All that follows is my own take on things. Since the Hist, and their deliberate use or disuse feature in all of the Dres questline proposals, I think we need to (re)discuss the Hist. Nobody can really agree on how to handle the Hist and the ususal Lore suspects are no help (although I think MK did toss out a few good ideas of them, they‘re not really thought through nowadays).
I don‘t like the prevailing interpretations where the Hist are one of the two masterminds behind all of the TES setting, with the other one being Anumidium. So, with that said...
Hist Physiology
The Hist are pseudonatural beings. It doesn‘t exactly matter if they are from the Twelve Worlds of Creation that preceeded Nirn, from a previous Kalpa, a previous Amaranth, or from beyond the original Outer Void.
Just as Dagoth Ur is not dead, the Hist are not real. When they entered Nirn, or stayed put where Nirn formed around them, the new reality was incapable of sustaining their original form. Nirn was simply too small and too fast or they were too unwieldy and static. Although there was no higher intellect at work, the Hist were transformed into/rendered as trees.
What does that tell us?
- The Hist are unmoving<
- The Hist are branching
- The Hist are rooted.
The Hist are vast soul repositories, self-contained Towers of their previous reality, containg oceans of sap memories. There is no governing intellect at work, they are simply too big and their real mind moves at molasses.
Since Nirn is not aligned with their reality, in their original form they were bleeding their memories from their pores, mortally wounded simply by being real. Some unlucky(?) not-yet lizards licked the sap and by the sheer weight of the souls they absorped were forced into sapience by the rules of the new reality.
Bleeding off their own soul mass into animals was how the Hist were able of sustaining themselves. Since they were realized as a vast forest, the souls that died in their swampy realm returned to themselves instead of going to the new reality‘s Dreamsleeve.
Thus, by incarnating themselves into sapient beings, the Hist are able to permanently exist in the form of trees. All thinking, all acting that is ascribed to the Hist by Argonian religion is the Hist‘s instincts and vague, distant feelings coloured in their incarnations‘ experience (with three exceptions).
Hist Offspring
First are the Argonians, who consider themselves „People of the Root“ and worship the Hist alternatively as their creators, their ancestors, or as themselves.
The Argonians are the most direct descendants of the Hist, with no other sapience inbetween. Although a cultural tradition, ingesting Hist sap ties young Argonians to their Hist, they receive additional soul mass, instincts, vague, fleeting memories. Argonians who never ingested Hist sap may retain some of the instincts their parents had, but they are no longer Hist-descended and thereby defective in some way, although they might feel less lacking and more unburdened (liberated?) by the lack of additional soul mass. It is possible for them to align them to the Hist later in life, with no complications.
When an Argonian shaman ingests enough tree sap the correct way, they gain access to the memories and knowledge contained within the Hist by the way of visions (until the additional soul mass is bled off and returns to the Hist).
Since they usually conduct this ritual when looking for answers and the Hist are not capable of thinking, they can only find means but not ends. The Kothringi were extinguished by a shaman‘s malice, not a Hist master plan. The Argonians might not be „free“ like the other races are, but they are still masters of their own decisions.
It is not possible for non-Argonians to ingest Hist sap and remain sane. Since other races are fully realized, their souls are whole and the additional soul mass causes an unfocused influx of memories and instincts, leading to temporary dementia and caustic visions until enough soul mass is bled off again. In most cases, this will be the soul mass of the Hist. If it is not, a Hist-aligned „hybrid“ is created. Since this is entirely spiritual, no physical change can be observed, although these „hybrids“ are capable of cross-breeding with Argonians.
Hist saplings are a new development since the Marukhati broke the towers. With the additional influx of Tamrielic Souls into Black Marsh, some remained with the Hist whose ternary fission takes the form of tree saplings, who can grow as trees are wont to do.
Hist History
Unkown – The Hist enter reality. Unable to sustain themselves, they bleed themselves off into nearby fauna, uplifting them into Argonians.
Merethic Era – Topal the Pilot explores the coast of Argonia, meeting some of the natives, both beasts and men. His reports fuel the mistaken believe in some of the Aldmeri circles that the Hist are of the same stock as the moving trees of Valenwood.
First Era – Tribal Beasts and men live in Argonia. The Kothringi and Lilmothiil create culture, the Velothi migrate into the northern valleys. Some of the Nedic tribes settle around the rivers.
First Red Moments – The Hist consciously experience brief moments of lucidity when the Dwemer vanish and the Tribunal rewrites history to allow for their existance as gods. Shocked by what they perceive as hostility, they lash out in panic. Led by an echo of this panic, Beast magicians direct root growth to drown the Arnesian jungle, forcing the Cantemiric Velothi to leave their ancestral holdings and join Dres society.
Middle Dawn – The Marukhati selectives break time, allowing the Hist enough „time“ to think. While Cyrodiil turns into an egg that conquers the stars, a Beast looks at a fractalizing tree-god and asks „Why did you create us?“. When a thousand discordant voices reply somethin akin to „We did what now?“, modern Argonian identity is created.
At the same untime, the Dres (then impoverished nomadic scavengers) approach the unfolding fractals with a proposal of their own. Centuries ago, they approached the Sload for technology to make the plains they were pushed into hospitable, but the designs they traded their souls for lack manpower. Slave raids are required to keep the water pumps and paddys running, but it‘s just enough to scrape by.
The deal is simple: Beasts without much of a will to fight back or flee in return for Dunmer souls and bodies. The Hist, for the first time understanding what they are and intrigued by adding something new to themselves instead of mere eternal recycling, agree. The Beasts are not consulted.
The Dres gain knowledge of slave bracers and the Hist-incarnates are instinctively more passive and withdrawn. By sheer force of the deal, all souls that are released in Black Marsh can now be assimilated by the Hist.
The other First Era – Even though the distinct knowledge of the Hist passes into history, shamanic tradition and oral history picks up the slack and the modern Argonians form out of distinct Beast tribes.
Argonia is formally conquered in 2840 and reorganised by the Reman Empire, but the shamanic tradition remain aloof and untouched.
The Deshaan turns into the bread basket of Morrowind by easy slavery, which enables it to prolongued and unexpected resistance against the encroaching Remans.
The second Era – Life in Argonia goes on. Memories of the The Thrassian Plague enable an Argonian shaman to create and spread the Knahaten Flum, leading to a continent-wide death not seen since the first Era. Entire races go extinct, the Kothringi and Limothiil among them.
The third Era - Life in Black Marsh goes on. Since interprovincial travel is encouraged, especially among the Mages Guild and the Legion, Argonians spread far and wide, and citizens of other provinces settle in Black Marsh. The Dreamsleeve and the Hist repositories exchange souls at a rapid pace.
Third Red Moment – When the Nerevarine banishes the Heart of Lorkhan, time breaks and the Hist experience another, brief, moment of panic. Argonians, driven by the need to protect something they interpret as their home province, migrate back to Black Marsh. Which comes in handy during the Oblivion Crisis and its exagerrated retallings are used for political propaganda by the people now in charge.
2016-01-18 02:44
7 years 2 months ago
What was the Hist’s reaction to the Warp in the West?
2016-01-19 19:35
2 months 3 weeks ago
What’s the relation to the Dreamsleeve and the Hist? Are they similar in structure? Are they perhaps the same thing?
2015-09-28 20:13
2 years 8 months ago
That was strictly contained to the Iliac Bay, so it kind of passed them by. Same with the activation of Numidium in the second era, all two times. The Underking was not Lorkhan.
Functionally the same thing, the Hist are containing their own, localised version. You can't just communicate through it (only receive), because it's so choke full of soul mass, whereas the Dreamsleeve is bigger, not localised around tree mini-towers, and generally emptier since a lot more people incarnate all the time.
If the Hist were to ever die, their souls would get into the Dreamsleeve like normal, it would just render memospores a whole lot more complicated due to the case of spiritual indigestion it would get.
2016-01-19 19:35
2 months 3 weeks ago
Been poking around in TESO to see what other tidbits I can find on this. (Post on my main TESO PR site: http://www.teso-rp.com/forum/m/9324623/viewthread/28309390-hist-argonians/post/122863003#p122863003 ) Turns out a new Black Marsh dungeon was released the beginning of this month. The premise seems to be that the Hist are a hivemind. In the event a tree goes a little nutty, it will be broken off from the others and “lobotomized” as a way of “killing” it... More on that dungeon here as released officially by TESO: http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2016/07/19/loremasters-archive-the-ruins-of-mazzatun
And beyond playing through ithe dungeon myself (working on that), the next best thing I have to what that new dungeon is like is this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiIjw2HRxlg
I’m told there’s more lore about Hist in the novel The Infernal City, but I haven’t read it myself. Can anyone here speak to that?
