information in the form it is sent. In the physical world we are already tuned toward capturing meaning through the sensory receptio of physical constancies in the environment. We are thus provided with a common world that we can communicate about. But in the case of our dreams, things are very much in flux. For example, often if you look at a street number in a dream it can change from one look, to the next. This makes communication through such a dreamstate extreemly difficult, because it is not helped by the common constancy of mundus the reciever needs to have a way of distinguishing the meaning and order recieved from the meaning and order that they are meant to provide. The sender might therefore want to send fairly simple, or symbolic messages through the dreamsleeve that is easier to recieve, but that consequtively demands quite a bit of interpretation on behalf of the reciever.
I also think it makes sense for this to be used by some of the Telvanni, but not all, Infragris. The Vvardenfell Telvanni being a more expansionist and pro-active part of the Telvanni faction. This way we expand upon the main plot without contradicting it.
I would like to share one worry, however. One thing I wish we could focus more on is what kind of stories we want to tell thorugh introducing new features to the game, and how it fits with the already existing themes of house Telvanni. I fear that if we don’t we will end up having a bunch of cool stuff, but stripped of any aparent depth or meaning. It will feel more like a themepark than a world. I realize that this is a brain storming thread, but at the same time I think it is good to try to also reflect on how we imagine this as a game experience.
Taking this into consideration I have a two questions that I think we ought to discuss about the introduction of dreamsleeve:
What kinds of stories does this new thing open up to us, and how do they fit with the themes explored in house Telvanni storylines?
How do we imagine that the game mechanics of dreamsleeve is supposed to work, and how will it change the gameplay? Will the gamer be able to learn it? Will the gamer ever be contacted through dreamsleeve?
1. Becoming Aryon’s Mouth meant nothing. We were given a paralyze staff, and that was it. Bummer.
2. For example, when arguing the merits or dangers of Aryon’s philosophy, we receive memos from our sponsor. They could update over the screen as monologue bubbles, in the vein of the Sharmat dreams. After each phase of the debate, we ‘rest’ to contact our sponsor.
Some Ideas that me and Vern came up with on Discord:
Have Bound Stations in Port Telvannis for (If someone has high enough conjuration skill) people to summon an atronach to guide them through the city, as the locals are reluctant to give directions for anything. After telling the Atronach which important location they need to get to, the Daedra will lead you there, and dissapear once the player has reached their destination. Maybe have some NPC's in the city (not important ones) have a follow script to atronachs with a large AI wander range, to show that it isn't just the player doing it. -
Have a lot of hanging Laterns from the bottom of the Large Mushrooms to give colour in the city, and to light up the place during night time. Could be quite Beautiful. - Concept art for the Telvanni Towers Should definitly be used for Towers in port Telvannis. Such as the Large Parasol Mushrooms Stacked on top of each other.
- Maybe having Telvanni Experiments walking aorund the place, or have Daedra Roaming the city that are non hostile
- Hospitality Papers for the City. And ones that you actually need to use the services....unlike vanilla sadrith mora.
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Dust Adepts need to be a thing. Ashlands are planned for Telvannis Redo, and hopefully this will make the Adepts a reality, instead of just having their helms laying around the place with no groups of dunmer to associate them with. Have them shepard large Guar herds in the Ashlands and in the grazeland parts of TR when the redo happens. Where ever these grazeland areas end up being, hopefully not very big and only in a specific area. -
Boethiah Spine should be Large Mountains with Lava Pools and part ashland. It should represent Boethiah, as a test for the dunmer living there, as Boethiah is Cruel by nature, but fair to those that are strong enough to withstand the harsh conditions. Maybe this is where the hive can end up being? Nestled between the Mountains somewhere in the region. Have the hive be the hub for the Dust Adepts? - Telvannis Redo should incorporate all the original MW Concepts that never got used in the rest of the Province, hence the Hive and Dust Adepts I mentioned before. Skyport should be in Dres Lands, but if it gets cut from there, should be in Telvannis. These concepts would make the place so interesting and would give it the wow factor that the Telvanni lands need.
Infrastructure is generally lacking in Telvannis. The mages keep to their towers, the Velothi to their villages. I don't think dust adepts should be a distinct group, but simply travellers, mercenaries and caravaners who traverse the untamed wasteland between the isolated spots of civilization.
As far as Boethiah's Spine is concerned, whatever is done to it I don't think it should be thought of as a region but rather a geographical feature and border between regions. Telvannis is narrow and I think more can be done with it. This doesn't affect the above ideas, just a note on my intentions there.
Why suggested a cool idea. A town that is sea level that requires all the residence to water walk to get around. Rather than the usual levitation. Llothanis was suggested to be such a place for this.
I would like to propose a rethinking of some Telvanni things, and Vahn in particular. I made this gridmap proposal, with notes below.
The general idea is to turn the Isles from a boring Sheogorad clone into a vibrant and interesting place that lives up to the standards of modern TR, both in region uniqueness and quest/settlement density.
Rather than being a one-tower city, Port Telvannis in this scenario sprung up between the oldest Telvanni towers as a trading center and collective port. The Parliament of Bugs exists there as it does currently. Because of this age-old situation of rivalry between adjacent lords, Port Telvannis is a hub of intrigue and treachery, as each of the nearby lords seeks to exert control of both the city and House Telvanni at large.
Because the Archmagister of the Telvanni typically emerges from one of the Vahn towers, the lords who fail to attain that title are often violently purged by the victor when power struggles occur. Currently, all three of the other Port Telvannis towers are held by weak leaders without Council seats, thanks to Dral's efforts to preempt threats to his control of the capital.
The towers surrounding Port Telvannis are old. They are divided from the city proper - and from each other - by massive walls of sadrith, gargantuan shell fragments, and even huge, mysterious bones. Each is an overgrown, underpopulated fortress that jealously guards piles of treasure in ancient vaults. Since each of the four towers has been home to an Archmagister at least once in Telvanni history, none is especially greater than the rest, though Tel Thenim saw an extra boost recently.
The Telvanni Isles Region is a rainy, windy place that occasionally even sees snow. Throughout the unsettled interiors and along the coastlines of the islands, mushroom forests grow tightly all the way into the water. On Vahn itself, the plantations at Tel Sadas continue to serve as a source of large work insects, but wild striders can be found between the isles.
Notes on the Isles' towers:
Tel Sadas - Expanded Sadas Plantation, and now a true tower. Angon Sadas is a loyal and old ally of Archmagister Dral.
Tel Parran - Former home of the most recent Archmagister before Dral, Eranil (Parran). Though she died nearly thirty years ago, the current lord, Ulvor Parran, still believes he is owed a seat on the council on account of his mother's former status. Ulvor, however, is a bit of an idiot, and has been a convenient stooge for Dral until Dral's recent disappearance. Tel Parran sits half-suspended above the sea, both for protection from the other towers and for dramatic effect.
Tel Ranol - Seat of Theldis Ledethi, a jealous, vicious old mage who was rewarded for his strong support of a now-dead Dral rival with demotion off the Council. Theldis hates Dral, but can't do anything about his rulership without supporting Gothren, whom he hates even more. Tel Ranol is built into the side of the hills that bisect Vahn, and much of the tower is underground.
Tel Thenim - Currently, the largest Telvanni tower, anywhere, and seat of Archmagister Dral. Tel Thenim is surrounded by an ancient wall made from shells of some long-dead Padomaic monstrosities, and unlike the other towers, keeps its treasures suspended in its huge parasol over the city, rather than underground in vaults.
Tel Vinra - Home of Elmavera Beralan, a scared young wizard who abruptly seized the ancient tower when her predecessor was murdered. While she did not in fact kill Tel Vinra's former master, the idea that she did lends Elmavera a reputation that's currently concealing Tel Vinra's weaknesses. Tel Vinra itself is a spiraling tower of thinner-than-typical sadrith that's actually taller than Tel Thenim (something its residents are quite proud of).
Tel Darys - No change, I like this tower a lot
Tel Givus and Tel Salvelas - A pair of recently-grown, intertwined towers on the eastern coast of Vahn. Their lords are Lilru Givus and Avodol Ulelian, a pair of up-and-coming Wizards who have so far successfully stayed out of internal Telvanni politics. Though they won't admit anything so compromising to curious outsiders, they are also in love.
Tel Inan - Tel Inan sits on Althoa Olanar, the easternmost of the Telvanni Isles. Althoa and Tel Inan are were the home of Suryl Gilarys, an eccentric mage who reclaimed the abandoned tower after rumors emerged that it sat on a Chimeri-quey treasure hoard. She never found the treasure, but Suryl keeps kept looking, and has employed one of the no'Quey to serve as an assistant. (I re-appropriated Olanar to serve as the resting place for King Orgnum's Coffer. It's abandoned.)
