The thing that seems strange to me, is that Dunmer don’t actively embrace reincarnation. It seems this reincarnation is set in motion by the choice of a Daedra Prince rather than the Dunmer themselves. If the Daedra prince feels this individual could make as big a difference as they did in their first life then they would be granted another one by that Daedra Prince. Though, I’m not entirely sure how Nervevar’s failed reincarnations fit into this. I’m not exactly sure but Dram points to being reincarnated by Mephala or Sithis due to his status as an assassin. It could be tha the Daedra princes just reincarnate them because they’re the Princes’ most valued servant/worshipper. Nerevar for example was almost like Azura’s patron. Even in the battle of Red Mountain he fought with symblance to Azura.
Ok, the idea only just popped into my head, but a new take on how Hlaalu came to take over a third of Redoran territory.
Half of this post will be me going through former ideas and why they do not work:
The idea that Hlaalu took over a lot of Redoran territory is, in my opinion, a mistake in and of itself, probably based on extrapolating on Hlaalu's expansion into Redoran land on Vvardenfell, which happened under unique circumstances. That said, this is a piece of TR lore that I think is too well established by now, and does have some potential, so I intend to make it work. Specifically, the concept was worked into the background of the Thirr River Conflict, first described here. And here is where we get to the fundamental misunderstanding behind the takeover idea: TR thought -- and to be fair Daggerfall lore supports -- that Tiber Septim invaded Morrowind. Morrowind lore pretty clearly states he did not. Had he invaded, the takeover would have been easy to explain: the Redoran were effectively cleared out in the invasion and Hlaalu got the pieces. We are following Morrowind lore, however, so that no longer works.
Now according to Morrowind lore, Hlaalu took over primarily Indoril, not Redoran, lands. TR lore actually makes that idea easier, as Indoril only keep to their strongholds while the Velothi who live in the settlements serve the Indoril but don't really belong to the House. A change of leadership would be enough to take such land; the Velothi even manage under (if it can be called that) Telvanni leadership. Generally, it seems that -- after the lack invasion was cleared up -- TR's fall-back was to apply Morrowind's lore on how Hlaalu took Indoril lands to apply to Redoran lands as well. That, however, does not work in my opinion. House Wars can be fought by two methods: lawful assassination through the Morag Tong and duels. Now Redoran are the masters at duels, so naturally Hlaalu couldn't take their land by that means. As far as assassination goes, though, sure that might have killed Redoran's leadership, but would that really have gotten the Redoran warriors to abandon the region, and the House to lose control of the area entirely? I don't really see such a dramatic change of territory happening under the House War system, which was designed to stabilize the Houses. It's possible that the 'bloody coups' were not legally carried out as above, and that there was some degree of chaos involved in them. But the thing is that, while House Redoran holds itself to Tribunal law, it actually excels in acts like bloody coups and open warfare, so again, if the rules were broken, one would think Redoran would benefit rather than lose from it.
Another idea that was considered is that Hlaalu used various indirect legal means to take over the land; acquiring or forging land deeds and so on and so forth. That idea could perhaps be made to work, but given the amount of land they took I frankly don't have the imagination to work out a convoluted narrative of all the various schemes Hlaalu used to take the land and have them be interesting and worthwhile. Because Hlaalu have already been established to use those tricks on Vvardenfell and against the Indoril, and to me, without an interesting concept behind it, applying that formula to all that Redoran lands just seems dull and unimaginative.
My suggestion is quite straightforward: House Hlaalu did not take over Redoran land. The Redoran of (mostly) the Waters March simply chose to change allegiance to House Hlaalu.
Faced with an invasion they could not beat, unsupported by the other Houses, House Redoran saw how hopeless its position not just in that case, but as defenders of Morrowind in general was. The Redoran knew that they would not have been able to withstand Tiber's legions, but now, with the Armistice, they wouldn't even have to. Their mission was shown to be both pointless and impossible. Now they could sit hunched on the Cyrodiil border on the off-chance that Tiber Septim or one of his descendents would suddenly decide to break an all-around beneficial treaty and invade Morrowind in a bloody war that Redoran would go down fighting in. What good would that do anyone? The Stones March and Ashes Marsh still have a margianal purpose in fending off Nord and Orc raids, but they are still struggling with a sense of purpose that finally manifests as a suicide mission to Vvardenfell under Bolvyn Venim. The ones with the most to do after the Armistice is none other than House Hlaalu, the outward-facing merchant House the Redoran have protected for thousands of years.
