Proposed Agenda
Sundered Scar Template Meeting
While the usual agenda points are listed below as is tradition, this meeting will follow the template meeting format, focused on Sundered Scar, with an outlook on starting work on the region rework early, depending on how the discussion goes. It will take place at the pacific timeslot, 2 AM UTC.
Future Releases
- Sorting out which cites have which guild halls
- Thieves Guild
- Morag Tong
- How much do the Temple and Cult need this?
- Resolving more Imperial Cult issues, perhaps up to a Template Meeting
- IC shrines start appearing in Thirr Valley and need a better overarching characterisation
- The faction endgame
- Same thing for the Psijjic Order.
- Requires Infragris and a whole lot of lore-aware people.
- Thirr Valley NPCing preparations
Future Releases Part II
- Where should the low/mid/high level quests go?
Tamriel Data
- Discussing cross-province armor and weapon stats
Meeting Notes
Disclaimer: This meeting was used to propose content in Sundered Scar. The actual viability of this content as Sundered Scar will be discussed in the next template meeting.
First, quickly go over the current implementation of the region. This stage is about taking stock of what we have to work with.
1. what does it currently look like
Mostly Bitter Coast, Grazelands in the east, a patch of AI near Alt Orethan around Tilmeth manor, WG mountains on the border with some MA areas dotted around the border. There’s a large empty lake where Ruinous Keep was originally located before being moved east.
2. what is in it. (Settlements? Whose?)
The only town is Darvon. There is an Indoril manor, two Daedric ruins (only one with an extensive exterior), the planned player stronghold of Id Vano, three Dwemer ruins and some scattered shacks, an egg mine, and a few caves, one leading to an underground Chimer stronghold, Baan Urlai, which was discussed in a past meeting. There are some yurts in the eastern Grazelands area. In the top right there’s the Inn Between and two egg mines.
What is the general purpose of the region? Why does it/should it exist?
1. What is its narrative role?
Neglected Indoril territory, a lot of focus on the Velothi population left to themselves. A lot of ancient ruins like Idaverrano.
2. What is going on there? (ie. is it challenging wilderness, or does it play an important role in commerce, pilgrimage, etc.?)
Relatively challenging wilderness (less so than Mephalan Vales, at least with the current concept of that region). Not much commerce, might be some pilgrimage though nothing there at the moment.
What is the identity of the region? This stage is about establishing the general appearance of the region.
1. Who inhabits the region?
The main population would be Velothi, with a heavy Temple presence. There would initially be almost no Indoril presence.
2. What are they doing there?
It’s a backwater. Velothi are mainly just getting by as they do. They might enjoy a bit of the freedom of not having much authority overlooking them.
3. Who used to inhabit the region (especially before the War of the First Council)?
This used to be part of the Chimer heartland, with major houses like Mora, Raathim and Indoril having a greater or lesser degree of presence there. (Mora dominated the region under Nerevar). Dwemer also lived in the region, especially under the First Council while relations were (more) harmonious.
4. What did they do there?
The Chimer rallied partly in this region against the Nord occupiers and were joined by the Dwemer in that. There would have been a lot of trade and cooperation between Dwemer and Chimer in the region under the First Council until the war happened. There might also be some history with the Morag Tong that will need to be explored more.
5. How densely populated is the regionand how is the population distributed?
The region is not densely populated (but should be more populated than it currently is), but aside from the scathes in the southwest the population would be pretty evenly distributed along the roads and coast.
What is the layout of the region? This stage is about discussing the implementation of the region in broad strokes.
1. How would the things within the region (dungeons, settlements) be arranged?
Towns would be along roads and coasts, the Ashlander yurts will be cut, more Daedric ruins (including the suggestion of giving the large existing exterior ruin a more proportional interior), more Dwemer ruins but probably nothing big outside of the locations on the border. Ancestral tombs, which the region currently lacks, and a few egg mines. Grottos, caves etc. are lacking.
OM smaller town and scattered ruins mostly dating to Nerevar’s time. There will be one new Chimer stronghold in the east. Id Vano, the player stronghold, is in the west and will end up a large location.
2. How do we want the player to experience the region in-game?
There will be more settlements, with some opportunity for Temple questlines including dissident priests, possible Tong content and bounty quests (given by the hetman). There will also be major dungeons in the region, such as Idaverrano and the Mora Ancestral Tomb. The region will have trouble reaching its full potential until surrounding regions are redone.
Some Misc. quests can be used to entice the player to explore the region and its dungeons.
An overview of various ideas an proposals discussed in the meeting. Note that some like the Gorne relocation are just proposals.
