Preamble and disclaimers
This is a list of proposed edits to the current faction and region docs following a series of back and forth arguments on the topic of the first council on discord.
A lot of older planning was made with the plan to change the first council lore as presented by vanilla as revisionism by the tribunal with the “truth” being a wider number of houses. This was a blatant retcon with no hinting or basis in vanilla or PGE1 lore. However, the lore vanilla does give is scarce on details so is still a period ripe for alternate accounts or misinformation to exist within the context of ingame books and dialogue.
The goal of these edits first and foremost is to remove the retcons as fact for these factions and properly putting them within the sphere of alternates or interpretation, while not then going and making alternate takes implausible for a reader to believe.
A major caveat here is that some planning revolved around pushing house founding well after the consolidation of the tribunate, House Hlaalu noticeably got pushed into the 2nd era. This goes beyond making those turbulent first centuries events “ambiguous” and begs too many questions around lack of any record, for that reason any “ambiguous” material on the topic should be within a century of the first council too keep the events coherent.
Faction docs
Dres - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/state-house-dres
“In the late First Era, the various nomadic clans united under House Dres to keep from being swallowed by the Indoril behemoth, though many still maintain a loyalty to their particular minor house or clan rather than to the Dres identity proper.”
- removing this line here puts the formation nebulously within the range of being pre or post first council. Dres secrecy would make getting a date from them impossible, so making all info open to speculation. And of course, said secrecy means individual Dres clans will have their own “true” histories. Rest of the booklet doesn't need changing since those events are up to the readers judgement, something that should be continued during future Dres planning.
Hlaalu - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/state-house-hlaalu
“These houses were also able to sustain their independence when House Indoril began absorbing other houses into itself following the abolition of the First Council. While initially politically isolated, the absorption of a schismatic part of the Raathim lent legitimacy to their independence, bolstering an economic niche that the Indoril could not match. Said economic niche was their trade connections to Cyrodiil and beyond, including the import of Khajiit slaves traded by Catcatchers, river-going Nedes who harassed the shores of Ne Quin-al during the degenerate periods of the First Empire. The houses found their strength and survival in economics, when political will alone would have easily led to their extinction.”
-Removing this little line here just implies house Hlaalu may not have been a house on the first council, but doesnt say the they weren't, which is important as Narsis, which all sources point to being a city even in the early tribunate, specifically gets called their Clanstead, not just a city they happened to rule as was the case with the Raathiim in Kragenmoor and Ebonheart. Basic tweak to enable alternate in-universe accounts that could say Rathiim (or more accurately, their Mora masters) were the ones actually on the first council, while leaving it equally possible the Hlaalu always did and simply grew stronger after the fact.
“By the Second Era, these houses had coalesced under the leadership of Hlaalu, and were recognised in Dunmer social theology as one of the Great Houses, a worldview that has been anachronistically stretched back to the days of the Chimer.”
-this line overshoots from putting the founding as “maybe after post first council” to not even being first era and should be removed entirely.
Without these two quotes it is actually open to interpretation when House Hlaalu became a great house, in universe speculation could point to their city state as a contender or say that it was actually the Raathiim who house Hlaalu adopted that were the actual first council house with neither camp being able to fully prove the matter. The 1st to 2nd era matter is just odd and doesn't make much sense with the rest of the house's history. As an aside, House Hlaalu’s existing in the late first era and how their house's culture is informed by their land's occupation by the 2nd era is a gold mine for material that shouldn't be wasted, indeed that choice leaves a big space vacuum without much reason.
Indoril - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/state-house-indoril
“During the War of the First Council, Nerevar, Laesa, and their cohort rose in prominence, through deeds of battle throughout the war. During the Battle of Red Mountain, events took a drastic turn, and while the details of the Red Event remained murky, it became clear that a new social order was to come from these occurrences. The Dwemer were eventually defeated, and vanished shortly afterward. Nerevar was dead, and the Chimer became the Dunmer. However, Laesa(now styling herself as Alma Laesa or Mother Laesa),and two of her companions mysteriously retained their appearances, proclaiming themselves as the Tribunal, and the rightful rulers of the new nation of Morrowind.