It's very easy to simplify Hlaalu-Redoran relations as an antagonistic one, and that Hlaalu are seen as -- or even are -- sell-outs, but Redoran spent a long, long time living alongside the Hlaalu, seeing how they grew from almost nothing after the War of the First Council, played a large part in transforming Morrowind from a war-torn, ash-covered backwater to arguably Tamriel's most stable nation -- and one of its most powerful. The Houses fought side by side during Reman's invasion, where Redoran could appreciate Hlaalu's mettle. I think, despite their many misgivings about the House, Redoran would respect both the good it has done, and the success it has seen by doing so, which is something Redoran could not achieve itself. So the Redoran of the Waters March decided they would do more good serving House Hlaalu. Ald Marak and Ald Iuval were left as a minimal garrison to protect the Thirr, mainly probably from pirates.
So while many Redoran may have resented Hlaalu's role leading up to and following the Armistice, (to be fair, Redoran could reasonably resent almost everyone else for the roles they played in that chapter of history), and Hlaalu did end up infringing on Stones March and Vvardenfell territory and perhaps even beyond with Cormar, the loss of the Waters March was voluntary on part of the Redoran.
And removing the huge source of antagonism the Hlaalu takeover would have been, Ald Iuval and Ald Marak make a lot more sense. They are not enemies in Hlaalu's midst, merely their ancient allies that have still stuck around doing what they do. The strongholds and land they are on themselves hold no value to the Hlaalu. It's only when the Thirr River Conflict comes to a head and Hlaalu nearly manages to trigger all the other Houses beating it down that the strongholds become a concern, and even then, what are the Hlaalu supposed to do? Assassinate every last warrior there? Removing the concept that Hlaalu can magically wrest a huge territory from Redoran without getting crippled in the process, the idea that they can just up and take over Redoran strongholds seems implausible to me, as I think it should be.
Hmm, given that the House Wars have been characterized as shaping forces of Morrowind, I'm not sure I like this. I mean, I assume there's always some people changing Houses by marriage or illegitimate birth alone, but given that even the Nerevarine can't change their House without console hacks, I don't think it should be a major plot point here, either.
As shakey as it is, ESO gave a little nod to the strange relationship Hlaalu and Redoran have, by saying that the cities of Balmora and Suran belonged to Redoran but were built by Hlaalu contractors, hence the Hlaalu architecture. Then, at some point, Hlaalu apparently issued a coup and took those cities, and Redoran got pushed out to Ald'Ruhn, which up to that point, had been an Ashlander outpost/gathering hall. (The king crab creature was something Ashlanders had killed centuries ago--and at risk of being burned at stake, I say this makes way more sense than floating it across the sea...) The Redoran then picked up some of their Ashlander-like customs (such as their bug-like houses) by mingling with the Ashlanders.
That's ESO lore, which I think is pretty dumb overall, but there are a couple things that we can lift from it: One, that Hlaalu probably kept a low profile in Morrowind, "taking care of business" as it were, simple tradesmen and craftsmen, quietly taking over the economy while the other Houses squabbled over politics. Then at some point (whether you believe in the 2nd Era Ebonheart Pact and outlanders-in-Vvardenfell BS or the earlier lore about the Armistice), outlanders came into Morrowind and changed the balance of power. Hlaalu saw its opportunity and allied with them.
This leads to the Second thing we can lift from ESO: that Redoran did not see this coming and had their feet taken out from under them by the Hlaalu powergrab. Some of the old Redoran holdings became Hlaalu, maybe even overnight in coups or careful manipulation and adoption of the various governors (hetmen?) of those particular cities. It may not have been just Indoril cities that were "burning" at the time.
As far as the two towers, the Hlaalu and Indoril would both want control of these. Throughout RL history are examples of robber barons setting up a fort along a river to control traffic and demand taxes/tolls: a system just short of banditry. Redoran may have built these towers for a completely different purpose originally: to defend against Argonians or Imperials or Akaviri or Dwemer or some other invading force (I'd have to look at them again on a map, sorry), but how they are actually being used now is along the lines of the robber barons outlined above, by either Hlaalu or Indoril. And if it becomes a toss-up between Hlaalu and Indoril, I say let's make it into a questline. If you are part of Hlaalu, you do the quest to make them under the control of Hlaalu. If you are a part of Indoril, you make them Indoril. Otherwise, they are Redoran or perhaps just Velothi, very neglected if not abandoned, seeing as how now they are in a location that is not looking to be attacked from outside forces.
Biography of Barenziah is a Daggerfall book, and Bethesda go out of their way to state that the author is unreliable.* On Morrowind is a Morrowind-era book, written in a impartial and scholarly fashion, and suggested to you by Caius Cosades himself. I think it's pretty clear that the latter was intended as a ret-con, and Bethesda simply didn't bother editing their older literature to conform to the new lore, which is something I don't think they have ever done. On Morrowind is Bethesda's clear statement on how the east was won. Even if that weren't the case, I think even TR's own lore does not support the idea that city of Almalexia was destroyed in the Tiber Wars, which the biography clearly states right at the beginning, and if it was we will need to rethink a lot. In TR's lore, if the Empire were to have destroyed Morrowind's capital, in the heart of Indoril territory, with the Tribunal being present as living gods, (keeping in mind that they had already experienced the loss of the capital once at the hands of Mehrunes Dagon and wouldn't be keen to see it again), it would have lasting and far-reaching effects we have so far in no way addressed.
In reply to Kevaar, I don't think House Wars should be shaping forces of Morrowind, except more recently with Tribunal power on the decline. House Wars were specifically intended to keep things stable, rather than the clan conflicts that preceded the Tribunal. As for changing Houses, that is a good point, but in this case it would be whole clans/minor Houses changing allegience, which I think should work, especially as both Hlaalu and Redoran are conglomerate Houses.
As for ESO, its lore sounds (again) like a mess. Suran and Balmora are Hlaalu architecture first and foremost as a gameplay convention, because they are aligned with the Hlaalu faction. The floating across the sea idea was pretty thoroughly shot down in the infamous skar meeting. Bug houses are supposed to be a Dunmer thing, not only an Ashlander thing; this is a point that bugs me (pun intended) and is why I insisted the Dres have bugshell buildings as well. According to early Bethesda planning, and I believe the intent in the final game as well (biggest hints being the Red Book entries and the Redoran checkpoint in Molag Mar), House Redoran controlled almost all of Vvardenfell, which is not mutually exclusive with it being a Temple preserve. Because it was a Temple preserve, House Redoran left it alone, which is how the Hlaalu and Telvanni ended up getting footholds there. And all of this is about Vvardenfell, which as I said is a completely different kettle of fish, as it was only opened up (again) to settlement in 3E 414, thirteen years before Morrowind takes place. Though if that's ESO lore, it seems like ESO completely retconned that point as well, which makes the whole exercise pretty pointless.
And that last point is important; Redoran have their feet taken out from under them with Vvardenfell. Saying that the same thing happened to them at the time of the Armistice just makes them look stupid.
As far as robber baron strongholds go, Indoril wouldn't take over two Redoran strongholds far outside of even their original territory. It's both impractical and out of character of them. If they need to exert power, they can probably do it indirectly via Almas Thirr, but again, that kind of thing is very out of character for them; it's more useful to them to have Redoran nearby to try and win to their side. It's very in character for Hlaalu to have such toll stations, but they already have their saturation of them: Narsis, Ud Hleryn, St. Seryn, Kragen Mar being the main ones. Hlaalu completely control the Thirr and Othreleth rivers south of Lake Andaram and the Redoran strongholds.
*Rats pointed out that Morrowind did actually edit the text specifically on the subject of the Tiber Wars, and that I was mixing up The Real Barenziah and the Biography of Barenziah. Mea culpa.
I think I'm going to have to start failing to say whether lore comes from ESO or not, it's a bit like watching a cat go after a laser pointer...
More back on point though--I wouldn't say that the House Wars are only a thing when the Tribunal began to lose power. It's pretty well laidout that the different Great Houses don't much like each other--part of Nerevar's greatness, and then the Nerevarine's greatness, was that they somehow managed to unite all these squabbling Houses and clans--that literally no one else managed in thousands of years. The Tribunal seem to only manage to keep a lid on the Wars by allowing the Morag Tong to do their business. So I can't believe that the Redoran would watch half of their holdings become Hlaalu and just shrug their shoulders and say "well we're a big happy family so who cares", so to speak. They may stand down in respect to the Tribunal's orders that Morrowind tries to all get along, but they wouldn't like it.
House Wars or no, the Redoran values of honor and the Hlaalu values of trickery and stealth are also at odds, and it's hard to imagine them being friends with each other even if there wasn't the House War thing going on. Knd of a minor point, because if we're going for realism, people don't fit in boxes like that. However, we're also writing for a game that gave the Great Houses categories to distinguish them, so you could take it either way.
As far as getting their feet taken out from under them during the Armistice--maybe my wording is off. The areas that belong to Hlaalu now were probably much of the land that was being threatened or even overrun by Imperial invaders. Redoran may not have been able to hold onto all of it. They were one House fighting a border war along a very long border, and I think I recall somewhere it stating that the war took a heavy toll on them. Just like in the current time, where Redoran's hands are full taking care of Dagoth Ur and thus they have lost the landgrab "war", I don't think it's a stretch to say the Redoran would have had their hands full taking care of the Imperials and so have lost another landgrab war with the Hlaalu. Hlaalu is characterized as opportunistic as well as an ally of the Empire, and I would say it would be very in character for them to take advantage of the post-war negotiations to get more land for themselves and make good with the Empire in the same gambit. The Empire would also be served by "demilitarizing" (Redoran = Morrowind's military) the border and filling it with merchants interested in trade with them, so they would have ulterior motives as well to help Hlaalu take control of those areas. It further adds to the thematic angle--Indoril and Redoran (and Dres) are symbols of the old Dunmer way. The Empire came in and hurt all of them, while Hlaalu went from scavenger to a Great House to be respected with the Empire's ideals and help.
As far as too many chokepoints--again, I'm not sure where on the map these two towers are, but if they are in Hlaalu territory..there is NEVER such a thing as "too many toll stations" to the Hlaalu! Profit is profit!
Still, another angle might be that at one time they served this purpose until Hlaalu could more firmly cement their hold on the area, and now they have become defunct and obsolete. Another quest hook or dialogue idea might be local Hlaalu debating whether they should take the towers down to make use of the materials in other structures. Perhaps even in helping to build the player stronghold itself...
As far as ESO is concerned, I don't really see it (or Legends, or the novels, for that matter) any differently from other Elderscrolls titles. If anything, I give those titles a bit more leeway than the main series because, in their own ways, they actually focus and expand on lore rather than putting it on the backburner. If that ESO lore were presented in any other game, I'd still dismiss it as silly in the context of Morrowind-era lore. Really, if Dragonborn weren't post our timeline, I'd probably go after it more viciously than ESO.
There's a very, very significant difference between clan conflicts before Nerevar and the House War system after the Tribunal took power. The former were chaotic and constant, and that was the point, as the Chimer were under the guidance of the Daedra and that's how they liked it. The Tribunal were a very clear departure from that, and again, that was the point. Under their rule, House Wars were strictly codified and orderly. The Morrowind 'House War' topic has plenty to say on that point:
Only a ranking challenging noble or a Morag Tong may attack the marked noble; in modern times, Houses routinely engage Morag Tong. This custom permits Houses to war upon one another on a small scale without threatening public peace and rule of law. Such violent disputes among Great Houses are called 'House Wars.'
Tribunal Morrowind was a near-utopia for the Dunmer, and for the vast majority of its history the Great Houses got along and cooperated to an unprecedented degree. They built on and continued Nerevar's legacy; Morrowind did not enter another dark age of internal conflict after Nerevar's death. That golden age is very central and important to the game's setting and themes.
And the cooperation also figures into Hlaalu and Redoran getting along. It's very easy to flanderize the Houses to honourable warriors and dishonest merchants, but the Dunmer concept of honour is different from ours, and while Hlaalu is certainly dishonest, for most of its history its trickery has been directed at non-Dunmer, securing good deals that benefited (with a bit of 'trickle down' admittedly) all of Morrowind, for instance the mass import of Khajiit slaves. Basically, Hlaalu may have been tricksters, but they were Morrowind's tricksters, and were fulfilling their duty to their fellow Dunmer in the process, in their own way, under the direction of House Indoril, whether they liked it or not, as Indoril still dominated then. Redoran would not be above tricking others, especially outlanders, and Hlaalu are not always craven and dishonest. As stated, they fought alongside the Redoran when Reman invaded (as in actually invaded), and they have guards and other warriors just the same as any other House.
And again, there were no Imperial invaders since Reman. Tiber never invaded, and there was no war. The most that happened were inconclusive border skirmishes in Black Marsh, far from Redoran territory. Morrowind lore states that quite clearly. The Redoran were certainly nervous that it would come to an invasion, but the Armistice precluded that, which is why even if the Redoran may not have liked the terms of the Armistice they were if anything relieved by it. And that's the main issue: Indoril was broken by the Armistice -- and not an invasion -- and that allowed Hlaalu to swallow their lands. That much makes sense. And hundreds of years later, Redoran is slow to exert its legitimate claims on Vvardenfell allowing Hlaalu to steal their land on Vvardenfell, and again, that makes sense. But at the time of the Armistice, Redoran were at their full (though much reduced from their glory days) strength, shoring up against a possible invasion. They were as strong and vigilant as they could be at that time. To say that Hlaalu took a quarter to a third of their land at that time, while simultaneously swallowing a similar portion of Indoril land, and without apparantly suffering much loss in the process, is very much a stretch in my opinion.
As a sidenote, to me Indoril are the only real proponents of Tribunal Morrowind. Redoran I see as unruly clan-warriors of pre-Tribunal days who sacrifice everything to make the Tribunal's vision a reality, but are functionally unable to thrive in such an environment themselves. Dres and Telvanni are also relics, the former supporting their fellow Dunmer despite whatever changes they undergo while keeping to their own ways, and the latter simply not getting involved. Hlaalu are loyal to Veloth's mission in their own way, and are devout followers of the Tribunal in their own way, but they are there to move the Dunmer forward.
Hmm. Your argument is based on the Imperials being stopped cold at the border and the treaty happening before much damage could occur, while mine is based on the Imperials getting into Morrowind and causing some havoc before the Tribunal could get the treaty together.
And unfortunately, the lore could probably back us both up, depending on which sources we use.
I have a side question that might shed light on this--what was the Thirr River conflict like before the Hlaalu got involved? Meaning, did Redoran, Indoril, and Dres squabble in the same way, were the borders different, was there even a conflict at all?
This is very much a run-down of TR lore, and I think there are certainly large parts where it diverges from the vanilla situation, though the latter is much harder to define:
Before the Armistice there was no large-scale conflict. Indoril controlled the interior of Morrowind, and the Thirr north of Lake Andaram was very much the interior. It basically acted like a heart, receiving goods from the furthest reaches of the province and then pumping them back out. Dres naturally controlled the Deshaan Plains to the southeast and grew saltrice to feed the province, while Telvanni were located in the eastern fringes of the province and mostly kept to themselves. Redoran controlled a broad strip of territory along Morrowind's western border, (the three marches), as well as Vvardenfell, though they were largely inactive in the latter as it was a Temple reserve. Hlaalu controlled very little land, centered around major trade cities at the passes into Cyrodiil: Kragen Mar, Narsis, and lands immediately surrounding Narsis.
There was no balance in territory size or power, merely in function. Indoril handled Morrowind's internal administration and economy, the Velothi goods production, Hlaalu import and export, Dres food production, Redoran defence, and Telvanni had a place as the dissidents. (Naturally there was some overlap in roles, but that's a good rule of thumb).
Hlaalu didn't have much in the way of plantations back then and were almost exclusively merchants interfacing with non-Dunmer. The marches had a relatively limited economy mainly focused on sustaining the local 'garrisons', and the land was largely left untamed.
All of that changed with the Armistice; the Hlaalu rapidly expanded their territory and actively exploited it, building mines and plantations and clearing forests. Places like the Othreleth that were at the edges of Morrowind -- aside from the major trade hubs -- suddenly competed with Morrowind's heartland. Dependence on Indoril administration fell away, first using the Empire as a crutch and then overproducing to the point of exerting control themselves. Hlaalu took control of the Thirr south of Lake Andaram and started levying tolls on goods transported along it. The Thirr itself was opened up more to foreign trade, even more so when Vvardenfell was eventually opened for colonization and the Inner Sea declared Imperial waters. In general, Morrowind's economy, and with it its power balance, were thrown completely into disarray, and roles started heavily overlapping and shifting to the extent of threatening the relevance of whole Houses (specifically Hlaalu eclipsing most of Indoril's functions, also Dres' to a degree, and Redoran becoming less relevant than ever).
Hmm. I almost get a "Last of the Samurai" or American Midwest feel from that--that is, the modern Midwest were farmlands are being abandoned as people move into the cities for more lucrative or highly educated jobs, and so the farms are coming under the control of large corporations instead of individual families, or just disappearing entirely. I could maybe see a more peaceful takeover where the Redoran's influence and population is slowly declining (from various small economic and political pressures, nothing conflicty--more that there's little need for warriors when you've got the Empire guarding the west flank), and so they slowly have been pulling out of their most farflung manors/outposts/farms in the south. Hlaalu on the other end is seeing a long slow increase as profits from trade with outsiders goes up, so they buy out some of the farms, "inherit" others as families marry, etc.
