names of locations and towns/cities

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I don’t know if this section is the right place to put this question/suggestion, so please move this post if you think it is unadequate here.

Naming of cities/towns:
– Verarchen.  Sounds strikingly similar to German „verarschen” (to jackass somebody with humorous and/or evil intent).  This was surely not intended, since „arch” is a suiting descriptive, but the name is a  bit odd.  That I think it (the name, not the city) is ugly and not Dunmeri, too, is another issue, but of no concern here.
– Kragen Mar.  A strange mixture of the Imperial tongue catalogue entry „Kragenmoor” and the Dunmeri term „Mar”.  When there is a Dunmeri name for this city in the lore, it ought to be used.   You can do better than Kragen Mar in any case.
– Vhul.  Not a bad name by itself, but by its indirect implications –– similar to Verarchen, sounds almost like German „schwul” (gay, homosexual) which some people might find somewhere between amusing to offensive, especially with a rural small-town (we all know what is stereotypically supposed to happen in such villages and towns, especially with such a name…)
– Arvud.  In the 14.x/15.x release, a road sign pointed to „Ald Erfoud”, and I think it was right.  There should be old Velothian or even older names all over Resdayn, not only in the northern parts.  Arvud does sound like an Imperial or Skyrim-ish catalogue entry.

Naming of regions:
– Grey Meadows.  These ought to have a little more bombastic names, like eg. the Foyada on Vardenfell.  I am thinking of something like „Dust Swamps” or „Velothian Moor” or (ad-hoc invention)  „Mayada Telvis” (supposed to mean „Waterways of Funghi” alike to Foyada „Fireways”).

All of this is just an idea, though.  You can use or ignore it as you like.

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Thanks for these observations, oldChimer.

oldChimer
– Verarchen.  Sounds strikingly similar to German „verarschen” (to jackass somebody with humorous and/or evil intent).  This was surely not intended, since „arch” is a suiting descriptive, but the name is a  bit odd.  That I think it (the name, not the city) is ugly and not Dunmeri, too, is another issue, but of no concern here.

The name ‘Verarchen’ is definitely still up for discussion as we haven’t quite gotten that far north. But personally, I feel like that name is one of our strongest. I get your point on its relation to the referenced German word, but not a very wide percentage of our audience speaks the language.

oldChimer
– Kragen Mar.  A strange mixture of the Imperial tongue catalogue entry „Kragenmoor” and the Dunmeri term „Mar”.  When there is a Dunmeri name for this city in the lore, it ought to be used.   You can do better than Kragen Mar in any case.

I agree with this one. Luckily, names for this city have been alternating for a while now, so I’d expect more changes to come.

oldChimer
– Vhul.  Not a bad name by itself, but by its indirect implications –– similar to Verarchen, sounds almost like German „schwul” (gay, homosexual) which some people might find somewhere between amusing to offensive, especially with a rural small-town (we all know what is stereotypically supposed to happen in such villages and towns, especially with such a name…)

I feel like the reference here is also too distant for us to change the name. The modern name actually replaced ‘Vul’ without the ‘h’ due to there being a cave with the same name.

oldChimer
– Arvud.  In the 14.x/15.x release, a road sign pointed to „Ald Erfoud”, and I think it was right.  There should be old Velothian or even older names all over Resdayn, not only in the northern parts.  Arvud does sound like an Imperial or Skyrim-ish catalogue entry.

Ald Erfoud was changed to Arvud because there’s a city in Morocco called ‘Erfoud’. The justification here isn’t all that great, so I’d support changing it back if there ever came to be a decision.

oldChimer
– Grey Meadows.  These ought to have a little more bombastic names, like eg. the Foyada on Vardenfell.  I am thinking of something like „Dust Swamps” or „Velothian Moor” or (ad-hoc invention)  „Mayada Telvis” (supposed to mean „Waterways of Funghi” alike to Foyada „Fireways”).

My defense for ‘Grey Meadows’ is that there are other very Imperialized names such as the Grazelands and Red Mountain. Also, the intention for the Grey Meadows is to make it gloomy yet somewhat unhostile. I think thhe current name really captures that feeling.

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I wouldn’t mind altering Verarchen a little, but Vhul should be kept. I like Kragen Mar.