The Gothren problem I don't think TR should just demote Gothren to Wizard, as the current planning document suggests. Instead, I think Gothren - aware of the traditional Vahn stranglehold on Telvanni leadership, but lacking mainland support - should be attempting to break House Telvanni in two. Knowing Dral is absent, he is trying to establishing a pseudo-autonomous coalition of Vvardenfell lords run out of Sadrith Mora under his leadership. Here's how I'd handle each of the Vvardenfell lords:
Neloth tolerates Gothren's little plot, since he gets to host the Sadrith Mora council and thinks that with Dral potentially permanently detached from mortal affairs, there are unlikely to be consequences. Neloth is a survivor, and thinks he's picking the winning side.
Aryon was only a Wizard under mainland rules, but Gothren offered him a promotion to fill seats at Sadrith Mora. Aryon knows, however, that he's being set up to take the blame should the project fail (Imperial sympathies and whatnot), thus his dislike for Gothren.
Therana is insane, and got kicked off the mainland Council just like Narrusa Darythi did. When Gothren needed Masters for his council, her staff saw the opportunity to restore her status.
Dratha sends Mouths to both Port Telvannis and Sadrith Mora, assuring each that they have her full support.
Oh, and because I couldn't think of another place to slip this in: we should make the Telvanni Library and the Hive the same thing. Books in the basement, bugs above. Books n' Bugs. Very fun.
Below is a listing of the ranks in the revised House Telvanni I am proposing:
I. Archmagister Leader of House Telvanni and recognized head of the House.
Dral (Tel Thenim/Port Telvannis)
II. Magister A person who claims to be the head of the House.
Gothren (Tel Aruhn)*
III. Master (Wizard) The Parliament of Bugs, a “rank” that loosely correlates to the House Councillors of other houses, demonstrates holder of title has attained mastery in a particular art or knowledge, and is recognized by peers.
I'm mostly restating stuff I've said on Discord, but for once am sensibly posting it on the forums rather than relying entirely on the awesome strength of Discord's search functionality.
Vahn and Port Telvannis
I definitely agree that Vahn as it is now is a boring Sheogorad clone and needs to change. That said, my direction is almost the opposite; to me, the original Telvanni concept art and descriptions with stuff like dust adepts (which as I've said before I see as a sort of class/occupation and not as an organization or culture as has been suggested before) always gave me the impression more of Telvanni emerging from a wasteland than a sadrith jungle, and my general concepts for Vahn grew from that premise. I think the island itself should be mostly flat dusty wasteland with twisted flora, dangerous fauna such as aggressive netch variants, a few slaves who escaped the vast Port Telvannis slave markets but cannot escape the island, and a few escaped Telvanni experiments, some recent and others ancient.
vanilla concept art
Port Telvannis is pretty much the only settlement/habitation on Vahn (I wouldn't rule out one or two other coastal towers, but would prefer them to be on adjacent islands rather than Vahn itself). It was the nucleus of House Telvanni, where wizard-scholars who went into self-exile after refusing to take part in the War of the First Council convened and formed the house. The location of their convention, and core of Port Telvannis, is an ancient Velothi tower wedged between two coastal cliffs. Tel Thenim grew around and above the tower, and the rest of Port Telvannis grew out towards the waterside, entirely covering that stretch of coastline.
general placement (though not appearance) of Port Telvannis
In the opposite direction, going inland from the gap in the cliffs, stretch the vast slave (and other wares, but the slaves dominate) markets of Port Telvannis, fanning out from Tel Thenim. Overseers on siltstriders stalk between the slave pits with a virtually unobstructed view across the island interior.
vanilla concept art
Few Telvanni wizards chose to remain in Port Telvannis. Telvanni do not enjoy each others' company, and while Port Telvannis may have once been the site of vicious power-struggles the powerful mage-lords have long since flown the coop and built their own towers where they would not be unduly bothered. The main population of the city are the slaves, mouths and other retainers and bureaucrats, as well as simple Velothi.
Telvanni mage-lord from the 1st PGE
Port Telvannis does have towers, but these are no longer inhabited by powerful mage-lords. The lower parts of the towers have generally been repurposed by the local population in any number of ways, while the upper parts have often been neglected and could act a bit more like dungeons. Some might still contain the signs of the power-struggles that cleared the tower, perhaps even the husk of the Telvanni master who had met his end there at the hands of some forgotten rival. Many of the towers would be large and oddly shaped, with effectively new towers sprouting out of them before being likewise abandoned.
Impression of a dead mage-lord in a fallen tower
Tel Thenim itself has gained a symbolic identity as the seat of the Archmagister. While some Archmagisters may never have stepped foot in Tel Thenim or, for that matter, Port Telvannis, setting up residence in Tel Thenim would in itself be a way of claiming the seat of Archmagister, and as a result the tower has remained vacant for the powerful wizards capable and ambitious enough to become Archmagister to occupy. The closest concentration of Telvanni mage-lords would be around Gah Sadrith, across the water from Port Telvannis. When Port Telvannis was starting to become too crowded for the Telvanni mage-lords' tastes, Gah Sadrith and its surrounding islands were the first place to which they withdrew. While a few powerful wizards still live there, physical proximity to Port Telvannis is not considered very important to Telvanni mage-lords, who are content to leave parliament matters to their mouths most of the time and have no trouble appearing in Port Telvannis should their physical presence ever be needed.
Dral and the Mage-Lords
I am not against having more towers in general, though as stated prefer if none of the 'active' ones are on Vahn. I do not think Dral should ever have been a particularly politically savvy or active Telvanni, simply a powerful one. At one point (or several) in his long life (which IMO shouldn't be as long as Fyr's, 3000-2000 years seems plenty to me), he decided the title of Archmagister would be useful to him, likely during a power vacuum where there was relatively little risk in taking it. Not being very ambitious, Dral generally didn't bother other Telvanni wizards, and so likewise unambitious Telvanni had no issue leaving him the seat of Archmagister, and to a degree preferred him over more ambitious and as such tedious rivals like Gothren and Rathra. Whenever an ambitious mage has challenged him, Dral has proven powerful enough to deal with them. So Dral has never had much use or interest in allies or stooges. In more general terms, Telvanni are generally too practical to care about stuff like image or making a name of themselves (something that came up on Discord). They don't really care too much about physical territory and tend to only focus on other Telvanni wizards or things (like the Temple and the Empire) that actively bother them when they actively bother them. (That is, most Telvanni wouldn't particularly hate or more to the point care about the Empire and its activities, and would only bother to do something against the Empire if the Empire specifically bothers them). As mentioned on Discord, I see Telvanni expansionism less as them seeking territorial gains (though the Parliament of Bugs is taking advantage of that effect) and more as Telvanni upstarts trying to establish themselves outside the shadow of more powerful mage-lords. As a general comment, the Telvanni library should be retired. If it survives, it should only do so after a thorough reimagining. It's anti-Telvanni in spirit, and I'm not sure whether the core concept behind it is even desirable from a gameplay standpoint.
Gothren and Vvardenfell
I could see Gothren either having the Archmagister rank alongside Dral or having the Magister rank. To me, which we should go with depends on more detailed implementation questions (what our final implementation of the Telvanni hortator quests will be, for instance) than I think we should be concerning ourselves with just yet. I do think Rathra and either Mithras or some other figure should occupy the Magister rank at any rate, that being stated in the vanilla Magister topic to be the title for Telvanni who challenge the authority of the current Archmagister. Given that Dral is missing, it makes sense for there to be a few claimants. Strictly speaking Gothren would be one of them, as Dral still formally carries the title of Archmagister, but if implementation-wise it's better for Gothren to keep his rank it's not an issue to say that he is currently the one acting as Archmagister, and just as he is unable to unseat Dral, Dral has not bothered unseating Gothren, so both can get away with being called Archmagisters. While I'm at it, anyone with the Master rank should have a presence in the Parliament of Bugs in Port Telvannis. The mage-lords around Gothren do not directly need to be his supporters, but the fact that they seek proximity to and challenge him acts as an acknowledgement of his title. Of course, some of his neighbours predate Gothren.
An idea for all Telvanni settlements, but especialy Port Telvannis, having loads of clutter and natural objects hanging and sticking out from roots. Like rocks, stones and crystals hanging and floating from roots. Or bones and insect Shells hanging from roots. Or in general a mix of Telvanni mushroom roots and buildings with Stones and other insectal/other creature body parts.
And something for the slave market, which Gnomey stated earlier, that mounted silt striders patrol the slave pens. Perhaps the market can consist of a large main street (which is is uncommon for the telvanni, but perhaps this can be because of the large scale of the market) with smaller streets spreading out (a main street on ground level, with two leveled root streets on both sides of the main street, looking down on the main street). With the slave market being on these two elevated rootstreets on the sides of the mainroad consisting of elevated slave pens, slave houses and slavepods. And silt striders patrol the main streets, with the elevated streets in looking reach of the siltstrider riders.
Also for Port Telvannis, since House Telvanni is a very individualistic house, have Port Telvannis style very diverse, with each tower and manor being very different and each street having its own style and character. Have all the Telvanni styles and concepts merge into one city.
And for food (production), maybe have some sort of food-harvesters guild(s), like a group of dark elves that search the coasts (in general), especially Azura's coast with small rowboats or canoe's for Saltrice and Marsmerrow. And/or some sort of (semi) nomadic dark elf group that traveles and searches for wickwheat, hackle-lo, and other foods/ingredients on the land.