Shortly after the Proclamation of the Tribunal, a particularly zealous and devout group, many of whom had previously been the hand-servants, secondary advisors, and shield-companions of the Tribunes in Their mortal history, set about proselytizing the newly ashened Dunmer and setting the order of Morrowind to right. Notable figures among them included Olms, Delyn, and Llothis. This group, which included most of the cousins of Nerevar, would become the House Indoril. They regarded their actions as continuing the goals of the Second Council in keeping the laws of Morrowind, and regard Indoril Nerevar as the first leader of their house.”
-House indoril very much existed during the first council due to Indoril Laesa's marriage to Nerevar being one of its pillars, the second set of events mentioned is actually the formation of the Temple not the House who had the biggest hand in its formation. Indoril history relies on this continuity and evolving role unlike the others where some questioning over their relationship with the first council is potentially warranted. Additionally the second council has been removed from most extant planning entirely. Tweaks to these three lines lines once again fix the issue neatly.
Redoran - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/state-house-redoran
"Like all great houses, House Redoran traces its origins to the First Council. It regards itself as the continuity of the Council in matters of war and the defense of Morrowind, the Dunmer and the Tribunal (who, as sovereign deities, are Morrowind and are the Dunmer). The House's Crab-Chiefs and War Councillors elect a Hortator to lead them in matters of war, and they therefore regard Indoril Nerevar as the first head of house.
During the Battle of Red Mountain, the members of the Second Council who became the fathers of Redoran came into battle on great war crabs, the greatest of which was the Skar, which died during the battle on the western slopes of the mountain. After the battle and after the proclamation of the Tribunal, the Redoran returned to the Skar to have their first council after the death of Nerevar. There, some who supported Sul Alandro split off, along with others from other old houses, and became the Ashlanders, while the rest formed what would eventually become the Great House Redoran. Over time, it took the form described on the previous page."
-This entire quote actually needs reformatting based on the Redoran template meeting the part about nerevar as house founder being a notable one, but bares noting how this also makes the dates definitive around some events.
The point about those who followed Alandro Sul also contains a major inaccuracy as to the nature of the Ash Clans as they existed separately before and of course after the first council. This is somewhat carried into the meeting material as well, where it makes it seem like Redoran vassals just became ashlanders, when they would have had to integrate with the ash clans to do that. There is something of a reccurant note of ash clans and minor houses getting treated interchangbly across a lot of planning which bares an investgation of its own.
Telvanni - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/state-house-telvanni
“Mostly absent from the Battle of Red Mountain was a faction of abstainers who did not join the Second Council but also did not take up arms against this. These were mainly magicians who had worked with the Dwemer to some degree. For the most part they did not know about the Dwemer's discovery of the Heart of Lorkhan. Among them were Fyr, and Dral, who were both alive at the time. House Telvanni is ultimately descended from this group, and therefore does not claim to be the legitimate heir of the Second Council, but rather is a separate scion of the First Council, which objected to the war with the Dwemer.
After the proclamation of the Tribunal, many of these abstainers were dubious of the new order and of the divinity of the Almsivi. Though they were unfaithful, they did not polemicize against the Temple, and after retreating to the far reaches of Morrowind, where they grew what would become Port Telvannis, they were allowed to live in peace. They adapted the sadrith plants of these isles for their homestead and became known as the Telvanni, the people of the towers. Their homestead took its name from this practice as well.
Over time, they spread out from Port Telvannis to other parts of northeast Morrowind, which was mostly undeveloped except by the Ashlanders. The Temple made no effort to stop them. However, after Vvardenfell became a preserve of the Temple, it would be against Temple law for them to plant on Vvardenfell proper without permission. This edict would ultimately be ignored, most flagrantly by Aryon, who also took lordship over the Velothi town of Vos.
Around the time that Dagoth Ur reappeared, Dral claimed the Magistership and was recognized as Archmagister. Dral is the second-oldest mortal in Morrowind, being of the same generation as the Tribunal (Divayth Fyr is considerably older than even Nerevar was, being born shortly before Morrowind was conquered by the Nords). Shortly after becoming Archmagister, he mysteriously disappears and is not heard from, except in the form of his Mouth, for the next 430 years. An all-out bloodbath is almost inevitable, as the ensuing power struggle to attain mastery over the House is set to reach a stunning climax."
-This entire history is up for revision due to the nature of the redo, just putting that disclaimer upfront
The chimeri mages as a entire group not supporting the first council is a little too far, as it would put them in the same niche as the Ashlanders IE to be purged and begs too many questions as to why they weren’t. It should be tweaked to suggest the group itself was split with some joining the first council and others going their own way, with how organised or encompassing this “proto telvanni” was being open to speculation, weather it was a group of individuals who having stayed loyal gained the temples favour and unified after to capitalise on it or as to if this group were already organised behind a master to start with and went to conquer those who had strayed.