Arvud looks more Dunmeri to me than Erfoud, and I would rather keep it.

Something like Dust Meadows actually wouldn’t be a bad name for the region, but maybe we’ve gone back and forth on that enough? I don’t know.

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Yes, I can understand these concerns mostly, and names are a matter of taste, lastly.  And I agree concerning the Grey Meadows, it is merely a matter of personal preference and general overall consistency.  Grey Meadows fits much better than any of the other names I wrote about.
  But „haven’t we renamed this often enough”… somewhere it has to start to be a homogenous entity, and a project is not there to caress people’s egos or to avoid re-doing dubious stuff into something useable and fitting into the „greater whole” (ie., lore and language), but to do things properly and coherently.  One of TR’s self-imposed statures, if I remember correctly.

I don’t really get this one… because of a city in Morocco you renamed Ald Erfoud into Arvud, but similarity to offensive or ludicrous names in a different language are to be ignored with a dubious reasoning?  How can you know how much people play TR and understand/don’t understand the indirect references I mentioned, isn’t this rather a bit of snotty laziness than professionalism?  TR is one of the most widely used MW mods world-wide, and American nationalistic arrogance can’t be in the way of doing two things which would be far more necessary than renaming in-game Erfoud because of a real-world Erfoud.  Bluntly spoken (don’t take this as offense, please), on one hand pissing oneself because of lore and quality, but ignoring issues of quality, necessity and ambience on the other hand? surprise  This cannot be meant seriously.

Sorry about the harsh wording, but it had to be said.

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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Parker more means that TR has had innumerable discussions about names throughout the years, and it has been a constant source of aggravation.  Recently the region names were decided upon definitively so I highly doubt that Grey Meadows will change but I suppose it is always possible.  
As far as I know, neither Gnomey or Atrayonis had objections to either of those objectionable names and they are both Germans. Perhaps I am wrong but I doubt that the name was finalized without either of their approvals.  
Maybe they also have American nationalistic arrogance but somehow I doubt it.

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laugh I am german, too, and I wonder that they let such names slip uncommented… or they didn’t say anything because they saw it as an insider joke among them.  „Hey, we even got the cities Schwul and Verarschen, isn’t that cool?”
Alright, I’m not the one to decide about names in TR, given.  But one can expect sensible reasons for things instead of answers which seem rather arrogant and dismissive, I suppose.  No offense meant to be given, none taken at all.

edit: in case I write a mod once again, there’ll be towns like Dickins, Arsed, Phad Tyttens, Ooned, Wowyn Zown… and I will not care who laughs or gets offended, because it is not my language  angel
Regards

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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oldChimer, I can assure you that no member of TR would ever intend to offend anyone in naming our cities. And nobody is trying to express nationalistic views on the website either.

To be fair, Vhul and Schwul are written very differently and, I’m assuming, sound different as well. Excuse my lack of knowledge of the language. And to point out again, ‘Vhul’ descended directly from ‘Vul’, which I’m sure you would say has practically no relation at all to the German word.

Verarchen was named long before I even joined, so I can’t tell you what its origins were. However, I’m assuming the name was pieced together from words of the Dunmeri language. But I don’t know. Perhaps, back in the day, someone thought it was funny and took the name from the German language. However, I doubt anyone remaining on the team would recollect anything about this.

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I agree on Kragenmoor, but I think that subject got beat to death in another thread which resulted in Kragen Mar eventually.

Grey Meadows I like. There are examples of normal words being used in the names of the vanilla game like someone else said. And it sounds...vaguely dour and forboding for something that should otherwise be welcoming and pleasant, which I think is VERY Dunmer-ish.

Arvud and Verarchen don’t look right to me, but I don’t really have an alternative.

Vhul I also like. Short but sweet. One of the better names, imo, and I’d be a little put out if we had to change it because of a slang few people are likely to know. Call it nationalistic, but this game IS in the English language, not German. If it’s that much of a problem, change it in the German translation.

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Well, if I remember correctly there’s an Austrian town called “Fucking”, so it’s not like that doesn’t happen in the real world, so I don’t quite understand that side of the argument, but I agree with Verarchen and Arvud.