Here are some thoughts I have on the direction we should go when redoing the Telvannis district. It is a huge post, so be warned. It goes into detail (example quests and all) for the flavor I would like to see in Telvannis.
To preface, I would like to say that I think that the whole Telvannis district should be one of the most high-level locations in Tamriel Rebuilt. Telvanni are powerful, and the region they decided to inhabit is consequently dangerous. The chance to randomly run into danger should be high. Even though immediate dangers that the player doesn’t seek out shouldn’t be excessively life-threatening (such as the local fauna), every cell should convey the idea of hostility and unwelcoming. Second, the concept of Telvanni individualism and anarchy should be conveyed by the individuality of its challenges. Dungeons should all be unique, quests should be weird, and the established culture of the Dunmer should be distorted and perverted where applicable to demonstrate the iconoclastic nature of the Telvanni. I will be leaving out the Ashlands and the Dust Adepts in this post, as I think those ideas have the most attention.
Imperial Settlement
The Imperial settlements should be by far the safest places in the Telvannis region. They recognize the danger of the lands around them, so they all have walls, guards, and easy escape routes that don’t involve land travel (Mages Guild guide, ship) for individuals that may have gotten on the wrong side of local rogue Telvanni, etcetera. This should be underscored by misc quests involving the creeping danger outside the cities.
Example quest: A mage found in a tavern in Firewatch/Helnim is fishing for volunteer subjects for their experiment. The mage says that the experiment would be absolutely harmless and that the player would earn a considerable reward if they accepted. The player can then either volunteer themselves or search for a willing subject in the city, or just say no. If the player volunteers themselves, they are asked to meet the mage in a vacant Dwemer ruin nearby. When the player gets there, the mage brings the player deeper into the ruin--into a chamber they built by connecting the mechanical structures of the ruin with enchanted stuff of their making. The player is put inside a caged device and the mage stands on an enchanted platform. When the experiment starts, the player is hit with various detrimental effects and even shock damage, while the mage is hit with fortify effects (signifying a transfer of life-force). The player then has to escape the contraption and defeat the evil mage before they die.
The quest demonstrates two things: (1) the respect/understanding that even evil wizards have of the fact that Imperial settlements are safe and guarded, through the fact that the mage went through the trouble to look for volunteers instead of just forcibly capturing locals, and (2) that the moment you leave Imperial protection, Telvannis is a dangerous land full of ambitious and sometimes evil people that will pose a challenge for even high-level players.
There could even be Imperial bounties on rogue sorcerers and bandits that have threatened the Imperial settlements in the past, to show that safety is a high priority for Imperials in Telvannis.
Wilderness
Once the player leaves the Imperial settlements in the Telvannis region, all semblance of safety vanishes. The wilderness is unforgiving with eldritch abominations and results of Telvanni-experiments-gone-wrong threatening an unwary player. Many quests around the area should focus on these strange and dangerous elements of Telvannis.
Example quests:
The player encounters a mutant atronach with parts of all elemental atronachs smushed together in a painful way--the result of a Telvanni experiment. The atronach complains that his existence is excruciating (the pain from having fire, ice, and electricity all together, etc.) and he wants revenge on the Telvanni responsible, asking the player to track him down and kill him.
Local Velothi citizens of a Telvanni town (or an unaffiliated Velothi town) tell rumors of strange sightings near a crater nearby (an area created long ago by the effects of a Telvanni experiment--terraformed in strange and unnatural shapes). Upon going there, the player investigates the area and the cause of the event. The investigation eventually leads them to a secluded place where the Telvanni responsible died (as a result of his own experiments) and left a ton of valuable treasure, all ripe for the player’s taking (there can be cursed treasure too).
The region doesn’t need to be chock-full of these kinds of experiment quests, but sprinkling them around will give much-needed character to the Telvanni’s wilderness, as well as give a sense of danger to the area, even if the player isn’t directly involved in that danger.
Of course, daedric creatures and undead (and vampires!) can be randomly encountered in the wilderness (both interior and exterior), presenting a more practical challenge outside of quests.
Dungeons
Most of the dungeons in the current Telvannis district are bland and without purpose. Come redo, I think that most--if not all--of the dungeons (Dwemer ruins, Velothi towers, caves, etc.) should tell some sort of story. Very few places should be “normal” (as presented in Vvardenfell or TR mainstream) as you get further and further away from Imperial civilization.
For Example:
An Ancestral Tomb has obvious signs of tampering/necromancy (ritual inscriptions, dug-up graves, excessive bone/flesh deposits, etc.)
A Velothi tower, Dwemer ruin, or cave is occupied by a peaceful Telvanni mage, who doesn’t seem to mind the player’s presence, and even could give the player some helpful advice/information regarding magic through some dialogue options. There are weird signs of experiments and magic all over. It gives the player an opportunity to take a breather and absorb the story of the place without the threat of enemies.
On the contrary (and I think this should be a far more common example), another Velothi tower, Dwemer ruin, or cave is occupied by a Telvanni rogue (either young and upstart or old and reclusive) who is hostile to the player. A young, ambitious type could have amassed a number of followers who present quite the challenge for the player, and an old, reclusive type could be a powerful mini-boss. Perhaps these occupants offer the player a chance to leave before they attack, or perhaps they simply attack on sight.
Aside from some select and important dungeons, I actually think that these locations in Telvannis should not have quests attached to them. Instead, they should be individually distinct (to the point where a player could name each dungeon from memory if they were randomly teleported there) and offer unique challenges to a player who happens to stumble across them. Doing it this way will not only increase the danger of the area, but also make the area more detailed and storied without adding a quest to every dungeon.
Telvanni Cities/Towns
Telvanni cities/towns should be perhaps the most openly hostile to the player. In some towns there should be attempts from the resident mage-lord to get rid of the player.
For Example:
The rarer option: The mage-lord of a particular town perceives the arrival of the Nerevarine as a threat to their power. They could hire nightblades or even contract the Morag Tong to assassinate the player and remove the problem.
The more common option: The mage-lord of another town may be distracted by your presence (as the player effectively goes in a town, talks to everyone, does quests, etc.--word gets around) and may tell the guards to ask you to leave. Perhaps he sends a telepathic message, or some other magical communication method, telling the player that since his retainers are distracted by you, he is as well--asking you to leave.
As Cicero posted above, the bigger Telvanni settlements should require Hospitality Papers, especially Port Telvannis and Gah Sadrith.
Things like this don’t necessarily have to happen in all towns, but they would help give the Telvanni settlements the unwelcoming atmosphere they should have. Some of these quests will also increase the danger, making Telvannis a higher-level area.
Misc Tidbits
I always thought that there should be a vampire Master of the Telvanni. It makes sense since as a player vampire you can rise in the ranks. It would add some more flavor and uniqueness to TR’s Telvanni (which is a good thing considering it’s House Telvanni). Even if a vampire Master won’t be added, at least a Wizard or two should be a vampire.
Similarly, it would be cool if there’s a Telvanni lich that the player can interact with (doesn’t have to be a Master or anything) and do quests for. Presumably they would be found in a very secluded area with a protected phylactery.
This is a much more magic-centric proposal for the Telvannis district, but in that way I also think that it separates the Telvanni even more from their Great House kin, and conveys their extreme individualism and iconoclastic nature.
TL;DR - The Telvannis region should be more personalized and uniquely challenging, as opposed to the uniform nature of things in regions controlled by other Great Houses. Each dungeon should be individual and handled with care, providing stories and challenges even to high-level players.
Telvanni members prefer them [tanto] over standard daggers as a matrix for their enchantments and Telvanni mercenaries were often equipped with enchanted tantos by their mage-lord patrons.
Source is the awful wikia, but I know its accurately paraphrased from TES3 dialogue. This should be a helpful tidbit o' lore
I've asked Gnomey why he thinks that having a centralised library is OOC for Telvanni. I'm copypasting a discussion that followed here. Our arguments are pretty well articulated, imo, and might be useful in the future.
Gnomey In general, Telvanni don't really seek knowledge for its own sake (not quite true, but works as a general statement), but rather knowledge is power, and might makes right. Telvanni are very solitary in nature and wizards do not tend to get along with each other. They hoard their knowledge in their towers just as they hoard their artifacts, and only bestow them on useful retainers if at all. The competition to hoard power, including knowledge, is what drives Telvanni, and becoming a powerful Telvanni only really means something if you tear that power away from your competitors leaving them in the dust. Having an accessible font of knowledge runs counter to that character. It also doesn't make for very good gameplay or worldbuilding; it's better to have the player work to find certain books or scrolls or whatever rather than dumping them all in one location. In more general terms, Telvanni are a very hostile and xenophobic house, and it's hard to communicate that with something like the Telvanni library; a common fault of old TR work is making eastern Morrowind far more outlander-friendly than it has any reasons to be (Indoril settlements have a very large percentage of outlanders, for instance).
scemps But house Telvanni does exist as an organisation. Wizards do need at least some measure of communication and collaboration. They probably depend on each other for protection from external threats at the very least. They definitely benefit from organising a common logistical system (a market and ports for slaves, prospective mercs and food). They would also likely need some training schemes to reproduce themselves and their retainers via learning (Telvanni guards need to learn their spells somewhere). I think that library is plausible but it should be limited to low-level magic - fireballs, shields, disease healing, low grade levitation and the like. Really powerful stuff and original research should obviously be hoarded by individual wizards. My take is, library should be restricted to House members and probably should be divided into sections according to House rank. It also might have a section for books that somehow became public knowledge but are too dangerous (politically or otherwise) to be given to any single wizard. Basically, like a nuclear power plant confinement area. Xenophobic impression could be driven by a system of rank-based restrictions to books. As well as a quest from some outside wizard (from the Mages Guild for example) that asks player for an access to a book from the library because he can't get it. Player then could get the book himself (if he's of high enough rank in the House) or try to get it in exchange for something disgusting from some middle-ranking Telvanni mage. Books also might be leased or sold from the library in exchange for something useful, like ingredients (salts, daedra bodyparts) or default potions. Not for gold, because gold doesn't has a utility in itself. This payment then could be redistributed to some common Telvanni fund (to supply library guards and clerks, for example). OF course game mechanics don't support leasing books, so maybe dialogue-based credit system (bring stuff to get tickets, get books via spending tickets if you're of required rank) could be implemented.
Gnomey While House Telvanni does exist as an organization, it is very different in nature to other houses and very -- in a way -- feudal in structure. The main Telvanni activity on Vvardenfell is effectively tossing upstart wizards at the frontier to try and expand the house; these upstarts seem to be left to their own devices and lack much in the way of direct support from House Telvanni. In TR's backstory, Telvanni is effectively the second of the modern Great Houses to form after Indoril, and they form as a result of opting out of the War of the First Council; they are effectively a political bloc formed so that they could keep to their individualistic ways in peace. (The point I was making with the feudal structure is that Telvanni wizards have a hierarchy of subordinates under them, but lack cohesive bonds between each other aside from the Parliament of Bugs. It's more likely that a particular Telvanni lord would have something like a library than it being a house institution.) While it's true that Telvanni is not without structure (though, again, the overarching house structure is mostly limited to the Parliament of Bugs), something to keep in mind is that by somewhat exaggerating their unique characteristics they will stand out more compared to other houses. In this case, House Indoril in particular emphasizes house unity and would provide for its members in a way that doesn't fit Telvanni as well. Among other things, this is characterized by Indoril having rank-locked services available to Indoril players, regardless of which Indoril lord they are loyal to or where they are in Indoril lands. Putting that all a bit more straightforwardly, the Telvanni structure basically revolves around give and take, or just take if you want to cut the middle man. You can learn spells in the vanilla game by doing tasks for particular wizards. If members of House Telvanni need knowledge or skills beyond what they can learn from low-level retainers, they would typically either find a way to acquire what they lack by force, or would go to whichever wizard would be best able to provide it and would either strike a deal or ingratiate themselves with them. The more powerful a wizard becomes, the more taking something from them by force will cease to be a viable strategy, and the more useful they are to keep around for other Telvanni. That race-to-the-top arrangement is what gives House Telvanni its strength, and is a philosophy at odds with organizations like the Empire and House Indoril, which typically try to disseminate knowledge to supporters to build up their power base.
scemps But this doesn't contradict my proposal. A single library that sells/lends knowledge to a strictly limited number of people is a pretty stark contrast to universal services of Indoril or common funds of guilds' replenishable chests. My take is that the library could be an exception to the personalistic in-house system (as well as several other common institutions that Telvanni support out of sheer convenience - like a common central slave market). This exception (and its limitations) could only enforce general house image.
Gnomey I suppose we disagree there. :-D For the record, I personally don't think the Port Telvannis slave market should really be organized as such either, at least not formally. Again, might makes right, and it's up for those with power to establish the rules in times of doubt. I see it more as a sort of anything-goes affair, with more powerful figures and groups taking their initiative to keep everyone else from acting too far out of line.
scemps I thought about it for some time before starting this discussion. My main point is that Telvanni should have some interest in a common institution. Otherwise this institution loses its meaning and gets dissolved. It doesn't matter what exactly is the main purpose for an institution - a defense against external threat, resource or knowledge acquisition or a method for socialization - it just should be and should be obvious enough for all its members. Otherwise Telvanni could've easily dismantled into several groups of court wizards in other houses. Arguably they could've secured their independence by organizing themselves on a basis of something resembling a guild or university, spending some effort to provide useful trinkets or services to uninitiated and getting protection and resources in return. Instead they decided to maintain their independence, spend time on managing Mouths, providing for their own guards, internal squabbling and whatnot. Efforts spent on maintaining independence should confer some benefit they can't get anywhere else. A common pool of knowledge and a practical possibility (unhindered by religious dogmas and warlords' levy attempts) to train low-level magical retainers seems to me to be one of the main possible options.
Gnomey There are plenty of groups and philosophies that are less cohesive in nature. If I were to compare political/economic philosophy, I'd say Telvanni are closest to libertarianism, but taken to an extreme. While they organize in broad terms to make sure no outside force can threaten them, what they consider to be strength and the means to achieve it leads them to broadly reject communal approaches.
scemps But it doesn't answer the question why in this case they didn't dissolve into some guild-like structure outside of Great House system (like Morag Tong or velothi professional guilds). My take is that being a Great House by definition presumes some way for people to organize themselves into an institution. Dres are organized on the basis of kinship, Indoril - law/dogma, Redoran - lifestyle/profession, Hlaalu - resources, Dagoth - cult of personality, Dwemer - knowledge/enlightenment. Telvanni, "ideological heirs" to Dwemer, have knowledge as well. Besides, I feel that viewing them as libertarians would be as misplaced as viewing Hlaalu as capitalists or Indoril as communists. But, eh, all of that is a matter of taste. :)
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2016-03-31 03:51
8 years 4 months ago
@Processus
The slaves work the egg mines, so the artisans and craftsmer can serve the tower’s needs comfortably. Besides harvesting eggs at their own peril, slaves probably get trained as servants and are used as live experimental subjects.
2016-07-07 09:41
7 years 2 months ago
@ DMKW
I really like that! Especially what you say about the degree to which Mouths actually speak for their masters:
“Some mouths may genuinly “speak for” what they believe their masters might want to achieve, but many in the Parliament of Bugs simply speak for themselves.”
The way I see it this could open up some interesting questlines. Two of the major themes guiding the depiction of Telvanni in the game is knowledge and power. Telvanni wizards are constantly amassing power in the pursuit of knowledge, and constantly applying knowledge in their pursuit of power. It seems to me, however, that to the wizards that personal pursuit of knowledge is a goal in itself, and that the pursuit of power is only meaningful in the personal pursuit of knowledge.
I can imagine an ambitious Telvanni that rejects this view. Who sees power, any kind of power, as the only legitimate goal, and knowledge as valuable only in so far as it increases it. To such a person the position as a mouth might proove an incredibly powerful position from which he or she can can attempt to manipulate political events to their favor. To such a person the wizards, with their vane scheming and striving for more and more esoteric knowledge, are nothing but tools to further their own political ends.
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 7 months ago
How do you reconcile the “special training” Fast Eddie mentions with it just being a teleport system?
I find the Dreamsleeve both more convenient for storytelling, more in line with MW-era lore Tamriel (as Imperial clerks were already noted to use the Dreamsleeve to communicate), and more interesting than the rather banal teleportation.
What’s easier for a master wizard than to shoot a quick “bring me 5 scrolls of toad jumping asap” with their mind, instead of writing it down on a scroll and waiting for the Mouth to pop in on their daily routine? I’m all for practical solutions, but this seems to me just a way to circumvent the Dreamsleeve while the practical arrangement this provides falls to the wayside.
2016-03-31 03:51
8 years 4 months ago
Telepathy is already a concept in Daggerfall, the dreamsleeve is simply their means. As a countermeasure against eavesdropping, it also explains why the Mouths are trained. Think of the subliminal mayhem ensuing if the Masters communicated directly; each spying on their peers’ communications, planting ideas where they don't belong. A third party could minimize that.
2016-07-07 09:41
7 years 2 months ago
@ Atroynis:
Could you point to where Fast Eddie mentions some kind of special training? I’ve gone throug the dialogue between him and the protagonist in Vanilla, but I can’t seem to find it. It is neither mentioned in the conversations with Aryon related to the quest of retrieving Eddie as a mouth. Aryon describes him as a promising Telvanni, but mentions nothing about some special training. Also, once you get Fast Eddie, in order to give him chores you actually have to go to Sadrith Mora and talk to him.
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 7 months ago
I stand corrected.
He mentions that his career was stopped in its tracks and he was waiting to be a mouth for years, but nothing about special training. This is pretty embarassing, it might have been something from one of LGNPC mods or thereabout which I remember.
Apologies and I withdraw that argument (I still do like the Dreamsleeve better than teleportation for the other reasons I cited and would like to point out that having to walk to the Council Hall seems more a gameplay limitation than anything, as it’s certainly possible to create telepathy with Fast Eddie via modding).
2016-03-31 03:51
8 years 4 months ago
Because we already know telepathy’s a thing from character generation, why not stick with that? The way I see it, the dreamsleeve is the mechanism, which doesn't need to be explored any deeper than Dwemeri mechanics. At a mundane level, it's just another facet of dealings between wizards, where the Mouths are these quasi Mentats. I like it, anyway...
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 7 months ago
Ì don’t think we are disagreeing, other than you want to avoid pinning it on the Dreamsleeve design-wise. Which I don’t understand, imo you should quantify how tradecraft works, even if it is magical tradecraft.
The Dwemer are in contrast long dead, so it doesn’t matter, but the Telvanni (and the Imperial clerks) are alive and well.
2016-03-31 03:51
8 years 4 months ago
Oh, I don't disagree at all. I'm only trying to make the point telepathy’s there; whether or not we get to exploit the mechanics of the dreamsleeve, I take my leave. I don't know how much of that has been conceptualized and implemented. :)
I just didn't want to see a good idea axed, because no one was certain of the dreamsleeve’s use.
2016-07-07 09:41
7 years 2 months ago
So I don’t want to argue against the notion of a telepathic link between mouths and their masters in itself. I actually think it is an interesting idea. My biggest problem is that it is an answer to a problem that is not recognized in vanilla. To institute this as the general way mouths communicate with their masters on the mainland will therefore inevitably raise the question why it is not used on Vardenfel.
If people still wish to explore this idea I would therefore rather suggest that it is presented as a new experimental form of magic, or an old mystic technique known only by a very few wizards. I still think it is a good idea that unfortunately is making too much disrupton to the original content, but that way you could at least minimize it.
2016-01-19 19:35
4 weeks 1 day ago
Perhaps it is Dagoth Ur’s influence that keeps them from using the Dreamsleeve on Vvardenfell? I imagine Dagoth Ur might use a similar mechanism to communicate with his followers, and crossing the streams with a mad god like that is probably bad juju.
But, that’s a bit of a kludge...I’d instead suggest maybe only some Mouths are trained with this? Those belonging to the most powerful Telvanni lords. Or as a type of magic that’s still new or otherwise fraught with dangers.
2016-01-17 19:59
7 years 3 weeks ago
Isn’t a mouth hired by their master in order to speak for them so they don’t have to? if Telvanni masters could speak telepathically then couldn’t they skip the middleman and just speak master to master without the mouth? The mouth as I see it is a trusted speaker for the master to deal with inner house workings and mundaine day to day stuff, so that the masters can bury themselves in books a experiments. That stuff is beyond them and they probably don’t care about any of it. I mean if I was an all powerful wizard I sure wouldn’t. If I was someone whos far away from all powerful or maybe could not ever expect to acheive all powerful, then I’d want power some other way within the house. Lets face it, many Telvanni may not even be magically inclined. Also, I imagine that masters are masters because they are not only magically inclined but gifted beyond what many will acheive. When I think of my mouth Fast Eddy I don’t think potential all powerful wizard. I think this is a guy who is just the shady politician type person I need to represent my interests while I do my own thing.
2016-03-31 03:51
8 years 4 months ago
Besides convenience, they also choose mouths as a measure against eavesdropping. If the wizards communicated directly, telepathy would reveal means and motives best kept hidden. That's my guess.
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 7 months ago
Memospore encription is a thing, you know.
In total, I think this is almost too complicated a thought construct for such a topic. The dreamsleeve works for telepathy, and it is “canonically” used by Imperial clerks and the Elder Council for that very same purpose, so it’s pretty sensible to believe that the Telvanni use it too. IMO.
Of course, at the same time I have to acknowledge that the Dreamsleeve mechanics were largely written down after Morrowind, and it only became popular after Oblivion when metagnosticism began its long and terrible journey.
Morrowind was really good about incorporating lore, but this one happened largely after, so it would be natural for the game to gloss over mechanics (as it is prone to do, it never went into depth as much as we do here, nevermind /r/teslore and the Whirling Schools). Morrowind shouldn’t be inviolatable in this regard, whether we in the long run agree on teleportation or Dreamsleeve telepathy/memospores. Just that we don’t need to invent a reason why any of that was ever mentioned in vanilla, and we shouldn’t feel compelled to spell out anything in TR itself aside from “everybody knows this” assumed background infos. Just so that we can agree on a determinator so that the things we create don’t actively contradict each other.
2016-07-07 09:41
7 years 2 months ago
@ Atrayonis:
I agree that the original Morrowind should not be inviolatable, but I think we ought to aim towards a game that allows for the most coherent storytelling possible. This means that we will have to keep an eye to what kind of restrictions have been assumed within already existing storylines. My fear is that by introducing a whole new way of communicating between wizard and the mouths, we will end up creating an unnecessary dissonance between the original and the expanded storyline. You might argue that we don’t have to justify every expansion to this storyline, which is an argument that I am generally sympathetic to. In terms of the role of the mouth, however, it is my opinion that it plays such a large role in the already existing storyline that to introduce entierly new mechanics inevitably starts begging the question.
I am not completely opposed to introducing this into the our expansion of the original Telvanni storyline, however. Maybe our main character even invents this mode of communication?
2016-01-17 14:03
6 months 1 week ago
There’s something to this. I think you’ll find this post to be relevant. Arguably, those creepy dreams Dagoth Ur sends you are a kind of dreamsleeve transmission.
It might be worthwile to nail down what te dreamsleeve is exactly: an afterlife hologram soul recycler, plus the place where people go when they dream. Imperial clerks can use it to send and receive messages (or store them for later in a memospore) by keeping part of their mind in a meditative half-sleeping state, requiring constant concentration.
Perhaps it would make more sense if dreamsleeve transmissions are a one-way thing? Masters can forcefully inserts messages in the mind of their mouths, but not the other way. It could also be that not all Telvanni lords have mastered this art: after all, they are not known for sharing secrets with each other. Wasn’t part of the lore behind the Vvardenfell Telvanni that they embodied the younger, pro-active branch of the house? Perhaps not all of them had access to these secrets.
2016-07-07 09:41
7 years 2 months ago
@ Infragris and Kevaar.
That is a really interesting idea. I most definitetly like the idea of the dreamsleeve being a one way means of communication. The master might transplant a vision, a cryptic message, or maybe even a simple image, which it is up to the mouth to interpret. I am not sure if this is what exactly you had in mind, but hear me out: The mind does not recieve readymade information about the world in any form. All information recieved by us is structured in relation to our own subjective spatio-temporal frame of reference. We are, one could say, already tuned to capturing information about the world around us. To insert information into another person through the dream state would for this reason involve quite a bit of calibration on both parties. The information needs to be sent in a way that is processable by the reciever, and the reciever needs to make themselves receptive to the information in the form it is sent. In the physical world we are already tuned toward capturing meaning through the sensory receptio of physical constancies in the environment. We are thus provided with a common world that we can communicate about. But in the case of our dreams, things are very much in flux. For example, often if you look at a street number in a dream it can change from one look, to the next. This makes communication through such a dreamstate extreemly difficult, because it is not helped by the common constancy of mundus the reciever needs to have a way of distinguishing the meaning and order recieved from the meaning and order that they are meant to provide. The sender might therefore want to send fairly simple, or symbolic messages through the dreamsleeve that is easier to recieve, but that consequtively demands quite a bit of interpretation on behalf of the reciever.
I also think it makes sense for this to be used by some of the Telvanni, but not all, Infragris. The Vvardenfell Telvanni being a more expansionist and pro-active part of the Telvanni faction. This way we expand upon the main plot without contradicting it.
I would like to share one worry, however. One thing I wish we could focus more on is what kind of stories we want to tell thorugh introducing new features to the game, and how it fits with the already existing themes of house Telvanni. I fear that if we don’t we will end up having a bunch of cool stuff, but stripped of any aparent depth or meaning. It will feel more like a themepark than a world. I realize that this is a brain storming thread, but at the same time I think it is good to try to also reflect on how we imagine this as a game experience.
Taking this into consideration I have a two questions that I think we ought to discuss about the introduction of dreamsleeve:
2016-03-31 03:51
8 years 4 months ago
1. Becoming Aryon’s Mouth meant nothing. We were given a paralyze staff, and that was it. Bummer.
2. For example, when arguing the merits or dangers of Aryon’s philosophy, we receive memos from our sponsor. They could update over the screen as monologue bubbles, in the vein of the Sharmat dreams. After each phase of the debate, we ‘rest’ to contact our sponsor.
2016-01-25 21:01
17 min 49 sec ago
Some Ideas that me and Vern came up with on Discord:
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Concept art for the Telvanni Towers Should definitly be used for Towers in port Telvannis. Such as the Large Parasol Mushrooms Stacked on top of each other.
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Maybe having Telvanni Experiments walking aorund the place, or have Daedra Roaming the city that are non hostile
Hospitality Papers for the City. And ones that you actually need to use the services....unlike vanilla sadrith mora.