Gorne
The topic of Gorne came up and was discussed for two hours, but with no final decision. It will likely be discussed at the tail end of the second template meeting planned for next week, as it is relevant to Sundered Scar implementation and depending on the decision could have an effect on the surrounding region.
The proposal is to leave the current island of Gorne in place as planned, with the exception of removing the 6th House content, renaming the island and moving Triffith off of it. What would happen to the current settlement (turned into an Indoril chapel, a Velothi town or left alone) wouldn’t be affected by the proposal.
A new island of Gorne would be added north of Idaverrano’s current location to reflect its position as implied in Poison Song and, evidently, concept maps Ted Peterson used as a reference while writing the book. The island would be quite far from Sundered Scar (so its territory wouldn’t extend to the region) while also not being too close to Vvardenfell (so that it makes sense that Indoril didn’t get involved there) or Ammar, the next nearest stronghold.
Other related plans that were discussed (removing the peninsula southwest of Ammar and relocating the Daedric ruin there and moving Idaverrano further west) don’t really hinge on the proposal one way or the other, and will probably be discussed further in the second template meeting.
2016-03-14 23:18
6 days 14 hours ago
I'll say it again. Before the next meeting, because I will not be there. Please do not start redo at all. it's useless when there are still new regions to develop. Some things I think are important to keep in mind for the continuation of the project.
If we really go down this path, I would question myself really hard what the use is of creating assets for newer regions or creating assets for TR in general. I've been around when we endlessy redid the sacred east release, much like we are now redoing RR. In the end we have to create some sort of consensus on what we think is release ready otherwise we keep going in circles. What is considered ready now might not be the case in 10 years when we have variable water heights for example. Releases are not going to be perfect, but they keep the project running and as we saw with the latest (main) releases they tend to draw in some new or returning old developers.
Thanks for reading and I wish you a lot of wisdom in the next meeting. Although I fear that most of this is already set in motion and the group of people active on discord want to go down this road. The counter arguments are not listened to anymore.
Mwgek
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2018-08-13 09:52
8 hours 44 sec ago
The counter arguments have been said back and forth for years and entirely rely off the idea that all involved are stupid and ignorant.
>"If the project continues to run more then a decade again people will be redo' ing this redo in 2031."
If the project runs 10 more years they'll be hitting other things before the sundered scar, your comment here is baseless speculation with the express purpose of being unhelpful.
>"At least finish the ITO redo and RR redo before any more time is sunken into this."
As has been repeated ab-nauseam to you directly, the plan is for no work to be done until after DoD. That is a guarantee.
>"At least finalize TRV into a complete and coherent state before starting this."
Once again the proposal is for when TV interior and exterior complete, which will happen before DoD is actually finished. Leaving an entire release window where ext and interior devs have free a lot of free time on their hands.
>"At least have another new region asset ready before we set up assets for this in the asset browser."
Shipal Shin, the region after TV is in active exterior development owing to it being asset complete for exteriors. Strips is now working on the cavern set which is the only thing holding back interior development starting and the pace he's going will hopefully result in the first claims being finished before years end.
These three above points highlight a key ignorance in why this redo talk is happening, we arent randomly drinking the kool aid and ignoring the great decapitation, we are acting on having a window where two whole releases are going to be lined up back to back allowing devs breathing room to branch out. Which again has been said to you before.
>"Make clear that there is going to be 0 additions to NPC/Questing as this will block progress of the main releases pipeline."
One of the top reasons for the Sundered Scar to be redone outright is that the area lacks quests and that it needs them, so this notion is dead on arrival as it defeats the point of the exercise. As to "blocking release pipeline" as TV will be int/ext complete its quest claims will not be getting affected like DoD's were by RR redos. Once again, baseless fear mongering.
>"Set up an active development group, much like the redo-groups, for new regions. If lead/senior developers would put the same amount of effort on those regions more would have happend on making them real."
There is only one region being redone and its getting multiple meetings in discussion. So groups makes little sense. Indeed that just encourages more redos in future which is NOT viable. The interest here isnt setting a precedent for the future its exploiting an opportunity in the present.
>"Keep the region as is for now, because we cannot finalize it anyway and it will be under discussion again by new devs in 10 years or so. This would keep the work of former developers intact (who also made TR what it is today) and if the times comes (after a complete mainland) we come back to it when we have the manpower to focus on it as a main release."
As addressed at the top, baseless speculation and more over blatantly defeatist. Why make any new region if we think future devs are just going to consider it garbage. Since apparently the idea we are supposed to operate under is all these fancy new regions are just going to be considered dated trash by this team who we are expected to trust to redo both our work and the old teams. Irrespective of redo's this is a downright poisonous fucking attitude to carry into development and should be held in requisite low regard.
>"Yes this is a volunteer project, but not everything some individual or a small group of people wants to work on should be included in the group project that is TR. "
Lets talk about being a volunteer project.
If you wish to keep arguing that redo discussion is detrimental to new areas, come and actually discuss othreleth woods, or clambering moors, whose template meetings were held and whose asset threads where made and prioritized. I'm not going to say I'd prefer it, but I'd just as easily make and review claims in those new regions as I would for a redo of Sundered Scar, but thing is we have the assets to make a redo of the sundered Scar right now, we do not have the assets to make Othreleth Woods or Clambering Moors. Actually come and provide a solution, because just sitting around saying you think everyones work is going to look like shit in ten years isnt helping your case.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
2016-03-14 23:18
6 days 14 hours ago
I know your point of view and that of the rest of the people on discord just following the herd this way. I gave a solution so many times that if a group of lead/senior/developers would actively work together on a new region we could add content to a tabula rasa instead of cut content from existing areas.
I'll see what next weeks meeting is going to bring, but again a pacific meeting is the same people in the same room again. I have little hope for a good solution here.
Mwgek
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2016-01-25 21:01
7 hours 28 min ago
I wouldn't call it a herd mentality. There are devs that were burnt out that started making assets and motivated to work on DoD because of sundered scar. It's the worst region in the project. It has performance issues and is bittercoast minus shrubs. So boring, lags, And has no quest content. No body goes to this region. There is a reason why this region in particular was chosen first. And the goal is we slowly start finishing the indoril content alongside our main releases so that by the time we get to almalexia, we have all the surrounding area done. It's actually really good planning. It makes people excited and it make can of worms less terrible, in fact, a sigh of relief. People might be motivated to get almalexia done if it means they don't have to do all of the indoril lands a long side it.
2014-01-08 21:55
1 week 57 min ago
(In case I miss the next meeting:) I'm vehemently against moving Gorne or adding any islands in the Inner Sea
2016-01-25 21:01
7 hours 28 min ago
Any reason why? Just curious. Because we did find a solution to not cut anything but add more content and make TR consistent with Morrowind's books.
2014-01-08 21:55
1 week 57 min ago
1) making Inner Sea smaller by adding an island
4) unnecessary extra work is unnecessary extra work
2016-01-25 21:01
7 hours 28 min ago
We'd be making the inner sea larger as we are cutting back two penisulars (this is before gorne even came up in the meeting). A barely 3 cell island and expanding the bay means this island is smaller than firemoth, and already had more room to begin with. It's literally being put over top of menhir territory.
The Poison Song is the introduction of Gorne, and the only source we have on it in TES3. Oblivion mentions it briefly in a different location from what Morrowind said. And I don't think we should side with oblivion when it comes to contradicting lore if our own game says otherwise. Remember that Oblivion made Cyrodiil into generic green pastures rather than endless jungles that we heard so much about in Morrowind and in the PGE1.
Note that Tedders didn't write the book in Oblivion, so he wasn't contradicting himself. He only wrote the Poison song (when it comes to material on Gorne).
On the Imperial Library, Ted even noted that he based the story on a map they had pinned up in the studio. Unfortunately something happened to that map and the places that were on it he wrote into the Poison song didn't make it into the game. The geographic accuracy was very much intentional. By the time Oblivion came around, map still missing, Ted left and new writers came in, I'm not surprised that the location got changed (just like how Dark Brotherhood was taken, and make it evil). There is a difference between describing the island and setting the scene in the readers mind with the Poison song, and a book in Oblivion saying: Yeah gorne is here, it has bat racers, that's all the details you are going to get.
UESP is going to put it where Oblivion says it is, just like UESP is going to say there was a pact between the dunmer, nords and argonians while Molag Bal invaded and that all these microtransation flaming guar mounts are canon. Or that Skyrim's Creation Club mods are 100% canon. They document and update everything the official developers release.
If you fall into the Inner Sea and wash up on Gorne, and not Vvardrnfell, Telvannis, or if by luck float around the telvanni peninsular and don't wash up on Necrom, then it must be in the Inner Sea.
The story talks about House Dagoth. There wouldn't be a Dagoth presence on a small island out in the Padomaic. Their holdings are/were on Vvardenfell. This battle happened after house Dagoth was being hunted down. Gorne being close to Vvardenfell makes sense for this story to take place. The story even takes place on Vvardenfell later on.