ANYWAY, long story short is another possible backstory to the soul exchange could be Hist internal politics. Perhaps the trees made deals with the Dres so that the Dres would be taking the Argonians of a rogue tree, in order to weaken it or somehow isolate/exile its corruption. A crazy tree might be very interesting to deal with at some point, with a twisty ruin like Mazzatun.
2016-01-19 19:35
2 months 3 weeks ago
Going to throw this link up here, as being my personal take on how the Hist could be seen and handled: http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/asset/peculiar-case-murder-yakum-fel
2016-10-01 19:13
6 years 6 months ago
edit: oops… my glasses and a whole day of aggravated work must have made me dizzy. Consider my post to be false, completely bogus and herewith retracted. Shame on me.
The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.
2016-12-01 00:58
8 years 1 month ago
Hey everyone! I’ve read some Dashaan and Dres threads, but I may have missed some details that render my suggestions irrelevant.
I think, from the perspective of Morrowind and the Dres questline, there should absolutely be moments that invoke empathy for the Argonian slaves under Dres rule. Empathy from their pain in slavery, stories of lost loved ones (in a cold reptilian argonian way of course), and from their madness resulting from detachment from the Hist.
However, despite there being those moments, which in my opinion will be critical, there should be none of that for the Hist itself. It should be mysterious, alien, and from the outside, seemingly lacking in any kind of similar emotional thought process that Dark Elves or humans (or even to a leser extent Argonians themselves) would have. As a user in another thread said, it should be alien, confusing, and very frightening and threatening to those in power in the house, and I think there should be no attempts on the part of the TR team to clue the player in to the way it works that would invoke any kind of empathetic response to the Hist. The only place we should perhaps see a viewpoint of the Hist that is not fear is in the Argonians who the player could perhaps gather small clues from.
Edit: And I realize you guys already have good idea of what the quest line will be about and where it will go. I guess I’m just trying to desribe a feeling that I think would be cool.
2015-08-10 20:50
2 weeks 2 days ago
Very very late in replying to this, but eh, better late than never.
Hist Physiology
I agree with all of this
Hist Offspring
While you were not suggesting it, I want to mention that I would like to see something more done with shamans than them being sort of Hist conduits.
On Kothringi being extinguished, I'm not against it being a shaman's malice, but do want to make an attempt at linking the Kothringi to the Hist. Perhaps Kothringi were Nedes who ingested Hist sap in a controlled matter, or perhaps an irregularity in the effects of Hist sap consumption -- triggered by Hist becoming aware of local Nedes -- that created a new race, more radically a Hist 'attempt' to create a new lifeform in the imperfect form of local Nedes, heavily influenced by Argonian forms the Hist are more used to, or perhaps something else.
Either way, the new experiment (an unconscious one) failed; an incompatibility developed which manifested as a contagious disease, spreading first throughout the Kothringi population and then carrying over to other populations. The Argonians, naturally being compatible with the Hist, were unaffected. It's possible the flu also did not hit elf populations as heavily, as Dunmer are mentioned as having continued their slave raid, though on the other hand Senchal and Bosmer (Oreyn Bearclaw and the Cult of Z'en) are stated to have suffered under the flu.
Hist History
As I mentioned on IRC, I personally like the idea that Black Marsh used to extend over what is now the Deshaan Plains, but the Cantemeric Velothi largely cleared the jungles, which led to the stories that would inspire The Seed by Marobar Sul. With that concept, the final destruction of Cantemeric society (by then having shifted to the Arnesian Jungle as the plains desertified behind them) may have been a result of those actions, though a reaction to Red Moment is no less viable.
As far as the Hist deal is concerned, I was musing about trying to align it with Red Moment or its aftermath, but that is probably indeed too early. Slave raids would never have been a sustainable souce of slaves by themselves; the Dres would have heavily relied on Khajiit traded by Hlaalu (which at the time was the weakest Great House, relatively newly formed, but no doubt profited greatly by the Dres).
I am fine with your interpretation of the Argonian recall in the Oblivion Crisis. Another alternative is that the recall happened as a reaction to the invasion; perhaps due to its nature (opening portals to another world deep within Hist territory) and the Hists' different perspective of time, the Hist experienced a very early flinch response, which manifested as Argonians feeling called home to Black Marsh.
To other comments in the thread:
-as far as checking the novels for any worthwhile lore, the Imperial Library has these two pages which are quite handy.
-I completely agree with Patali on how best to portray Hist, but don't think the Hist themselves should actually be directly portrayed by in TR at all.