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Telvannis Redo should incorporate all the original MW Concepts that never got used in the rest of the Province, hence the Hive and Dust Adepts I mentioned before. Skyport should be in Dres Lands, but if it gets cut from there, should be in Telvannis. These concepts would make the place so interesting and would give it the wow factor that the Telvanni lands need.
2015-08-10 20:50
5 days 11 hours ago
Just two short points while I'm on break:
Infrastructure is generally lacking in Telvannis. The mages keep to their towers, the Velothi to their villages. I don't think dust adepts should be a distinct group, but simply travellers, mercenaries and caravaners who traverse the untamed wasteland between the isolated spots of civilization.
As far as Boethiah's Spine is concerned, whatever is done to it I don't think it should be thought of as a region but rather a geographical feature and border between regions. Telvannis is narrow and I think more can be done with it. This doesn't affect the above ideas, just a note on my intentions there.
2016-10-10 22:03
1 year 1 month ago
IMO, Dust Adepts is a religious sect, worshiping Boethia, but with a mixture of Ashlanders and Telvanni traditions.
2016-01-25 21:01
17 min 49 sec ago
Why suggested a cool idea. A town that is sea level that requires all the residence to water walk to get around. Rather than the usual levitation. Llothanis was suggested to be such a place for this.
2016-08-28 05:22
2 days 19 hours ago
I would like to propose a rethinking of some Telvanni things, and Vahn in particular. I made this gridmap proposal, with notes below.
The general idea is to turn the Isles from a boring Sheogorad clone into a vibrant and interesting place that lives up to the standards of modern TR, both in region uniqueness and quest/settlement density.
Notes on the Isles' towers:
AlthoaOlanar, the easternmost of the Telvanni Isles. Althoa and Tel Inanarewere the home of Suryl Gilarys, an eccentric mage who reclaimed the abandoned tower after rumors emerged that it sat on a Chimeri-quey treasure hoard. She never found the treasure, but Surylkeepskept looking, and has employed one of the no'Quey to serve as an assistant.(I re-appropriated Olanar to serve as the resting place for King Orgnum's Coffer. It's abandoned.)The Gothren problem
I don't think TR should just demote Gothren to Wizard, as the current planning document suggests. Instead, I think Gothren - aware of the traditional Vahn stranglehold on Telvanni leadership, but lacking mainland support - should be attempting to break House Telvanni in two. Knowing Dral is absent, he is trying to establishing a pseudo-autonomous coalition of Vvardenfell lords run out of Sadrith Mora under his leadership.
Here's how I'd handle each of the Vvardenfell lords:
Oh, and because I couldn't think of another place to slip this in: we should make the Telvanni Library and the Hive the same thing. Books in the basement, bugs above. Books n' Bugs. Very fun.
Below is a listing of the ranks in the revised House Telvanni I am proposing:
I. Archmagister
Leader of House Telvanni and recognized head of the House.
Dral (Tel Thenim/Port Telvannis)
II. Magister
A person who claims to be the head of the House.
Gothren (Tel Aruhn)*
III. Master (Wizard)
The Parliament of Bugs, a “rank” that loosely correlates to the House Councillors of other houses, demonstrates holder of title has attained mastery in a particular art or knowledge, and is recognized by peers.
Aryon (Tel Vos)*
Dratha (Tel Mora)**
Eldale (Tel Darys/Gah Sadrith) [formerly Narrusa of Tel Narrusa]
Faruna (Tel Oren)
Mithras (Tel Aranyon)
Neloth (Tel Naga/Sadrith Mora)*
Rathra (Tel Ouada)
Suryl Gilarys (Tel Inan)Therana (Tel Branora)*
Vaerin (Tel Vaerin/Alt Bosara) [formerly Therana of Tel Branora]
*Sends their Mouth to Sadrith Mora
**Sends Mouths to both Port Telvannis and Sadrith Mora
IV. Wizard
Respected wizards in their own right, masterful in their craft, and have their own tower.
Angon Sadas (Tel Sadas)
Avodol Ulelian (Tel Salvelas)
Bal Gernak (Llothanis)
Dralothas Omothran (Tel Mothrivra)
Elvamera Beralan (Tel Vinra)
Lilru Givus (Tel Givus)
Llevari Telsaran (Tel Muthada)
Rilmas Athyrion (Tel Onoria/Marog)
Theldis Ledethi (Tel Ranol)
Ulvor Parran (Tel Parran)
Sorry for the text wall; I hope this gets some interest, at least.
2015-08-10 20:50
5 days 11 hours ago
I'm mostly restating stuff I've said on Discord, but for once am sensibly posting it on the forums rather than relying entirely on the awesome strength of Discord's search functionality.
Vahn and Port Telvannis
I definitely agree that Vahn as it is now is a boring Sheogorad clone and needs to change. That said, my direction is almost the opposite; to me, the original Telvanni concept art and descriptions with stuff like dust adepts (which as I've said before I see as a sort of class/occupation and not as an organization or culture as has been suggested before) always gave me the impression more of Telvanni emerging from a wasteland than a sadrith jungle, and my general concepts for Vahn grew from that premise.
I think the island itself should be mostly flat dusty wasteland with twisted flora, dangerous fauna such as aggressive netch variants, a few slaves who escaped the vast Port Telvannis slave markets but cannot escape the island, and a few escaped Telvanni experiments, some recent and others ancient.
vanilla concept art
Port Telvannis is pretty much the only settlement/habitation on Vahn (I wouldn't rule out one or two other coastal towers, but would prefer them to be on adjacent islands rather than Vahn itself). It was the nucleus of House Telvanni, where wizard-scholars who went into self-exile after refusing to take part in the War of the First Council convened and formed the house. The location of their convention, and core of Port Telvannis, is an ancient Velothi tower wedged between two coastal cliffs. Tel Thenim grew around and above the tower, and the rest of Port Telvannis grew out towards the waterside, entirely covering that stretch of coastline.
general placement (though not appearance) of Port Telvannis
In the opposite direction, going inland from the gap in the cliffs, stretch the vast slave (and other wares, but the slaves dominate) markets of Port Telvannis, fanning out from Tel Thenim. Overseers on siltstriders stalk between the slave pits with a virtually unobstructed view across the island interior.
vanilla concept art
Few Telvanni wizards chose to remain in Port Telvannis. Telvanni do not enjoy each others' company, and while Port Telvannis may have once been the site of vicious power-struggles the powerful mage-lords have long since flown the coop and built their own towers where they would not be unduly bothered. The main population of the city are the slaves, mouths and other retainers and bureaucrats, as well as simple Velothi.
Telvanni mage-lord from the 1st PGE
Port Telvannis does have towers, but these are no longer inhabited by powerful mage-lords. The lower parts of the towers have generally been repurposed by the local population in any number of ways, while the upper parts have often been neglected and could act a bit more like dungeons. Some might still contain the signs of the power-struggles that cleared the tower, perhaps even the husk of the Telvanni master who had met his end there at the hands of some forgotten rival. Many of the towers would be large and oddly shaped, with effectively new towers sprouting out of them before being likewise abandoned.
Impression of a dead mage-lord in a fallen tower
Tel Thenim itself has gained a symbolic identity as the seat of the Archmagister. While some Archmagisters may never have stepped foot in Tel Thenim or, for that matter, Port Telvannis, setting up residence in Tel Thenim would in itself be a way of claiming the seat of Archmagister, and as a result the tower has remained vacant for the powerful wizards capable and ambitious enough to become Archmagister to occupy.
The closest concentration of Telvanni mage-lords would be around Gah Sadrith, across the water from Port Telvannis. When Port Telvannis was starting to become too crowded for the Telvanni mage-lords' tastes, Gah Sadrith and its surrounding islands were the first place to which they withdrew. While a few powerful wizards still live there, physical proximity to Port Telvannis is not considered very important to Telvanni mage-lords, who are content to leave parliament matters to their mouths most of the time and have no trouble appearing in Port Telvannis should their physical presence ever be needed.
Dral and the Mage-Lords
I am not against having more towers in general, though as stated prefer if none of the 'active' ones are on Vahn.
I do not think Dral should ever have been a particularly politically savvy or active Telvanni, simply a powerful one. At one point (or several) in his long life (which IMO shouldn't be as long as Fyr's, 3000-2000 years seems plenty to me), he decided the title of Archmagister would be useful to him, likely during a power vacuum where there was relatively little risk in taking it. Not being very ambitious, Dral generally didn't bother other Telvanni wizards, and so likewise unambitious Telvanni had no issue leaving him the seat of Archmagister, and to a degree preferred him over more ambitious and as such tedious rivals like Gothren and Rathra. Whenever an ambitious mage has challenged him, Dral has proven powerful enough to deal with them.
So Dral has never had much use or interest in allies or stooges. In more general terms, Telvanni are generally too practical to care about stuff like image or making a name of themselves (something that came up on Discord). They don't really care too much about physical territory and tend to only focus on other Telvanni wizards or things (like the Temple and the Empire) that actively bother them when they actively bother them. (That is, most Telvanni wouldn't particularly hate or more to the point care about the Empire and its activities, and would only bother to do something against the Empire if the Empire specifically bothers them).
As mentioned on Discord, I see Telvanni expansionism less as them seeking territorial gains (though the Parliament of Bugs is taking advantage of that effect) and more as Telvanni upstarts trying to establish themselves outside the shadow of more powerful mage-lords.
As a general comment, the Telvanni library should be retired. If it survives, it should only do so after a thorough reimagining. It's anti-Telvanni in spirit, and I'm not sure whether the core concept behind it is even desirable from a gameplay standpoint.
Gothren and Vvardenfell
I could see Gothren either having the Archmagister rank alongside Dral or having the Magister rank. To me, which we should go with depends on more detailed implementation questions (what our final implementation of the Telvanni hortator quests will be, for instance) than I think we should be concerning ourselves with just yet. I do think Rathra and either Mithras or some other figure should occupy the Magister rank at any rate, that being stated in the vanilla Magister topic to be the title for Telvanni who challenge the authority of the current Archmagister. Given that Dral is missing, it makes sense for there to be a few claimants.
Strictly speaking Gothren would be one of them, as Dral still formally carries the title of Archmagister, but if implementation-wise it's better for Gothren to keep his rank it's not an issue to say that he is currently the one acting as Archmagister, and just as he is unable to unseat Dral, Dral has not bothered unseating Gothren, so both can get away with being called Archmagisters.
While I'm at it, anyone with the Master rank should have a presence in the Parliament of Bugs in Port Telvannis.
The mage-lords around Gothren do not directly need to be his supporters, but the fact that they seek proximity to and challenge him acts as an acknowledgement of his title. Of course, some of his neighbours predate Gothren.
2016-01-25 21:01
17 min 49 sec ago
2016-01-25 21:01
17 min 49 sec ago
Flame atronach in Port Telvannis whose only job is to go around and light the street lamps or lanterns.
2020-06-16 23:21
4 years 5 months ago
An idea for all Telvanni settlements, but especialy Port Telvannis, having loads of clutter and natural objects hanging and sticking out from roots. Like rocks, stones and crystals hanging and floating from roots. Or bones and insect Shells hanging from roots. Or in general a mix of Telvanni mushroom roots and buildings with Stones and other insectal/other creature body parts.
And something for the slave market, which Gnomey stated earlier, that mounted silt striders patrol the slave pens. Perhaps the market can consist of a large main street (which is is uncommon for the telvanni, but perhaps this can be because of the large scale of the market) with smaller streets spreading out (a main street on ground level, with two leveled root streets on both sides of the main street, looking down on the main street). With the slave market being on these two elevated rootstreets on the sides of the mainroad consisting of elevated slave pens, slave houses and slavepods. And silt striders patrol the main streets, with the elevated streets in looking reach of the siltstrider riders.
Also for Port Telvannis, since House Telvanni is a very individualistic house, have Port Telvannis style very diverse, with each tower and manor being very different and each street having its own style and character. Have all the Telvanni styles and concepts merge into one city.
And for food (production), maybe have some sort of food-harvesters guild(s), like a group of dark elves that search the coasts (in general), especially Azura's coast with small rowboats or canoe's for Saltrice and Marsmerrow. And/or some sort of (semi) nomadic dark elf group that traveles and searches for wickwheat, hackle-lo, and other foods/ingredients on the land.
2020-07-31 02:09
18 hours 14 min ago
Here are some thoughts I have on the direction we should go when redoing the Telvannis district. It is a huge post, so be warned. It goes into detail (example quests and all) for the flavor I would like to see in Telvannis.
To preface, I would like to say that I think that the whole Telvannis district should be one of the most high-level locations in Tamriel Rebuilt. Telvanni are powerful, and the region they decided to inhabit is consequently dangerous. The chance to randomly run into danger should be high. Even though immediate dangers that the player doesn’t seek out shouldn’t be excessively life-threatening (such as the local fauna), every cell should convey the idea of hostility and unwelcoming. Second, the concept of Telvanni individualism and anarchy should be conveyed by the individuality of its challenges. Dungeons should all be unique, quests should be weird, and the established culture of the Dunmer should be distorted and perverted where applicable to demonstrate the iconoclastic nature of the Telvanni. I will be leaving out the Ashlands and the Dust Adepts in this post, as I think those ideas have the most attention.
Imperial Settlement
The Imperial settlements should be by far the safest places in the Telvannis region. They recognize the danger of the lands around them, so they all have walls, guards, and easy escape routes that don’t involve land travel (Mages Guild guide, ship) for individuals that may have gotten on the wrong side of local rogue Telvanni, etcetera. This should be underscored by misc quests involving the creeping danger outside the cities.
Example quest: A mage found in a tavern in Firewatch/Helnim is fishing for volunteer subjects for their experiment. The mage says that the experiment would be absolutely harmless and that the player would earn a considerable reward if they accepted. The player can then either volunteer themselves or search for a willing subject in the city, or just say no. If the player volunteers themselves, they are asked to meet the mage in a vacant Dwemer ruin nearby. When the player gets there, the mage brings the player deeper into the ruin--into a chamber they built by connecting the mechanical structures of the ruin with enchanted stuff of their making. The player is put inside a caged device and the mage stands on an enchanted platform. When the experiment starts, the player is hit with various detrimental effects and even shock damage, while the mage is hit with fortify effects (signifying a transfer of life-force). The player then has to escape the contraption and defeat the evil mage before they die.
The quest demonstrates two things: (1) the respect/understanding that even evil wizards have of the fact that Imperial settlements are safe and guarded, through the fact that the mage went through the trouble to look for volunteers instead of just forcibly capturing locals, and (2) that the moment you leave Imperial protection, Telvannis is a dangerous land full of ambitious and sometimes evil people that will pose a challenge for even high-level players.
There could even be Imperial bounties on rogue sorcerers and bandits that have threatened the Imperial settlements in the past, to show that safety is a high priority for Imperials in Telvannis.
Wilderness
Once the player leaves the Imperial settlements in the Telvannis region, all semblance of safety vanishes. The wilderness is unforgiving with eldritch abominations and results of Telvanni-experiments-gone-wrong threatening an unwary player. Many quests around the area should focus on these strange and dangerous elements of Telvannis.
Example quests:
The player encounters a mutant atronach with parts of all elemental atronachs smushed together in a painful way--the result of a Telvanni experiment. The atronach complains that his existence is excruciating (the pain from having fire, ice, and electricity all together, etc.) and he wants revenge on the Telvanni responsible, asking the player to track him down and kill him.
Local Velothi citizens of a Telvanni town (or an unaffiliated Velothi town) tell rumors of strange sightings near a crater nearby (an area created long ago by the effects of a Telvanni experiment--terraformed in strange and unnatural shapes). Upon going there, the player investigates the area and the cause of the event. The investigation eventually leads them to a secluded place where the Telvanni responsible died (as a result of his own experiments) and left a ton of valuable treasure, all ripe for the player’s taking (there can be cursed treasure too).
The region doesn’t need to be chock-full of these kinds of experiment quests, but sprinkling them around will give much-needed character to the Telvanni’s wilderness, as well as give a sense of danger to the area, even if the player isn’t directly involved in that danger.
Of course, daedric creatures and undead (and vampires!) can be randomly encountered in the wilderness (both interior and exterior), presenting a more practical challenge outside of quests.
Dungeons
Most of the dungeons in the current Telvannis district are bland and without purpose. Come redo, I think that most--if not all--of the dungeons (Dwemer ruins, Velothi towers, caves, etc.) should tell some sort of story. Very few places should be “normal” (as presented in Vvardenfell or TR mainstream) as you get further and further away from Imperial civilization.
For Example:
An Ancestral Tomb has obvious signs of tampering/necromancy (ritual inscriptions, dug-up graves, excessive bone/flesh deposits, etc.)
A Velothi tower, Dwemer ruin, or cave is occupied by a peaceful Telvanni mage, who doesn’t seem to mind the player’s presence, and even could give the player some helpful advice/information regarding magic through some dialogue options. There are weird signs of experiments and magic all over. It gives the player an opportunity to take a breather and absorb the story of the place without the threat of enemies.
On the contrary (and I think this should be a far more common example), another Velothi tower, Dwemer ruin, or cave is occupied by a Telvanni rogue (either young and upstart or old and reclusive) who is hostile to the player. A young, ambitious type could have amassed a number of followers who present quite the challenge for the player, and an old, reclusive type could be a powerful mini-boss. Perhaps these occupants offer the player a chance to leave before they attack, or perhaps they simply attack on sight.
Aside from some select and important dungeons, I actually think that these locations in Telvannis should not have quests attached to them. Instead, they should be individually distinct (to the point where a player could name each dungeon from memory if they were randomly teleported there) and offer unique challenges to a player who happens to stumble across them. Doing it this way will not only increase the danger of the area, but also make the area more detailed and storied without adding a quest to every dungeon.
Telvanni Cities/Towns
Telvanni cities/towns should be perhaps the most openly hostile to the player. In some towns there should be attempts from the resident mage-lord to get rid of the player.
For Example:
The rarer option: The mage-lord of a particular town perceives the arrival of the Nerevarine as a threat to their power. They could hire nightblades or even contract the Morag Tong to assassinate the player and remove the problem.
The more common option: The mage-lord of another town may be distracted by your presence (as the player effectively goes in a town, talks to everyone, does quests, etc.--word gets around) and may tell the guards to ask you to leave. Perhaps he sends a telepathic message, or some other magical communication method, telling the player that since his retainers are distracted by you, he is as well--asking you to leave.
As Cicero posted above, the bigger Telvanni settlements should require Hospitality Papers, especially Port Telvannis and Gah Sadrith.
Things like this don’t necessarily have to happen in all towns, but they would help give the Telvanni settlements the unwelcoming atmosphere they should have. Some of these quests will also increase the danger, making Telvannis a higher-level area.
Misc Tidbits
I always thought that there should be a vampire Master of the Telvanni. It makes sense since as a player vampire you can rise in the ranks. It would add some more flavor and uniqueness to TR’s Telvanni (which is a good thing considering it’s House Telvanni). Even if a vampire Master won’t be added, at least a Wizard or two should be a vampire.
Similarly, it would be cool if there’s a Telvanni lich that the player can interact with (doesn’t have to be a Master or anything) and do quests for. Presumably they would be found in a very secluded area with a protected phylactery.
This is a much more magic-centric proposal for the Telvannis district, but in that way I also think that it separates the Telvanni even more from their Great House kin, and conveys their extreme individualism and iconoclastic nature.
TL;DR - The Telvannis region should be more personalized and uniquely challenging, as opposed to the uniform nature of things in regions controlled by other Great Houses. Each dungeon should be individual and handled with care, providing stories and challenges even to high-level players.
2020-10-12 01:06
2 months 2 weeks ago
Source is the awful wikia, but I know its accurately paraphrased from TES3 dialogue. This should be a helpful tidbit o' lore
2020-12-18 21:43
3 years 11 months ago
I've asked Gnomey why he thinks that having a centralised library is OOC for Telvanni. I'm copypasting a discussion that followed here. Our arguments are pretty well articulated, imo, and might be useful in the future.
Gnomey
In general, Telvanni don't really seek knowledge for its own sake (not quite true, but works as a general statement), but rather knowledge is power, and might makes right. Telvanni are very solitary in nature and wizards do not tend to get along with each other. They hoard their knowledge in their towers just as they hoard their artifacts, and only bestow them on useful retainers if at all. The competition to hoard power, including knowledge, is what drives Telvanni, and becoming a powerful Telvanni only really means something if you tear that power away from your competitors leaving them in the dust.
Having an accessible font of knowledge runs counter to that character.
It also doesn't make for very good gameplay or worldbuilding; it's better to have the player work to find certain books or scrolls or whatever rather than dumping them all in one location.
In more general terms, Telvanni are a very hostile and xenophobic house, and it's hard to communicate that with something like the Telvanni library; a common fault of old TR work is making eastern Morrowind far more outlander-friendly than it has any reasons to be (Indoril settlements have a very large percentage of outlanders, for instance).
scemps
But house Telvanni does exist as an organisation. Wizards do need at least some measure of communication and collaboration. They probably depend on each other for protection from external threats at the very least. They definitely benefit from organising a common logistical system (a market and ports for slaves, prospective mercs and food). They would also likely need some training schemes to reproduce themselves and their retainers via learning (Telvanni guards need to learn their spells somewhere).
I think that library is plausible but it should be limited to low-level magic - fireballs, shields, disease healing, low grade levitation and the like. Really powerful stuff and original research should obviously be hoarded by individual wizards. My take is, library should be restricted to House members and probably should be divided into sections according to House rank.
It also might have a section for books that somehow became public knowledge but are too dangerous (politically or otherwise) to be given to any single wizard. Basically, like a nuclear power plant confinement area.
Xenophobic impression could be driven by a system of rank-based restrictions to books. As well as a quest from some outside wizard (from the Mages Guild for example) that asks player for an access to a book from the library because he can't get it. Player then could get the book himself (if he's of high enough rank in the House) or try to get it in exchange for something disgusting from some middle-ranking Telvanni mage.
Books also might be leased or sold from the library in exchange for something useful, like ingredients (salts, daedra bodyparts) or default potions. Not for gold, because gold doesn't has a utility in itself. This payment then could be redistributed to some common Telvanni fund (to supply library guards and clerks, for example). OF course game mechanics don't support leasing books, so maybe dialogue-based credit system (bring stuff to get tickets, get books via spending tickets if you're of required rank) could be implemented.
Gnomey
While House Telvanni does exist as an organization, it is very different in nature to other houses and very -- in a way -- feudal in structure. The main Telvanni activity on Vvardenfell is effectively tossing upstart wizards at the frontier to try and expand the house; these upstarts seem to be left to their own devices and lack much in the way of direct support from House Telvanni.
In TR's backstory, Telvanni is effectively the second of the modern Great Houses to form after Indoril, and they form as a result of opting out of the War of the First Council; they are effectively a political bloc formed so that they could keep to their individualistic ways in peace.
(The point I was making with the feudal structure is that Telvanni wizards have a hierarchy of subordinates under them, but lack cohesive bonds between each other aside from the Parliament of Bugs. It's more likely that a particular Telvanni lord would have something like a library than it being a house institution.)
While it's true that Telvanni is not without structure (though, again, the overarching house structure is mostly limited to the Parliament of Bugs), something to keep in mind is that by somewhat exaggerating their unique characteristics they will stand out more compared to other houses. In this case, House Indoril in particular emphasizes house unity and would provide for its members in a way that doesn't fit Telvanni as well. Among other things, this is characterized by Indoril having rank-locked services available to Indoril players, regardless of which Indoril lord they are loyal to or where they are in Indoril lands.
Putting that all a bit more straightforwardly, the Telvanni structure basically revolves around give and take, or just take if you want to cut the middle man. You can learn spells in the vanilla game by doing tasks for particular wizards. If members of House Telvanni need knowledge or skills beyond what they can learn from low-level retainers, they would typically either find a way to acquire what they lack by force, or would go to whichever wizard would be best able to provide it and would either strike a deal or ingratiate themselves with them. The more powerful a wizard becomes, the more taking something from them by force will cease to be a viable strategy, and the more useful they are to keep around for other Telvanni. That race-to-the-top arrangement is what gives House Telvanni its strength, and is a philosophy at odds with organizations like the Empire and House Indoril, which typically try to disseminate knowledge to supporters to build up their power base.
scemps
But this doesn't contradict my proposal. A single library that sells/lends knowledge to a strictly limited number of people is a pretty stark contrast to universal services of Indoril or common funds of guilds' replenishable chests.
My take is that the library could be an exception to the personalistic in-house system (as well as several other common institutions that Telvanni support out of sheer convenience - like a common central slave market). This exception (and its limitations) could only enforce general house image.
Gnomey
I suppose we disagree there. :-D For the record, I personally don't think the Port Telvannis slave market should really be organized as such either, at least not formally. Again, might makes right, and it's up for those with power to establish the rules in times of doubt. I see it more as a sort of anything-goes affair, with more powerful figures and groups taking their initiative to keep everyone else from acting too far out of line.
scemps
I thought about it for some time before starting this discussion. My main point is that Telvanni should have some interest in a common institution. Otherwise this institution loses its meaning and gets dissolved. It doesn't matter what exactly is the main purpose for an institution - a defense against external threat, resource or knowledge acquisition or a method for socialization - it just should be and should be obvious enough for all its members. Otherwise Telvanni could've easily dismantled into several groups of court wizards in other houses. Arguably they could've secured their independence by organizing themselves on a basis of something resembling a guild or university, spending some effort to provide useful trinkets or services to uninitiated and getting protection and resources in return. Instead they decided to maintain their independence, spend time on managing Mouths, providing for their own guards, internal squabbling and whatnot. Efforts spent on maintaining independence should confer some benefit they can't get anywhere else. A common pool of knowledge and a practical possibility (unhindered by religious dogmas and warlords' levy attempts) to train low-level magical retainers seems to me to be one of the main possible options.
Gnomey
There are plenty of groups and philosophies that are less cohesive in nature. If I were to compare political/economic philosophy, I'd say Telvanni are closest to libertarianism, but taken to an extreme. While they organize in broad terms to make sure no outside force can threaten them, what they consider to be strength and the means to achieve it leads them to broadly reject communal approaches.
scemps
But it doesn't answer the question why in this case they didn't dissolve into some guild-like structure outside of Great House system (like Morag Tong or velothi professional guilds). My take is that being a Great House by definition presumes some way for people to organize themselves into an institution.
Dres are organized on the basis of kinship, Indoril - law/dogma, Redoran - lifestyle/profession, Hlaalu - resources, Dagoth - cult of personality, Dwemer - knowledge/enlightenment. Telvanni, "ideological heirs" to Dwemer, have knowledge as well.
Besides, I feel that viewing them as libertarians would be as misplaced as viewing Hlaalu as capitalists or Indoril as communists.
But, eh, all of that is a matter of taste. :)
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