The Grey Meadows actually sounds very cool to me, it has something dreadful and at the same time eerie, beautiful about it, very lovecraftian.
Also since it’s nearer to the border where imperial presence and trade is bigger, I think its fitting. Maybe in a book about the Grey Meadows there could be a mention about the old Dunmeri name for this region.

Also Vhul is cool, and not “schwul”. wink

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Just rename “Arvud” to anything. You know, it’s close to Polish curse word “Kurwa”. There is “a” in both, there is “u” in both, there is “r” in both, they’re both 5 letters long, “w” in Polish language is the same letter as “v” in English. That’s 80% the same word!!! And it doesn’t matter they don’t even strike as similar because of different order of letters in them. After all “Arvud” may sound wrong to someone who has nothing to say, but criticizes everything…

PS. “it had to be said“.

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laugh RyanS: I never thought that somebody wanted to offend.  And with most names, I can agree or at least live with.

Kevaar: For Arvud, I’d really consider returning to the former name, Ald Erfoud, or Ald Vurdon, or something.  Then Arvud would be a contraction used in common speech.  Verarchen sounds too constructed and pseudo-german to my ears; how about „Archen Vul” or „Vul Archen”, replacing Ver- with Vul- as a reference to a stone massif and de-rezzing the constructed sound of the name?
Concerning us Germans: let the translation team handle that.  And don’t believe I ticked off because of those stupid names, I’m not of the kind to piss myself over this wink.  But it occurred to me that many of such hap-dash names tend to sound overly constructed and quite ridiculous in many languages (sorry if I bash on this again, but you surely cannot deny that there is a certain US bigotry concerning their language and culture).  That was true for Bethesdas Arena („Verarchen” is from there, if I remember correctly) and is true for well over half of all games and literature in English language.

Ateiggaer: …and there is a Netherlands town called Arseden, and a Polish one called Wowiezow (to use my name examples, above, and I would have to correct them since We Don’t Use Names Of Existing Cities In Real Life, no matter if they sound good or are absolutely absurd and insulting).   Grey Meadows:  Yes, as I said, the Grey Meadows have something to it, albeit a little too few bits of grass for a meadow, if you ask me ;-).  To the assumption to give something foreboding and cold a soothing nickname as if to please the spirits dwelling there, yes, that’s a nice touch.
And Vhul is Shmul. wink  I’d call it Rhul or Shul.  Shul is at least less inviting for mischievous interpretation than Vhul.

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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edit: taken this away since it was as off-topic as its reason.

Summary of previous post: You may have noted that I can agree with most of your reasoning, and I do have enough humour to find all of this discussion highly amusing and intriguing.  Nonetheless, my name proposals are meant seriously (and I won’t take it the wrong way if you say „nope, forget it” laugh)

Regards to all except for Undertaker, whose comment was less than useful.

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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Shul or just Sul would be a great name too, I like it, but I’m also for keeping Vhul, maybe for an other town.

But I have to add, I don’t agree with your remarks about Americans and their culture etc.
I don’t think they are very helpful for a constructive discussion, even more so if you want to win people over for your arguments.

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Sul is a pretty prominent name in Nerevar lore though. Quite unpopular with the Tribunal Temple, so it would be unlikely to see a village named after him. Also I think Shul is yiddish for school.

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Ateiggaer
But I have to add, I don’t agree with your remarks about Americans and their culture etc.

I don’t think they are very helpful for a constructive discussion, even more so if you want to win people over for your arguments.

Point taken, understood and agreed to.  I’m only human and make mistakes, too, so I’ve got no qualms against being corrected or slowed down with a tac-nuke wink.

Shul as in Yiddish: if it comes to that, every word has a meaning in some language or other, sometimes the meaning being forgotten or simply not in use anymore.  And Shul as name for a rural town isn’t quite that bad: think of the spiritual part of Dunmeri life, living in humility and hard work of „farm life” as part of the mental/spiritual education.  Now that you hinted me to that, how about the quote from the »Dune« anthology: „We Fremen have a saying: Education comes from the cities, wisdom from the desert.”  If you ask me, this would suit well with most of the Great Houses.
And the Temple isn’t that omnipotent and dominating; as far as I know, only Indoril and Redoran are near-fanatic Tribunal followers, while Hlaalu and Telvanni could barely care less about the Temple, although they respect and fear the three Living Gods and pretend to be devout followers for appearance’s and peace’s sake.  And Dres (which sometimes is likened to the Ashlanders in their spirituality) is more likely to be mostly followers of traditional Ancestor worshipping and of the Anticipations.  So Vhul might, theoretically, be in an area where the influence of the Temple is not strong enough to have doctrine dictate settlement names.

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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The Temple might not be that dominating, but the Tribunal themselves are. Alandro Sul was the guy who told the Ashlanders that the Tribunal murdered Nerevar.

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Okay, that might have caused a little disagreement between Sul and the Temple.  But we don’t have to do Shul=Sul, I could say it is the same as Vhul=Schwul (which Vhul isn’t, of course) which I got ear-lobbed for wink.  And even if Shul=Sul, it is not necessarily the same person.  Maybe it is Iliandra Sul, who is a highly noted adept of the Temple of the Tribunal (okay, I made her up and have no idea whether she actually exists, but you know what I mean).

edit: or it was actually named after that Sul, but before his heretic deed, and the local denizens insisted to keep the name in remembrance of the good Sul did before he went rogue and astray.  Maybe even to pacify him as honored Ancestor, or so.
Religion is never that simple that there is a Leadership and everyone accords to their whims.  Sometimes there are matters of keeping or losing influence, greedy and machinating subordinates, or half-baked obedience of the flock for a huge diversity of reasons.  I can’t imagine the Tribunal declaring „never name it Sul” and shaming all of the Sul clan, but rather „Aleandro Sul is a forbidden name of a fool and heretic and thus all reference to him is heresy.”

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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Something that might be worth noting is that Verarchen Hall became Veranis Hall in the early Morrowind concept map.
Verarchen is just a randomly generated building-block name in Arena, so it’s unlikely much thought was put into it; the unfortunate similarity oldChimer brings up might have been the motive for the later change.

I like Vhul and Grey Meadows a lot, the justification presented for changing either is not very strong to me.
 

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I think, as oldChimer already mentioned, that the name Suhl or Sul, doesn’t have to reference Alandro Sul, or even have a meaning in that case. maybe the name is so old, none of the villagers even remember how it came to be.

 

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@sirrah: or, maybe they felt like me and thought „no, Verarchen is an ugly name, who was it you said programmed the name generator?” wink
You’re right, my arguments for both of them are not truly compelling, and, sadly, I cannot find better ones than saying „IMHO they don’t fit Mer tongue or Dunmeric, but rather Cyrodiilic or Skyrim”.  And I already said (wrote) that Grey Meadows is quite okay, although I –– as a matter of personal taste, not of complaining –– think it is not as good and suiting as it could be.  If you say it is Grey Meadows, Grey Meadows it is.  Period.

@Ateiggaer: if they are common people like those I know, they’d probably think, „Vhul, Sul, Fool, Stool –– what the heck do I care, thing’s got a name, no matter where from.  Mebbe Priests in the temple can dig out some ol’ tome where’s written where our name comes from.  Me, I’m from –– ah, blast, this village here, see?” laugh

Alright, so let me draw a preliminary resumee: Grey Meadows is okay; Vhul, or Vul, I can live with, although I still don’t like it as a stand-alone name (a compound like „Vul Anthirran” or „Thirr Vul” would make it sound a lot better).  Arvud (formerly known as Ald Erfoud and renamed for no apparent reason) gets clenched teeth from me, because it sounds like a Skyrim (or Scandinavian) name, eg. Arvid Rusthair Olguffsson the Tree-Thrower.  If it were a town really close to the Skyrim border and populated by Nords, I wouldn’t argue.  But I cannot accept it in the middle of traditionalistic Dunmer territory.
Maybe there is still a slight chance that Verarchen (*shudder*) gets a new name, after the bit of info sirrah dug up.  At least, I hope so.

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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Let it be said that the names of regions are fixed in stone at this point since we merged our datafiles with PT.

Let it also be said that “Shul” is the yiddish word for Synagogue. So, probably shouldn’t name a town after that.

I’m personally rather indifferent to naming things (as I’m not particularly great at it) but I lean heavily on the side of not changing things we don’t have to. So, if people can construct a good reason to change a city name, fine. But without a good reason, I prefer them to stay the same. Not because I’m attached to the current names, but more of a question of priorities.

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Putting the notion onto priority is a good reason, also not doing things which are not imperatively required.  I respect that.

However: fixed in stone cannot apply to the TR_Preview since it is not an officially finalized part of TR, where all of my „subjects” reside.  And, since this merge means both projects use the same resource files, this reason is invalid even for TR_Mainland because changes on one side are automatically transported to the other without the other side having to do, change, or adjust anything except when major changes in the naming scheme of CS objects occur.

I respect and accept priority and requirement as completely valid reasons and am inclined to accept them to postpone a final decision to a time which is convenient to the TR team’s decision makers.  But most of the other reasons I’ve read in this thread are as invalid as most of you see my arguments pro ça change.
 

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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You’re missing something with the region names: They’re “fixed in stone” because we had to make final decisions on how to name things unique to regions in the CS and the datafiles. So, changing the name of the Grey Meadows also includes changing the name of every single plant, rock, ground texture, creature, ingredient, and other asset that is in/unique to the Meadows. Then we have to patch Tamriel_Data, TR_Mainland, and TR_Preview to use the new names appropriately. Change all the cell names, change the interior names, change all dialogue and literature references to the name, update the scripting references...

Is it impossible? No. But it’s really inconvenient to do it, especially as we spent a lot of time and effort defining the locations and names of regions.

Naturally, that argument doesn’t apply to cities, though they of course come with their own small array of things you have to fix. As you noted, we’d have to change all  the road signs, for instance. Again, this doesn’t mean we can’t change them, just that it takes a definite effort to do so, so we should really just keep things the same unless we have a good reason to change them.

That’s not an argument against your/everyone’s suggestions, by the way. I just wanted to make clear that changing the name of a town is not a 5 minute task. (Now continue discussing. wink)

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@10Kaziem:  First, a warm laugh since you earned that.
On one hand, you’re right, especially concerning the time involved.  On the other, you’re wrong, or, at least, not exactly correct. 
Example1 : Activators, T_MW_m3_sign_darnim_main, Name: „Ildrim (back road)”.  Which has to be done, anyways, due to the name changes, so changes WILL be there, whether TR wants to do them or not.  Where is the problem in this?
Example 2: Cell view, Cell name: „Foobar”, Location 65,-22 → Cell name: „Honk”, Location 65,-22.  Any link to Honk points to the location, anyways, not to the name. 
Same goes for any mentioned plant.  The only exception are the regions in the world mapper.  Almost no CS ID name changes are necessary, hence no Need for ID patches.  They would be listed somewhere, though, to do an all-nighter again when they are numerous enough to be a good reason for a „second 16.09” renaming.
Argument → mostly invalid.  I stay with that.
On with the discussion. wink

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.

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Ok old chimer, fair enough, so when we are ready to implement any region or city name changes can we count on you to do the work for us to get everything working within our tamriel_data files and within the game itself? Fair enough?

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Excuse me for replying to this while coming back after 9 months of absence, but: are you REALLY sure you are going to change 2, 3 names of cities a little bit and do THAT amount of work?
By the way, Im german too, and verar(s)chen really attracted my attention, but the rest doesnt do that more than the names in vanilla MW which Im fine with. I think for german players it can be a little confusing, yes, but they will forgive that if we produce a great mod – while changing that name takes a comparatively enormous amount of resources which will be absent at things that are much more important. The result is a worse mod.
So my opinion is yes, there are some names that could be a little bit better, but they are good enough.

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Templar Tribe

Ok old chimer, fair enough, so when we are ready to implement any region or city name changes can we count on you to do the work for us to get everything working within our tamriel_data files and within the game itself? Fair enough?

Seems quite fair to me.  A quick overview of the patching process which you apply in the case of changed CS IDs would be good, so that I can do it in one go, in case such changes to the Master File are wanted, too.
The good thing is: most stuff in the TR_Preview has no interiors, so ID patches will (hopefully) not be necessary at all.

6+: Right, they didn’t.  But the Industries nowadays at least take care not to use words which might be offending in any major language, even if they not exactly assure style or fluent pronouncement.

The more I venture into the realms of wisdom, the more I realize that all wisdom is nothing but illusionary and theoretical.
So, in order to go completely illiterate and bogus, I need to know more about everything.