Some elements not related to the first council stick out, Fyr being put contemporary to the nord conquest, this doesnt bare out since the man himself doesnt remember the dwemer so would have to either have been very young or not born at the time of the Battle of Red mountain (personally lean towards very young)
Region docs
Aanthirin - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-aanthirin
-no change
Amrun Ashlands - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-armun-ashlands
-all Lorem Ipsum
Deshaan Plains - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-deshaan-plains
-no history section, should a placeholder be put for discussion stuff like the idea of deforestation/desertification in the merethic?
Othreleth Woods - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-othreleth-woods
-All Lorem Ipsum
Roth Roryn - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-roth-roryn
-History is lorem ipsum
“Before the War of the First Council, the region was very sparsely inhabited by Velothi and (in the Velothi towers) proto-Telvanni, with some proto-Redorans.
After the War of the First Council and withdrawal of most of the proto-Telvanni to Port Telvannis, the Indoril took control of much of the region. The Indoril may have built at least one chapel in the region from which to govern the local population.”
Minor text tweak for the “proto” houses lines and the Indoril definitely built a chapel (Tur Julan).
Shipal Shin - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-shipal-shin
-all Lorem Ipsum
Thirr Valley - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-thirr-valley
-no change
Velothi Mountains - https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/region-velothi-mountains
-history is lorem ipsum
2015-08-10 20:50
1 month 3 days ago
The proposed changes generally look reasonable to me.
The late Indoril origin is one instance of late house formation I don't recall anyone advocating since the first drafts of the faction documents were made (which that line seems to be a remnant of); the house is explicitly mentioned and seems to be powerful (and in control of Almalexia) in the 36 Lessons well before the First Council. (Granted, one could argue the Lessons describe a reality where the Tribunal are already divine pre-Red Moment).
As such, and considering the fact that Indoril would have only become more powerful over time, Hlaalu and Dres being threatened by Indoril and trying to strengthen themselves can still be kept, but for simplicity's sake removing the lines from the documents seems reasonable. (They'd need rewording if they were kept).
For Redoran, I can sort of explain the issue of the ash clans: while the Ashlanders and various tribes definitely existed pre-Nerevar as distinct entities, it is apparent that a second schism occured between them and the House Dunmer as Alandro Sul's narrative of the events of Red Mountain spread among the Ashlanders during the ascension of the Tribunal. We don't really hear a detailed account of these events, but it seems likely that not all Ashlanders bought into the tales of Alandro Sul, and at the same time it seems likely that some House Dunmer would have heard of the accounts and come to believe them. This would have (in that version of events anyway) led to some level of population drift between the House Dunmer and Ashlanders.
In a version of events where House Redoran existed on the First Council, my personally preferred narrative would be that the great house basically formed around the expulsion of the Nords with various divided tribes joining together and forming councils, probably with the help of Nerevar. Even if the great house is supposed to be older than that, though, I'd think a lot of minor houses would have bolstered it in those circumstances. Post-Red Mountain, something similar would have happened with Ashlanders who accepted the Tribunal, whereas Redoran who accepted the tale of Alandro Sul would have, one way or the other, ended up outside of the house.
Long story short, yeah, this bit probably needs more discussion, but will need rewording at any rate.
On the Telvanni, there are a lot of changes to be made there. I'm skeptical about the Fyr and Dral stuff, and the neutrality to the War of the First Council does probably warrant a revisit, though I don't think it's entirely out of the question. (I'm not aware of the Temple ever advocating purging Ashlanders, despite their heresy being far greater than political neutrality and them being far easier targets than the Telvanni).
2018-08-13 09:52
7 hours 32 min ago
Gotta say the Ash Clans thing strikes me as a matter where canon material is getting twisted up with head-canon to a detrimental degree. Post-red mountain house-Dunmer skeptics going off and assimilating into Ash Clans is not the same thing as minor houses turning into Ash clans and a lot of this writing treats those as interchangeable things. Indeed this idea of ash clans and pre-council Houses being interchangeable bleeds over to other places like House Dres who are supposed to uphold pre-council House culture being characterized as ashlander-like in discussions when by all accounts the two were as different back then as they are with the other great houses now. Its a very odd reductionist take which goes against the claimed goal of adding nuance to the early history.