With Sandas being the players way into Indoril House, it would make sense that he is somewhat connected to Sundered Scar for you to take it and do something with it, rather than being all the way in the Padomaic so far removed from Sundered Scar, or going to Mournhold (Still probably not going to care about Sundered Scar as nobody else had up to this point). Player being the nerevarine allows the indoril to finally restore Mora.
And as was said, Padomaic island and Ammar are not getting axed, they are staying and will continue to be important in their area of influence.
To touch on the more work comment. It is better to get this figured out earlier rather than later. Or else when we make indoril quests and almalexia then bring it up, we would be shooting ourselves in the foot.
And to repeat. Old Gorne island and Ammar are not getting cut. Their quests in tact. But it's a non issue anyways as current gorne isn't chapel like and also will be facelifted come the orethan region overhaul anyways.
Last thing I want to say is the padomaic island wasn't gorne even before oblivion came out. The really old TR maps have an island there by a different name. Kinda interesting that Oblivion decided to put an island in the same spot and say yep that's gorne when TR wasn't even going to be doing that. It was justified later when someone discovered gorne in oblivion and went back to edit this for the sacred east release.
Hopefully this is starting to paint the picture in everyone's minds just how weird of a decision the padomaic island being gorne is. It's almost blatant.
2014-01-08 21:55
1 week 57 min ago
Cutting the peninsula south of Ammar is a step in the right direction. Where's the other peninsula that'd be cut? I don't think it's obvious from the meeting notes or the map. In any case, if I were to support it, I'd still think that the placement of the Neo-Gorne is way too close to Vvardenfell.
I maintain that Tay falling into the Inner Sea and winding up in Gorne is simply the magic of the narrative and is not to be taken literally as a lesson of geography. (This regardless of Peterson's intentions or some concept map that's lost to time.)
I think that this case of Poison Song vs. Father of the Niben is similar to the case of Biography of Barenziah vs. Short History of Morrowind. TR simply chose to favor the accounts of the latter books.
I maintain that this is unncecessary, and that Gorne should stay as-is at least until the time we start the large scale Indoril area redos w/ Akamora et al.
2014-01-08 21:55
1 week 57 min ago
but yeah, when I say "I'm vehemently against X" just gimme a couple of weeks. I'll be okay with it, I reckon.
2017-10-08 01:57
3 weeks 4 days ago
tl;dr of Gorne stuff from Discord:
1) Old Gorne gets renamed to X, and is given a new Indoril Lord. 6th House stuff is removed from the island. No further edits to the island.
2) New Gorne is placed somewhere around Idaverrano in the Inner Sea. Indoril Triffith is relocated there with no other holdings.
3) Regarding Mora holdings: Idaverrano is shifter a bit to the southwest, while Id Vano is not affected and can still get renovated by the player. Velothi villages will still be tied to the Mora holdings.
4) Ammar retains its current Indoril lord, and no ext edits will be done to the town itself. The surrounding coastline will be swallowed by the Inner sea, including a daedric ruin. This is done so the Inner sea can be widened.
I would have NOT been fine with moving or redoing the Gorne exterior. However, the current proposal seems reasonable to me, as long as we don't interfere with Vvardenfell too much, and the Inner sea stays wide.
2018-08-13 09:52
8 hours 44 sec ago
"I maintain that this is unncecessary, and that Gorne should stay as-is at least until the time we start the large scale Indoril area redos w/ Akamora et al."
Just to re-iterate, the reason this is getting pushed alongside redoing SS is specfically because the presence of Gorne has to be accounted for local settlment planning/implimentantion. If we want to add the island (or more acurately the pros are judged to outway the cons) then its a better idea to just get all the pain and hassle out of the way early. This way we arent just setting ourselves up to need another REDO later. The ideal situation here is that SS along with AT can provide us a healthy backbone for the rest of the Indoril content moving forward.
"Cutting the peninsula south of Ammar is a step in the right direction. Where's the other peninsula that'd be cut? I don't think it's obvious from the meeting notes or the map."
I think it is on the map just not very visible, but this be the base idea. Keeps id Vano's little seculded cove but still takes the edge off.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
2017-10-08 01:57
3 weeks 4 days ago
Regarding the Sundered Scar, Othreleth, and the Clambering Moor: we'll have a regular time meeting (5PM UTC) on Sunday, where decisions will be made for the long-term planning of the project. The main goal is to remove roadblocks from the TV-SH-OW-CM path, and to make the development process as smooth as possible. DOD has suffered from us not following the proper development pipeline (assets-exts-ints-npcs-quests), so hopefully we can avoid falling into the same trap in the future.
Sundered Scar just had to be discussed first, because it's very likely that TR will be able to tackle that area in parallel with our regular content releases.