City reevaluation

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From out of several old discussions and the ongoing mapping development of Tamriel, there is now (again) a map with most settlements on Morrowind (updated 2016-07-12 2016-07-23 2016-07-31):

After some discussion, it seems like this is correct. This is the currently existing in-game settlements and the short-term plans for the new ones.
Indoril and Telvanni revamps, which have no concrete plans, are not included. This is pretty much TR as it exists right now.

The, uh, totally not hastily made legend is here:

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Many settlements in Telvannis will likely be renamed/relocated when we finally get around to updating those areas.

To a lesser extent, the same goes for Indoril lands too, and I would personally like to see us adopt Swiftoak’s plans for those settlements eventually, with some tweaks:

 

I believe we decided Dondril would remain the way it is. Fort Ammar should just be Ammar

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The map is not for the  long-term overhaul of existing developed parts (yet), but for collecting, checking, and coordinating the existing and short-term plans. That’s why it’s in Implementation, not Conceptualisation.

Duly noted on Dondril and Ammar. Dondril was (re)assigned its name here for the record.

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Again. I'am not an expert, but maybe thread with long-term planning and map of whole morrowind where can be discussed areas, cities and another thnigs like this not a bad idea

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It’s pretty hard to plan long-term if there’s no sound basis to plan from.

This thread is supposed to help provide the basis in map form first (from released content primarily and the short-term plans for new areas), since nobody really has an idea or documentation anymore on what’s already in game. Planning on how to best redo everything we already have can come way later and in another thread.

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Finally making good on my promise of getting back to you on Hlaalu and Redoran settlements:

First, I grabbed a map from here:

I think Ud Hleryn, Hlan Oek, Othmura and Saint Seryn (though I sort of go back and forh on that one) should all be Tier III settlements. This largely fits into my general preference for having relatively large populations living on the banks of the Thirr and that Indoril and Hlaalu lands should probably hold most of Morrowind’s population so that the other House territories are freed up for more wilderness.
I’d consider representing Nav Andaram as a Tier V on your map, like the other player strongholds. In reality, it wouild probably grow from possibly as little as a ferry wharf perhaps all the way to a Tier III.
Beyond that, as discussed, Emayn Mar should be Menaan and Oran Plantation should probably be Tier V.

As far as House Redoran is concerned, I think what you have is fine, though I’d consider making Gargen Huul a Tier III. There are probably still some discussions to be had about Redoran settlements and settlement density. You are, however, missing a settlement, probably a Tier IV, whose name I forgot. Though that’s pretty much case in point, as I think that settlement and the road it’s on should be moved/removed, along with Rift Pass, so that we can have a proper stretch of Velothis wilderness.

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Is it supposed to be Kragenmoor or Kragenmar or Kragen Mar? I keep seeing different spellings is all.

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I honestly don’t know. Arguments for Kragenmoor: it’s more imperialized. Arguments for Kragenmar and Kragen Mar: they’re more Dunmer. I personally think the settlement should have a large Imperial and in general outlander population, which is why I tend to go with Kragenmoor. I think they all sound/look good.

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Kragenmoor is what’s used in TESO. But is that an argument against or for…? laugh

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I thought we had decided it was Kragenmar. But since the city is so close to the Shadowgate Pass the more Imperialized Kragenmoor is fine by me.

One more argument for Kragenmoor: it’s spelled that way in the game already.

My son, Trels Varis? He’s in Kragenmoor, out west near Cyrodiil. He’s a scholar in a private Temple school.

I really hope we don’t turn this into a prolonged Kragenmar/Kragenmoor/Kragen Mar/Khragen’Muur debate.

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Kragen Mar is the name the in-game cells have. IF there was any consensus later on, I’m not aware of it.

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Well, we have to have something to argue over since we got the Middle Thirr thing resolved…

I would vote for Kragenmoor, as it’s that way ingame. Maybe keep Kragenmar/Kragen Mar in obscure texts. Kind of how Mournhold is actually Almalexia (or vice versa?)

I unfortunately don’t have much else of value to add to the discussion.

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I don’t think we should use Kragenmoor. Dunmer cities should have Dunmer names, no matter how Imperialized they are, I’d say.

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Why not all mentioned names? It would make a neat little story about the place, where lots of people over the time spelt the name of it wrong or different, to such an extent, that the people of the town said, call it whatever you like, our’s a city of many names. Of course on the players map, he would see the real, official name, but it would be actually funny (well inside joke), if the player encounters characters or books, who spell it the way some devs of TR prefer it.

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All three names can, of course, exist as in-universe alternatives, but there should, ideally, be one name that takes clear precedence over others. Using alternative names frequently would, frankly, look like sloppiness on our part to most players, and could possibly confuse them if they’re told to deliver a letter to Joe Dunmer in Kragen Mar and can only see Kragenmoor on the map.

For what its worth, I kind of prefer Kragen Mar to the others, if only because two-word names look cool to me.

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Kragen Mar is fine by me. Parker's rule of cool is as good a reason as any.

The other names for the city should be used sparingly for the reasons mentioned. It could be funny though. Imperials may even know the city as Kraken's Moor and be puzzled by the fact that there's neither a moor nor krakens anywhere.

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I prefer Kragen Mar. Kragenmar in a lesser sense.

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Parker

All three names can, of course, exist as in-universe alternatives, but there should, ideally, be one name that takes clear precedence over others. Using alternative names frequently would, frankly, look like sloppiness on our part to most players, and could possibly confuse them if they’re told to deliver a letter to Joe Dunmer in Kragen Mar and can only see Kragenmoor on the map.

By that logic shouldn’t it remain as Kragenmoor, though? As that is how it is already presented in vanilla and other parts of TES lore (as far back as Arena, Morrowind-era maps, as well as the newer TESO). Kragenmar/Kragen Mar, while cool, just looks like a mess-up on our part. Same reason I think Dres Tyr should be Tear and Blacklight should remain Blacklight. The other names are TR inventions, not really backed up in the lore at all, and confusing to people who are looking for the mainland lore they are familiar with while playing through the mod.

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If we’re going to deviate from the rule of Dunmer names for Dunmer cities then Kragenmoor would probably be the most suitable candidate, but Tear and Blacklight just don’t make sense in their respective contexts; Tear, especially, goes against TR’s general characterisation of the Dres (outside of exclusively referring to the city’s foreign distict).  Since the precedent set by MW-era Bethesda was ‘Dunmerize indiscriminately’, we ought to have a good reason for breaking from it.
 

 

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My two cents is: leave it as Kragenmoor, as that seems to have lore-basis and would reasonably fit people’s expectations. then you can put a “fun fact” in game where people tell you that only the imperials call it that or whatever to have fun with it.

Other cent: I prefer Tear as Tear. Yes, it’s an english word, but it’s short and sweet and frankly we can fudge it to say that’s coincidentally a word in dunmer language if we want.

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That ship pretty much sailed when “Stoneforest” was renamed to “Balmora”.

TR’s name policy is old, and I’m loathe to rock the boat anymore, especially since SHotN follows pretty much the same policy for the nordic cities. Imperialized names on maps (and in Cyrodiil and High Rock), and local names at the native level. Same as with Munich and Cologne IRL.

Also, it’s been Kragen Mar in the CS for half a decade now, I think it should stay that way. Tear/Tyr Dres is another beast, although I somewhat favour Tyr Dres (it was Tear (Dres) in old maps as well, wasn’t it?).

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I like dunmer names. Baan Malur, Tyr Dres, Kragen Mar, Balmora – it more atmospheric, like nordic names in SHotN. Original names for native cities is not very good: they from TES Arena and sometimes too generic, like Might and Magic (Winterkill, Nightshadow, etc.)
Native names on different language gives feel of more deep universe .

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Okay, all feedback has been incorporated. Aside from minor plantations that I keep stumbling upon in the Orethans, I dub this settlement map complete. Pending renames of the Dreses Tyr and Horak.

Next steps: the Region maps, roads, Chimer strongholds, and Daedric ruins.

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I do think that if we make a clear distinction in-game as to who calls the town what, it won’t look like slopiness on our part. Quite the opposite. If, for instance, Imperials/outlanders consistently use ‘Kragenmoor’, I trust players to be smart enough to pick up on the pattern. Similarly, I assume players will be smart enough to realize that ‘Kragen Mar’ isn’t a consistent typo for ‘Kragenmoor’ we keep making because we never bothered to look it up. I doubt a lot of people thought ‘Ald-ruhn’ was the result of Bethesda horrendously and consistently failing to spell ‘Old Run’, which used to be its ‘official’ lore name.

All that ‘Kragenmoor’ appearing as such in-game indicates to me is that Bethesda couldn’t be bothered to think up a Dunmerized name for it for a throwaway bit of dialogue. (I use the term ‘throwaway’ when referring to a lot of obscure Morrowind dialogue lines because they are often very inconsistent and represent differing stages of Morrowind’s design progress). Just as if some random TR Altmer mentions a minor location in Sumerset Isles, I doubt we will put a lot of thought into whether that location should keep its name or not. In fact, as the dialogue mentioning Kragenmoor appeared in Tribunal, and Tribunal in general seems to be a sort of mending-the-gap expansion for fans of Daggerfall, I’m not sure if the team was terribly concerned about remaining consistent with the original game’s conventions.

I’d be perfectly fine with just leaving it as Kragen Mar and optionally have outlanders – or perhaps just the local Nedes – refer to it as Kragenmoor. Really, that depends on how we want to portray the Nede/outlander/Hlaalu dynamic there, I think, and not something we necessarily need to worry about now.

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I keep finding locations in the oddest places, so I updated the map with Sunmul and Medyaan, which had no name in the UESP Map.
At least I think that’s what their names are supposed to be. Both are south-east of Baan Malur.