I’d try dropping the saturation a bit and then playing around with brightness to get the desired effect.
Or rather, I tried:
Somehow the MT_grass texture’s giving me a lot of trouble in photoshop, so for lack of time on my end you’ll have to work with the general idea. I think the green works much better if it’s lighter (though not too saturated, as it is in that image), though it might work even better if it’s shifted to be more yellow. I think the ideal balance for this region would be to make it bright without making it too saturated or, on the other end of the spectrum, too bone-dry; basically to match the pale AI rocks and corkbulb leaves and such.
As for the ferns, generally I’m for replacing as much as is viable as long as the replacements will cause the minimum of placements errors (I’m willing to iron out any remaining kinks as long as they’re subtle; the placement in Middle Thirr could always use more work anyway, as it’s a little rough as-is). As sirrah created the moss meshes, I think replacing the ferns with them (or variants) is possible and desireable and won’t cause a lot of placement errors. That being said, seeing a good fern retexture might always convince me otherwise. I’m generally a bit dubious about straightforward recolours for non-terrain assets; I frankly don’t really feel they add anything to the game and just save on labour, and in this case we thankfully appear to have an alternative.
Is there some weird vertex shading happening on that fern? The texture, while not great, is definitely not that eye-searingly green when viewed in photoshop. Assuming I’m correctly looking at tr_f_fern_01.dds.
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It looks like the material is to blame for the intense green. Here’s the fern in Nifskope with its current material and a desaturated one: http://i.imgur.com/YJUwEmf.png Here’s the original and desaturated ferns alongside an orange-shifted one in the CS: http://i.imgur.com/p7YwcDy.png
Well, either the desaturated or slightly orangey one would be a major improvement.
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Oh, the fern’s not supposed to be eye-searingly green? The more you know…
Edit: wow, just realized I somehow managed to repeatedly overlook the post in which Rats posted the fern picture; I’d assumed you were all talking about a decision to recolour the ferns from another thread, not that we already had a recolour. I do still think we should consider replacing plants rather than just recolouring them, but as recolours go those are by no means bad.
Can we get a picture of these textures right next to both West Gash and Grazeands textures? I don’t think they’re too saturated, but perhaps a direct comparrison can help. Doesn’t Tribunal also have some unique ground textures for outside of Almalexia’s Temple? Can we compare that to this as well?
Why compare it to ground textures of completely unrelated regions? You have it right infront of your eyes here. See them in comparison to the ascadian isles- rocks and the trees. The contrast is pretty strong.
Please stop nitpicking about every single little detail, that’s really not helpful at all. Especially since that might also be your monitors fault, it looks fine on my semiprofessional IPS panel.
I don’t think he’s nitpicking at all. It’s the only point he’s made so far and it’s a valid one. Personally, I don’t think it would hurt to bump down the saturation a bit. The textures make the rocks look a bit too dull to me.
That’s not a bad criticism— but I’d also like to see, instead (also, alternately,) some of the other plants and such have their saturation bumped up with some more vibrant oranges, so they don’t look so out of place.
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I admit I don’t have an eye for how saturated is too saturated, I would need to see this actually in-game before making a judgement and how well it blends with the wider context. I don’t see why you deleted your reply, worsas, I found it okay.
Reducing saturation should be the way to go if it doesn’t fit (and reducing saturation to try to see if it’s obviously better, as Rats is doing). Upping saturation on other pieces in this landscape will make the problem worse, not better. It will just make everything look out of place when compared to other regions, instead only the ground textures.
I grew a bit unsure about the content and tone of my previous post.
For one, I think it’s important to note that the low saturation of environmental assets in the vanilla game is not a locally limited region design, but a way to stress the muted and dry atmosphere of the game.
On the other hand I don’t think that there can’t be more vibrant regions in the game aswell, though in case of the Thirr River region, I don’t see why and how it would contrast that strongly to neighbouring regions. To me it would probably just be offputting to see the difference in vibrancy ingame and it would make the rest of the game look bleak in comparison. As long as everything is on the same level of desaturation, it’s nothing that really bugs you, but as soon as a part of the game breaks out of this pattern you start to dislike it all.
Morrowind as a game is not that much suited to focusing on ecstatic, eyecandy views. The gameworld is a bit bleak to give more room to a sober feeling of playing where attention to story, the inner logic of the universe etc are in the foreground. Blergh. I hope that makes sense anyhow.
The orange-ish is supposed to move from Ascadian Isles/Bluffs (green) through the Aanthirin (green/orange) – the name is going to stick this time, promise – to the (new) Thirr Valley (mostly orange) to the Othreleth Woods and Shipal-Shin (mostly red with few orange plants).
So it would be in future not be that much a clash in vibrancy since there is a natural progression to the south.
Of course, if the saturation is all wrong then this is something that should be tweaked before it becomes obviously eye-popping (although I don’t see it, but I’m not a graphics guy and I’m looking forward to see if a more desaturated texture would look better).
to be honest, any concerns i’d have about big saturation contrasts were more or less ignored by tribunal and bloodmoon anyway, so this minor saturation in an area relatively near almalexia doesn’t bother me so much
Some concepts for potential river/water plants for the Thirr. To be used along its whole length, more or less.
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The current Othreleth models are too saturated for my taste, certainly, and others have said much the same before, so I wouldn’t worry about creating a transition to those in their current appearance. Morrowind’s palette is fairly subtle, as it can actually be quite vibrant and colourful without being very saturated; the Dunmer clothing would be a good example. I think the Othreleth and by extension to some greater or lesser extent Aanthirin regions should be on the more vibrant end, but they shouldn’t look too out of place alongside the other regions either. It’s a fine line to walk, but I think worth the effort. And subjective as well; I personally think the level of saturation in Rats’ screenshots is still within limits, but it is hard to judge.
Thanks! The idea with the big flower is that the petals get larger and then fold themselves down into the water. It probably floats around, so you’d see them in calmer areas.
EDIT: and I said so on the asset, but your work looks great sirrah.
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I really think the best thing to do to test out the saturation of these colors is to make a mock-up in the CS that put these textures next to the WG, Grazelands, and BC textures. We need to get a definitive feel for how these textures will play in our game world.
Agreed. Most pertinent would be next to Ascadian Isles and Grazelands, though, Ascadian Bluffs and Roth-Roryn being two neighbouring regions after all.
Saw these plants on my porch and it reminded me of this.
These plants have the warm orange/yellow colors around the edge like the corkbulb plants shown earlier, but notice how these also have the yellowish colors in the veins of the leaf, making the colors as a whole, to me, look more natural together with the green.
Just some inspiration in case anyone is still designing/redesigning plant life for this region.
Ok, let’s try to get an idea of what the Aanthirin visual update would actually involve. I tried to do so in the old thread, but now realize I didn’t go about it in a very organized fashion. This is only a start, as I have once again managed to underestimated how long data gathering and organizing can take.
What we have so far:
Rocks will stay as they are.
New ground textures: Other replacement: WG_Road – to be replaced with WG_Cobblestones
New flora assets: Brown Mushroom – – This one has been added to Tamriel_Data as a global, in other words, it is not specifically a Morrowind/Aanthirin mushroom but rather a general use mushroom, which I think fits its appearance. These mushrooms do not currently replace well with the BC mushrooms. Corkbulb Variant – – I’m personally not a fan of flora retextures, and think it isn’t necessary for corkbulbs anyway; I think Aanthirin’s green tones should match the green tones of corkbulb leaves. Furn Variant – –Another flora retexture. Giant Elowan – –I personally prefer this one for the Arnesian Jungle. Grass Variant – – Another flora retexture. This one may also not be necessary, as the green tone is very similar to that of corkbulb. Orange Lilypads – –Replacement for current lilypads. From a quick check, only one of the pads and the flower asset seem to replace cleanly, the rest will require manual adjustment. Orange Moss – – My earlier confusion and forgetfulness aside, I still think I like the idea of replacing ferns with these rather than using retextures. Some adjustments may need to be done to placement which I would be willing to take care of. Pitcher Plants – – This one’s admittedly an odd one, but I have a rough idea for a radically different texture in mind I might sketch out. The basic idea is to transform it into something more akin (in function) to a slim mucksponge. A woody funnel with a mushroom tip and perhaps fern-like leaves. It could actually perhaps work as an alternative for a fern replacer, come to think of it… Sichiton – – This one would require a different texture, but I mention it largely because of the bright red berries would provide an alternative to my Sharai Flies idea.