With telvanni though, "purging" was supposed to be Dagoth (freudian slip) over their alleged alliance with the Dwemer, though the Ashlanders are also second class citizens and have explicitly faced temple persecution over their rejection of the tribunal. Between those examples a group who stayed "neutral" over friendship with the Dwemer and then also went and rejected the Tribunal would not end up as a great house. House Telvanni would at least need to have aided the first council against the dwemer/dagoth to then not have the same fate.
That said, handbook stuff we seem on the same page. I'll give a few more days, just to see if anyones got an objection/suggestion.
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
2015-08-10 20:50
1 month 3 days ago
Agreed with being on the same page for the handbook stuff.
For the Telvanni, I see your point, though I think the rejection of the Tribunal is the main bit to tone down there. (I think more of a 'sure, you do what you want, just stay over there' attitude works better than outright rejection). For the ash clans and minor houses, yeah, that needs to be fleshed out more and adjusted. Though as far as the Dres are concerned, the idea was that they were closer to Ashlanders (those that built the Chimer strongholds as per the 'Importance of Where') than House Dunmer, but made the transition to House Dunmer as the great house was formed. (And as they incorporated the survivors of the Cantemiric Velothi, who were more settled). Something to shove off for future discussions I guess.
2018-08-13 09:52
7 hours 32 min ago
Okay so the indoril passages wording made clean edits harder than anticapted so I am putting the current progress here for double checking.The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs I've edited but the first I have a few questions about that I need answered before trying to write anything. The other two paragraphs in the Indoril history section are bad, but arent providing misleading information so I wont touch them (at least not during this work)
"House Indoril traces its origins to the first Chimer inhabitants of Resdayn, in particular a few notable figures that were present in Dunmer prehistory, prior to the Red Event. House Indoril was once a minor clan in the Chimer nobility, Indoril Laesa(who would become known as Almalexia), *being one of its’ members. **At some point, Laesa eventually became betrothed to Nerevar, a Chimer who claimed to be from another minor clan.
*I know these arent the details we want hard and fast, but she was supposed to be the head of the family or its last scion in our writings, right? I get this might be an area some vaguness could be desired, but it fills like downplaying her significance in that formative history which would be in error.
**Less uncertain, but wasnt this after (and because of) his taken over House Mora? Which carries over that it wasnt a “claim of a” as he was actually in a house which we know the name of at the time. (The murky history of his joining being somewhat irrelevant to this text and the narrative of house indorils formation)
Nerevar, Laesa, and their cohort rose in prominence, through deeds of battle throughout the unification of First Council and its centuries of rule. But events took a drastic turn, and while the details of the Red Event remain murky, it became clear that a new social order was to come from those occurrences. The Dwemer had vanished, Nerevar was dead, and the Chimer transformed into the Dunmer. However, Laesa (now styling herself as Alma Laesa or Mother Laesa), and two fellow companions of Nerevar mysteriously retained their appearances, proclaiming themselves the rightful rulers of Resdayn.
Shortly after the Proclamation of the Tribunal, a particularly devout group, many of whom had previously been the hand-servants, secondary advisors, and shield-companions of the Tribunes in their mortal history, set about proselytising the newly ashened Dunmer and setting the order of Resdayn to right. This group, (notable among them being Llothis, Olms, Delyn and many of the cousins of Nerevar), would become the New Temple. They regarded their actions as continuing the goals of the First Council in keeping the laws of Resdayn and the remaining Indoril became its most zelous adhereants, in turn gaining its support in the reformed Grand Council."
"Forum sigantures suck" - a great man
2015-08-10 20:50
1 month 3 days ago
As per our discussion on Discord, I had a go at rewriting the Indoril History section. I'll give it another read after a night's sleep, but here's what I came up with:
History of House Indoril
2015-08-10 20:50
1 month 3 days ago
As per Vern's suggestions on Discord, I'll be changing two main things about my write-up above (assuming nothing else comes up): the mention about Alandro Sul disappearing, and adding more information on the thousands of years between the War of the First Council and the Four Score War (and the period from there to Tiber's conquest) that I sort of skipped over. I tackled the first bit first as it's the quickest to write. I might remove Alandro Sul entirely as per the discussion, but as I mention the fate of other eye-witnesses to the events at Red Mountain I'd like to keep him in in some way: