During the last meeting we had a drawn-out argument about the backstory of the Foul Murder mural (this one). Unfortunately it was almost impossible to bring across my point because I had to talk to 4-5 people at the same time bringing up completely different arguments. So I decided to make this post to compile my point of view.
The situation:
As you can read in the link above the mural is a heretical mural hidden in a secret chamber in the undercrofts of Necrom. It was created during the Red Moment and when attempts were made to destroy it it kept popping up in populated places. Therefore, the Tribunal decided to 'move' it to Necrom and lock it up in the chamber.
The problem:
My problem with this backstory is the last point - more specifically the place they hid it being Necrom. In my opinion Necrom is a terrible place to hide the mural because it's a pretty large city which is visited by a sizeable share of the Dunmer population at least once during their lifetime (in the course of pilgrimages/cremations of relatives).
This opinion has sparked some counter points each of which I would like to address now.
- "Necrom is a safe place though."
What would an ideal location look like? I guess it should be controllable by the Tribunal and there shouldn't be many people. Neither of which applies to Necrom. The Tribunal only directly control their respective cities; any other Temple places - including Necrom - are controlled by members of the Temple. And barring the largest cities Necrom is probably the most frequently visited city in all of Morrowind.
The bottom line here is: there are other Temple installments (like Necrom) which are frequented by way less people than Necrom. Those would be a lot safer than Necrom.
- "It never popped up in an unpopulated place."
It's very likely though that it popped up in a much less crowded city than Necrom. They could have kept it there. And most importantly: even if it's a populated place... it doesn't have to stay populated. The Tribunal are living gods now (not actual gods, but they just laughed a Daedra prince into the face); nothing is stopping them from creating a little flood or mudslide or earthquake which destroys most buildings of the city. Rebuild the city nearby afterwards and create a cloister in the original spot to commemorate the disaster. And just like that the mural is in a secluded spot.
The bottom line here is: there are certainly less populated places which can also be made even less populated.
- "It doesn't matter because the mural is safely locked away anyway."
That's propably right. However, this argument has absolutely nothing to do with Necrom. The very same safe chamber could have been built in any spot the mural popped up. Unless of course the mural very conveniently popped up in a secret, hidden chamber below Necrom that already existed before (probably to hide Sotha Sil's porn collection). But as we saw in the counter point above would mean that it doesn't only pop up in populated places and it could be hidden in another secret chamber in a more secluded spot.
The bottom line here is: that chamber could have been built in any temple/monastery/cloister.
- "They had to keep it's appearances as low as possible."
If that's really a concern, then hide the mural in the second or third spot it pops up. As soon as they realized it would always return, the Tribunal should decide to hide the mural exactly were it was at right that time. Now maybe Necrom was really conveniently the second or third spot it popped up, but still there's an extremely high chance that the next spot is better than Necrom (see above). So, one more 'move' and it can be hidden in a much better place.
The bottom line here is: it could have been hidden on the second appearance then it would have appeared the least often.
- "It was very hard to artificially trap it in Necrom, why move it again?"
Okay, now we're getting to the point where it is assumed that the Tribunal deliberately 'moved' the mural to Necrom (either by making some arrangement with it's creators or enlisting the ancestors or whatever). Which makes the 'move' even more stupid because they could have 'moved' it anywhere else: the caldera of Red Mountain, the edge of the Argonian jungle, some of Sothy Sil's creations, you name it. But of all options they picked one that they can neither control directly nor is absolutely deserted. That makes even less sense than them stopping when it pops up in Necrom by chance.
The bottom here line is: if the Tribunal decided to hide the mural in Necrom and not anywhere else, they must be extremely stupid and/or arrogant.
- "They spent years 'moving' it by trial-and-error, that can't go on for decades."
So, the Tribunal did not decide to hide the mural in Necrom and just stopped when it popped up there. Before that it must have appeared in dozens if not hundreds of cities and villages all over Morrowind. That means the damage has already been dealt. It was not contained (by keeping it in the second or third spot) and after spreading it all over Morrowind like that what's even the point of trying to keep it contained? Chances are most Dunmer already saw it or at least heard of it. At that point 'moving' it around for some more time doesn't make a difference. But maybe it can at least be hidden in a really good place (better than Necrom).
The bottom line here is: once the mural has popped up enough times, more appearances don't make any difference any more.
- "Maybe the Tribunal couldn't 'move' it once it appeared in Necrom."
Well, let's disregard that we're taking about almost-gods who can't destroy a stupid mural. The good news is that they don't even have to. According to one counter point brought up earlier the mural is sentient enough to differentiate between being locked away behind a wall with a magically hidden door and being locked away behind an actual wall (with no doors leading into the chamber). At that point the mural would disappear and pop up somewhere else (which is also why it can't simply be bricked in). So, as you can see all the Tribunal have to do is brick it in and it will pop somewhere else.
The bottom line here is:
I don't know even more...
- "Noone is going to see the mural if it's guarded by badass Ordinators in Mourning."
I'm just including this here to point out that putting Ordinator guards in front of an ordinary wall would probably raise a lot of questions. It would probably would also do if Ordinators are guarding a door of noone knows what's behind it.
The bottom line here is: don't put guards in front of the entrance - fill the chamber with badass skeletons instead.
I think these were all the counter points brought up during the Discord discussion. I tried to address them all as clearly as possible, but if you feel there are more points or one of my points is not clear yet, feel free to comment about your thoughts.
Now of course I don't want this to be unconstructive criticism. Thus...
My suggestions:
The basic gist of the situation is the following: the Tribunal wanted to have the mural in Necrom and Necrom alone! There are a few options to explain why.
- The Tribunal made the mural (reminder of their guilt, reminder of their inability to change people's belief...)
- The mural popped up after being destroyed four or five times at which point Vivec (?) decided that it must be important and they should keep it
- Who knows (as in just don't tell why or be ambiguous about it, and let the players come up with their own explanations)
Or just let the players decide during dialogue choices (at which point the current backstory could be an option, because if players want it to be like that, just let them).
2016-01-19 19:35
2 months 1 week ago
Honestly, I am exhausted and to the point of not caring. We had an hours-long discussion about it in which you misunderstood or ignored a great deal of our points. I will try one last time to explain how this thing works, but after that I am really done with it--you either like it or you don't.
The mural is a creation of the Dragonbreak at the time of the Red Moment. That means it has many creators but also just the one, many reasons for being and jumping around, but also just one, and that it exists in several times, but also none, now that the Tribunal has locked it away.
AKA, absolutely anything is possible, and fuck logic.
But if you need logic, then here are some of the common themes behind the mural's creation--
1) It carried a lot of the Tribunal's guilt in it.
2) It carried the Tribunal's wishes for a better future, selfishly and unselfishly, in it.
3) It carried a lot of the doubt and confusion of the people in it.
4) It carried the only record that may redeem Alandro Sul, who is literally and metaphorically broken up into a million pieces because of the Tribunal's actions.
5) It carried the anger and pain of Azura, Dagoth Ur, and those who believed Nerevar was murdered in it.
6) It carried the memories of Nerevar--the victim, the martyr, and the one who (at least is made out to be) the only one with the good of Morrowind close to heart and hand.
Now taking all this in mind...TES is reality shaped by the beliefs of the people, not beliefs shaped by the reality constraining them. And so, all these conflicting and very powerful emotions, beliefs, and thoughts--this magical energy from the chaotic Dragonbreak--are in the mural, are actively influencing it, inside and outside of time. It is this that kicks the mural around.
When it reappears in the real-time, it follows these echoes of chaotic energy, like calling to like. It's own nature, caught in a state of never-resolved, attempts to manifest and solve itself by re-appearing again and again, like the Nerevarine, or stories with a grand theme. It is magical in nature, but it is also philosophical, as TES is again, symbolism coming alive.
Sometimes that means it shows up in a populated area, the anger of the Dissident factions (not Dissident priests necessarily) who want the Tribunal brought to justice and their betrayal known to all. Sometimes it shows up in a remote location, somewhere where the Tribunal can bury it, but they are not its only masters, so it does not stay there for long. Sometimes it shows up at Red Mountain, with the intention it is a monument of the sorrowful things that took place there. Other times it shows up in a nonexistent world, like the imagination. Very deux machina, because that is what it "is", this symbol of what people believe (in relation to the Red Moment), their conflicting opinions and desires for what will make everything in Morrowind "all right again" after the Star-Wound.
But these beliefs and emotions will never die until these key themes of Morrowind are no more, aka, after the Nerevarine prophecies are fulfilled. And so the mural can never be destroyed, because it is constantly in the hearts and minds of the Dunmer people. If the Dunmer people tried to destroy it, it simply reappears elsewhere, as unpopular but resilient ideas will when you try to quash them in a populace. Whenever the Tribunal tried to destroy it personally, it was like trying to destroy a piece of themselves, like trying to cover over a crime by just not thinking about what you did, or stopping an addiction by pretending its not an addiction. Never works, does it? In a sense, it is a record of their guilt, intentional and unintentional. But it is not JUST that, because it is not just the Tribunal who create and perpetuate it.
Yet just like those nagging thoughts, it can be influenced, guided to go certain ways, invited to resolve itself by certain means. This is how the Tribunal moved it. After many attempts to destroy it in their Space-that-is-not-a-Space--which may or may not have ever been fully known to mortals, and the mural only appeared once in "real world" for we know--the Tribunal realized that in order to destroy the mural, they had "heal" it, this wound they left on the world through their betrayal and pride, the wound others exacerbated by their anger and refusal to forgive and accept, the wounds caused by the Temple's complacency and letting horrible things continue in the name of a broken goodness/godhood.
Vivec, knowing what he does about the Nerevarine prophecies and CHIM, knew it would take many attempts and many years for that healing to come to pass, and that many would not understand and try to interfere while that was happening. So the Tribunal put it in a vault that was close to the hearts of their people, where it would be safe/stagnant, guided by tradition, yet just in touch enough with the creative energies of Red Mountain (though the Ghostfence) that it would not collapse from lack of "attention" and pop up elsewhere, and finally, of course, in a location the Nerevarine could find it when it was the right time to resolve it all.
And so while all the other placements may have seemed random to mortals and that it was only finally tamed by some great act of the Tribunal, they only know half of the story...
Why Necrom? Because Necrom is where dead things go to rest, where spiritual duty calls, where the past is honored and cherished, where Veloth left Morrowind and started his ultimate journey towards a nirvanic enlightened state. All these themes of truth, balance, death creeping in, redemption, reincarnation--these things just similar enough to the mural's magical and spiritual eneries to call it to that place, and just different enough to trap it and stop the cycle of reappearing until it could be fully resolved. On an emotional level, it's like the abuser the Stockholm Syndrome victim kept going back to, or the one true love the starry-eyed lover kept returning to rescue. On a molecular or physical level, it's like magnets or polarities binding. If Necrom was blown up tomorrow and its true nature and magical footprint changed, then maybe the mural would start hopping around again, but the Tribunal were fairly sure it wouldn't and they have so far been correct and so there it stays.
And there the Nerevarine will find it, and fulfills the last, unspoken piece of the prophecy, by touching it and making their choices and the whole shebang. And the mural will become whatever it becomes as a result--resolved and put in some happy place, or just a wound opened wider that is then blown to oblivion by the Red Year.
If that doesn't settle you, then I can't think of anything that will, and I'm pretty much done debating it, either way...
2015-08-10 20:50
3 days 15 hours ago
My arguments were roughly the first one and the third one in your post.
As far as the first point is concerned, parts of Necrom are in as complete control of the Tribunal as anywhere else is, and parts of Necrom have no people, certainly living people. As far as controllable locations, perhaps I'll give you Sotha Sil, but Almalexia and Vivec have not directly controlled their cities in a long time, and have always relied heavily on their subordinates to see to their affairs. Basically the Tribunal used to range far and wide adventuring and helping Dunmer and stuff, and then effectively became recluses. I don't have the impression they ever spent a long time directly adminstering their cities between those extremes. Necrom has, next to Kagrenac's tools and the Heart of Lorkhan, arguably the single most important object the Tribunal currently possess; the machine that powers the ghostfence. Necrom, and not the cities of Vivec, Almalexia or arguably Sotha Sil (it's always somewhat of an exception), is the city the Tribunal as a whole -- and arguably Dunmer as a whole -- are ultimately most invested in.
Bottom line: parts of Necrom -- especially the catacombs -- are utterly deserted, and Necrom is already of absolute importance to the Tribunal.
As far as the third point is concerned, yeah, there are plenty of other places that would be just as safe. But where the mural is under Necrom, it's absolutely safe. If there are several locations where the mural is absolutely safe, which of those locations it is located in becomes irrelevant.
Something TR has often failed to communicate properly is that Necrom is a necropolis. Necrom is where sleeping dogs are left to lie. It has gathered many secrets over the millennia. That is essentially the theme of the city; life only happens on the surface, it's just a facade, while the core of the city is its catacombs, and its primary population the (un)dead.
Beyond those points, I also see merit in the sixth argument; I don't think the mural always appears in populated places, but there is the risk that it could. There is also the risk that it ends up in a less frequented area and is seen by the local Velothi or caravaners or whoever passes by for a long time before the Temple hears about it. The possibilities as to where the mural ends up are endless, so at a point it becomes desireable to weigh risk and reward. The mural probably never appeared in the middle of Plaza Brindisi Dorom, but next time it gets removed perhaps it could. The chance would by miniscule, but still there. Perhaps the Temple had a lucky streak and was able to remove the murals before too many people saw them, but they would have no way of knowing if the streak would hold. As, for the reasons desribed above, Necrom is one of the Temple's securest strongholds, having the mural appear there, deep within the catacombs far beyond where tourists ever go, would be one of the best results they could hope for.
As far as hiding it where it appears is concerned, the places it appeared in might have been outside of the Temple's oversight and could not be effectively monitored over a long period of time, or the murals could have appeared in places where attempts to hide it would draw curiosity and attention. I agree with your point that guards should not guard the entrance to the mural room for much the same reason.
While I'm at it, I might as well clarify that I don't think the Tribunal should have any power over where the mural goes if it is erased, I do think that nothing is stopping the Tribunal from erasing the mural from Necrom to try their luck at another location except for good counsel, and that the mural should, in fact, be walled into its chamber.
As I stated in the meeting, either way I think the backstory of the mural should be left largely ambiguous in-game. As always, it's important to plan things out further than they are intended to be implemented so that the player has the impression that there is an internal logic to the world, even if the player does not have enough information to make out what the internal logic is. How much of the planning should make it into the game is a separate discussion. If we really can't find common ground, it's not that bad to have a 'single truth' from which to extrapolate the various diverging narratives. That said, as we're discussing this on the forum rather than in the meeting where there was other stuff on the agenda to worry about, I personally have no issue trying to take the time to find common ground.
2016-01-17 01:30
4 hours 22 min ago
So much energy being wasted on a something so insignificant
2016-01-24 22:04
9 months 3 weeks ago
Sooo TL;DR: what I said!
2016-01-19 19:35
2 months 1 week ago
You wanted an in-depth explanation, so that's what you got. :P
2016-01-24 22:04
9 months 3 weeks ago
All I want is a good reason why the mural is in Necrom.
And that is a good reason. If that goes into the quest, I'll be happy.