New flora concepts: Bearded Iris – – The link to the original image appears to be broken, do you still have it Kaziem? My image doesn’t exactly do it justice. Bulb Trees – – a modification of the Ndib trees. On which note, see the note below. Tulband – – Underwater asset to be used in shallow waters, probably alongside the orange lilypads. Various – – While I’d originally considered these for Aanthirin, I don’t think that’s the best use of them on second thought. Weeping Veil – –reimagined as a translucent flower rather than a mushroom, which I think it was in the original concept. The link to this one’s original image appears to be broken as well.
What is the status on the Ndibs trees again? Doesn’t look like the updated versions are in Tamriel_Data.
What we need: Rocks (as above, in that they won’t be replaced) and ground textures are taken care of for the time being, though the ground textures will, I think, need some further adjustments. Flora will have to wait for another day, as it’s getting late here. The three plant replacements here are still those I consider most in need of replacing, as the green of those plants is (in my opinion) far too saturated to work for Aanthirin. Some more concepting might also be useful to get a better idea of how the end product should look like. At the moment, I’m not entirely sure how much green we want to keep in our palette, among other things.
Edit: Ah right, the other important aspect to consider for implementation is splitting off a section file to work on for the west bank of Aanthirin, and I’m not sure where best to discuss that so, so as not to scatter information far and wide, I’ll just post it here for now: The green area is what I would suggest. (I didn’t look too closely at the cells bordering Vvardenfell, so if any of those are currently unedited by TR they should be left out). They are the required minimum for the Aanthirin visual update and work on Andothren (which is another subject, of course). The addition of the yellow area would allow for further changes to Menaan, and the addition of the red area would allow further edits to the incomplete buffer zone. That being said, I’m rather hesitant on those additions. They are by and large Roth-Roryn territory and, while Roth-Roryn is mostly fine as is, I’m still hesitant to do too much with it when it still hasn’t been properly discussed. I would rather they remain in their incomplete state for the time being and that we create a new section for them when we’re ready to open up work on Roth-Roryn.
I don't quite know how the cell borders are atm, but I would rather have the mouth of River Thirr be part of the Ascadian Bluffs and have the Aanthirin -- and the visual update -- start a cell or two south of Gol Mok and OE
Ah yeah, the cells north of -20 are really there for any transitional work we may need to do between the Ascadian Bluffs and Aanthirin, more as a just-in-case addition. As Gol Mok will need some rearranging anyway as well as – at the very least – Andothren’s Dwemer ruins, I thought it best to include that area.
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2015-08-10 20:50
21 hours 54 min ago
I’d try dropping the saturation a bit and then playing around with brightness to get the desired effect.
Or rather, I tried:
Somehow the MT_grass texture’s giving me a lot of trouble in photoshop, so for lack of time on my end you’ll have to work with the general idea. I think the green works much better if it’s lighter (though not too saturated, as it is in that image), though it might work even better if it’s shifted to be more yellow. I think the ideal balance for this region would be to make it bright without making it too saturated or, on the other end of the spectrum, too bone-dry; basically to match the pale AI rocks and corkbulb leaves and such.
As for the ferns, generally I’m for replacing as much as is viable as long as the replacements will cause the minimum of placements errors (I’m willing to iron out any remaining kinks as long as they’re subtle; the placement in Middle Thirr could always use more work anyway, as it’s a little rough as-is). As sirrah created the moss meshes, I think replacing the ferns with them (or variants) is possible and desireable and won’t cause a lot of placement errors. That being said, seeing a good fern retexture might always convince me otherwise. I’m generally a bit dubious about straightforward recolours for non-terrain assets; I frankly don’t really feel they add anything to the game and just save on labour, and in this case we thankfully appear to have an alternative.
2015-12-12 23:47
3 years 3 months ago
Is there some weird vertex shading happening on that fern? The texture, while not great, is definitely not that eye-searingly green when viewed in photoshop. Assuming I’m correctly looking at tr_f_fern_01.dds.
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2016-01-17 13:07
1 year 9 months ago
It looks like the material is to blame for the intense green.
Here’s the fern in Nifskope with its current material and a desaturated one: http://i.imgur.com/YJUwEmf.png
Here’s the original and desaturated ferns alongside an orange-shifted one in the CS: http://i.imgur.com/p7YwcDy.png
2015-12-12 23:47
3 years 3 months ago
Well, either the desaturated or slightly orangey one would be a major improvement.
Does: concepts, textures, youtube vids, admin stuff e.g. PR, handbook, assets, small website things. Activity level: wildly unpredictable. Still active. Find me on Discord.
2015-08-10 20:50
21 hours 54 min ago
Oh, the fern’s not supposed to be eye-searingly green? The more you know…
Edit: wow, just realized I somehow managed to repeatedly overlook the post in which Rats posted the fern picture; I’d assumed you were all talking about a decision to recolour the ferns from another thread, not that we already had a recolour. I do still think we should consider replacing plants rather than just recolouring them, but as recolours go those are by no means bad.
2014-01-08 21:55
2 hours 29 min ago
Gnomey’s textures look very good, I’ll do some testing with ‘em.
update. Screenshots of new ground textures. Getting there.
2016-01-17 01:30
1 month 7 hours ago
I’ve missed your last update, it looks really nice with the new textures
Is there any further progress to report on this yet?
2016-01-26 12:34
2 days 1 hour ago
I find these textures a bit too saturated for Morrowind, even though they fit nicely in all other respect.
2016-01-17 16:36
5 years 7 months ago
Can we get a picture of these textures right next to both West Gash and Grazeands textures? I don’t think they’re too saturated, but perhaps a direct comparrison can help. Doesn’t Tribunal also have some unique ground textures for outside of Almalexia’s Temple? Can we compare that to this as well?
2016-01-26 12:34
2 days 1 hour ago
Why compare it to ground textures of completely unrelated regions? You have it right infront of your eyes here. See them in comparison to the ascadian isles- rocks and the trees. The contrast is pretty strong.
2016-01-17 01:30
1 month 7 hours ago
Please stop nitpicking about every single little detail, that’s really not helpful at all.
Especially since that might also be your monitors fault, it looks fine on my semiprofessional IPS panel.
2016-01-23 02:43
8 years 1 week ago
I don’t think he’s nitpicking at all. It’s the only point he’s made so far and it’s a valid one. Personally, I don’t think it would hurt to bump down the saturation a bit. The textures make the rocks look a bit too dull to me.
2014-01-08 21:55
2 hours 29 min ago
I'll make textures a bit less saturated, and see what it does.
2015-12-12 23:47
3 years 3 months ago
That’s not a bad criticism— but I’d also like to see, instead (also, alternately,) some of the other plants and such have their saturation bumped up with some more vibrant oranges, so they don’t look so out of place.
Does: concepts, textures, youtube vids, admin stuff e.g. PR, handbook, assets, small website things. Activity level: wildly unpredictable. Still active. Find me on Discord.
2016-01-26 12:34
2 days 1 hour ago
Edit: Nvm.
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 7 months ago
I admit I don’t have an eye for how saturated is too saturated, I would need to see this actually in-game before making a judgement and how well it blends with the wider context. I don’t see why you deleted your reply, worsas, I found it okay.
Reducing saturation should be the way to go if it doesn’t fit (and reducing saturation to try to see if it’s obviously better, as Rats is doing). Upping saturation on other pieces in this landscape will make the problem worse, not better. It will just make everything look out of place when compared to other regions, instead only the ground textures.
2016-01-26 12:34
2 days 1 hour ago
I grew a bit unsure about the content and tone of my previous post.
For one, I think it’s important to note that the low saturation of environmental assets in the vanilla game is not a locally limited region design, but a way to stress the muted and dry atmosphere of the game.
On the other hand I don’t think that there can’t be more vibrant regions in the game aswell, though in case of the Thirr River region, I don’t see why and how it would contrast that strongly to neighbouring regions. To me it would probably just be offputting to see the difference in vibrancy ingame and it would make the rest of the game look bleak in comparison. As long as everything is on the same level of desaturation, it’s nothing that really bugs you, but as soon as a part of the game breaks out of this pattern you start to dislike it all.
Morrowind as a game is not that much suited to focusing on ecstatic, eyecandy views. The gameworld is a bit bleak to give more room to a sober feeling of playing where attention to story, the inner logic of the universe etc are in the foreground. Blergh. I hope that makes sense anyhow.
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 7 months ago
The orange-ish is supposed to move from Ascadian Isles/Bluffs (green) through the Aanthirin (green/orange) – the name is going to stick this time, promise – to the (new) Thirr Valley (mostly orange) to the Othreleth Woods and Shipal-Shin (mostly red with few orange plants).
So it would be in future not be that much a clash in vibrancy since there is a natural progression to the south.
Of course, if the saturation is all wrong then this is something that should be tweaked before it becomes obviously eye-popping (although I don’t see it, but I’m not a graphics guy and I’m looking forward to see if a more desaturated texture would look better).
2016-07-06 07:55
3 years 1 month ago
to be honest, any concerns i’d have about big saturation contrasts were more or less ignored by tribunal and bloodmoon anyway, so this minor saturation in an area relatively near almalexia doesn’t bother me so much
2015-12-12 23:47
3 years 3 months ago
Some concepts for potential river/water plants for the Thirr. To be used along its whole length, more or less.
Does: concepts, textures, youtube vids, admin stuff e.g. PR, handbook, assets, small website things. Activity level: wildly unpredictable. Still active. Find me on Discord.
2016-01-17 01:30
1 month 7 hours ago
Wow Kaziem, that water flower is just so damn gorgeous
2016-01-17 13:07
1 year 9 months ago
I really like the orange lilies (and felt inspired to have a crack at them: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/asset/orange-lilypads)
2015-08-10 20:50
21 hours 54 min ago
The current Othreleth models are too saturated for my taste, certainly, and others have said much the same before, so I wouldn’t worry about creating a transition to those in their current appearance. Morrowind’s palette is fairly subtle, as it can actually be quite vibrant and colourful without being very saturated; the Dunmer clothing would be a good example. I think the Othreleth and by extension to some greater or lesser extent Aanthirin regions should be on the more vibrant end, but they shouldn’t look too out of place alongside the other regions either. It’s a fine line to walk, but I think worth the effort. And subjective as well; I personally think the level of saturation in Rats’ screenshots is still within limits, but it is hard to judge.
2015-12-12 23:47
3 years 3 months ago
Thanks! The idea with the big flower is that the petals get larger and then fold themselves down into the water. It probably floats around, so you’d see them in calmer areas.
EDIT: and I said so on the asset, but your work looks great sirrah.
Does: concepts, textures, youtube vids, admin stuff e.g. PR, handbook, assets, small website things. Activity level: wildly unpredictable. Still active. Find me on Discord.
2016-01-17 16:36
5 years 7 months ago
I really think the best thing to do to test out the saturation of these colors is to make a mock-up in the CS that put these textures next to the WG, Grazelands, and BC textures. We need to get a definitive feel for how these textures will play in our game world.
2015-08-10 20:50
21 hours 54 min ago
Agreed. Most pertinent would be next to Ascadian Isles and Grazelands, though, Ascadian Bluffs and Roth-Roryn being two neighbouring regions after all.
2016-05-21 23:57
8 years 2 months ago
Saw these plants on my porch and it reminded me of this.
These plants have the warm orange/yellow colors around the edge like the corkbulb plants shown earlier, but notice how these also have the yellowish colors in the veins of the leaf, making the colors as a whole, to me, look more natural together with the green.
Just some inspiration in case anyone is still designing/redesigning plant life for this region.
http://imgur.com/a/w3I4e
2015-08-10 20:50
21 hours 54 min ago
Ok, let’s try to get an idea of what the Aanthirin visual update would actually involve. I tried to do so in the old thread, but now realize I didn’t go about it in a very organized fashion. This is only a start, as I have once again managed to underestimated how long data gathering and organizing can take.
What we have so far:
Rocks will stay as they are.
New ground textures:
Other replacement:
WG_Road – to be replaced with WG_Cobblestones
New flora assets:
– This one has been added to Tamriel_Data as a global, in other words, it is not specifically a Morrowind/Aanthirin mushroom but rather a general use mushroom, which I think fits its appearance. These mushrooms do not currently replace well with the BC mushrooms.
– I’m personally not a fan of flora retextures, and think it isn’t necessary for corkbulbs anyway; I think Aanthirin’s green tones should match the green tones of corkbulb leaves.
–Another flora retexture.
–I personally prefer this one for the Arnesian Jungle.
– Another flora retexture. This one may also not be necessary, as the green tone is very similar to that of corkbulb.
–Replacement for current lilypads. From a quick check, only one of the pads and the flower asset seem to replace cleanly, the rest will require manual adjustment.
– My earlier confusion and forgetfulness aside, I still think I like the idea of replacing ferns with these rather than using retextures. Some adjustments may need to be done to placement which I would be willing to take care of.
– This one’s admittedly an odd one, but I have a rough idea for a radically different texture in mind I might sketch out. The basic idea is to transform it into something more akin (in function) to a slim mucksponge. A woody funnel with a mushroom tip and perhaps fern-like leaves. It could actually perhaps work as an alternative for a fern replacer, come to think of it…
– This one would require a different texture, but I mention it largely because of the bright red berries would provide an alternative to my Sharai Flies idea.
Brown Mushroom–Corkbulb Variant –
Furn Variant –
Giant Elowan –
Grass Variant –
Orange Lilypads –
Orange Moss –
Pitcher Plants –
Sichiton –
New flora concepts:
– The link to the original image appears to be broken, do you still have it Kaziem? My image doesn’t exactly do it justice.
– a modification of the Ndib trees. On which note, see the note below.
– Underwater asset to be used in shallow waters, probably alongside the orange lilypads.
– While I’d originally considered these for Aanthirin, I don’t think that’s the best use of them on second thought.
–reimagined as a translucent flower rather than a mushroom, which I think it was in the original concept. The link to this one’s original image appears to be broken as well.
Bearded Iris –
Bulb Trees –
Tulband –
Various–Weeping Veil –
What is the status on the Ndibs trees again? Doesn’t look like the updated versions are in Tamriel_Data.
What we need:
Rocks (as above, in that they won’t be replaced) and ground textures are taken care of for the time being, though the ground textures will, I think, need some further adjustments.
Flora will have to wait for another day, as it’s getting late here. The three plant replacements here are still those I consider most in need of replacing, as the green of those plants is (in my opinion) far too saturated to work for Aanthirin. Some more concepting might also be useful to get a better idea of how the end product should look like. At the moment, I’m not entirely sure how much green we want to keep in our palette, among other things.
Edit: Ah right, the other important aspect to consider for implementation is splitting off a section file to work on for the west bank of Aanthirin, and I’m not sure where best to discuss that so, so as not to scatter information far and wide, I’ll just post it here for now:
The green area is what I would suggest. (I didn’t look too closely at the cells bordering Vvardenfell, so if any of those are currently unedited by TR they should be left out). They are the required minimum for the Aanthirin visual update and work on Andothren (which is another subject, of course).
The addition of the yellow area would allow for further changes to Menaan, and the addition of the red area would allow further edits to the incomplete buffer zone. That being said, I’m rather hesitant on those additions. They are by and large Roth-Roryn territory and, while Roth-Roryn is mostly fine as is, I’m still hesitant to do too much with it when it still hasn’t been properly discussed. I would rather they remain in their incomplete state for the time being and that we create a new section for them when we’re ready to open up work on Roth-Roryn.
2014-01-08 21:55
2 hours 29 min ago
I don't quite know how the cell borders are atm, but I would rather have the mouth of River Thirr be part of the Ascadian Bluffs and have the Aanthirin -- and the visual update -- start a cell or two south of Gol Mok and OE
2015-08-10 20:50
21 hours 54 min ago
Ah yeah, the cells north of -20 are really there for any transitional work we may need to do between the Ascadian Bluffs and Aanthirin, more as a just-in-case addition. As Gol Mok will need some rearranging anyway as well as – at the very least – Andothren’s Dwemer ruins, I thought it best to include that area.
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