In contrast to your first idea, it 's not so much Redoran becoming Hlaalu as Redoran shrinking and Hlaalu growing. There might've been more of a conflict if Redoran wasn't shrinking, but they are--and then I imagine a sudden bloom in Hlaalu holdings once Redoran moves themselves to Vvardenfell.
I'm still not sure about the towers. I mean, I still really like the idea of the robber baron tollgates, even if they are no longer in use in TR's timeline.
I still don't think it's necessary to use those particular towers for that idea. Discussions of Seryn included it having a dam that divides the shallow upper Othreleth that flows from Kragen Mar and can only carry light skiffs from the deeper Othreleth that has room for larger vessels and flows into the Thirr. Ud Hleryn planning involved a bridge spanning the Othreleth with a chain that could be lowered to block the river. The Hlaalu so thoroughly control the rivers south of Lake Andaram that the towers are just not necessary for them. While levying more tolls is viable, levying higher tolls is as well (within certain limits), and all of this is without considering the Andothren-OE deal on dividing local and interprovincial trade goods and the fact some smugglers are working for Hlaalu and collecting 'toll' on their behalf.
I think by and large your more gradual explanation does work better, but in that case I would still sprinkle in some minor Houses switching allegiance along with the occasional Hlaalu shenanigans to add more interest and momentum to the changes; especially a very quick initial expansion at the start to jumpstart Hlaalu efforts.
But yeah, I can see something like that. Some of it just being the current state of economics and the balance of the Houses' power, some minor disagreements between minor Houses (need more minor House lore overall!) and then Hlaalu picking and poking at things here and there because that's what Hlaalu does.
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2015-12-29 23:11
3 years 11 months ago
The thing that seems strange to me, is that Dunmer don’t actively embrace reincarnation. It seems this reincarnation is set in motion by the choice of a Daedra Prince rather than the Dunmer themselves. If the Daedra prince feels this individual could make as big a difference as they did in their first life then they would be granted another one by that Daedra Prince. Though, I’m not entirely sure how Nervevar’s failed reincarnations fit into this. I’m not exactly sure but Dram points to being reincarnated by Mephala or Sithis due to his status as an assassin. It could be tha the Daedra princes just reincarnate them because they’re the Princes’ most valued servant/worshipper. Nerevar for example was almost like Azura’s patron. Even in the battle of Red Mountain he fought with symblance to Azura.
Of course, I could just be overthinking here.
2015-08-10 20:50
3 weeks 5 days ago
Ok, the idea only just popped into my head, but a new take on how Hlaalu came to take over a third of Redoran territory.
Half of this post will be me going through former ideas and why they do not work:
My suggestion is quite straightforward: House Hlaalu did not take over Redoran land. The Redoran of (mostly) the Waters March simply chose to change allegiance to House Hlaalu.
Faced with an invasion they could not beat, unsupported by the other Houses, House Redoran saw how hopeless its position not just in that case, but as defenders of Morrowind in general was. The Redoran knew that they would not have been able to withstand Tiber's legions, but now, with the Armistice, they wouldn't even have to. Their mission was shown to be both pointless and impossible.
Now they could sit hunched on the Cyrodiil border on the off-chance that Tiber Septim or one of his descendents would suddenly decide to break an all-around beneficial treaty and invade Morrowind in a bloody war that Redoran would go down fighting in. What good would that do anyone? The Stones March and Ashes Marsh still have a margianal purpose in fending off Nord and Orc raids, but they are still struggling with a sense of purpose that finally manifests as a suicide mission to Vvardenfell under Bolvyn Venim. The ones with the most to do after the Armistice is none other than House Hlaalu, the outward-facing merchant House the Redoran have protected for thousands of years.
It's very easy to simplify Hlaalu-Redoran relations as an antagonistic one, and that Hlaalu are seen as -- or even are -- sell-outs, but Redoran spent a long, long time living alongside the Hlaalu, seeing how they grew from almost nothing after the War of the First Council, played a large part in transforming Morrowind from a war-torn, ash-covered backwater to arguably Tamriel's most stable nation -- and one of its most powerful. The Houses fought side by side during Reman's invasion, where Redoran could appreciate Hlaalu's mettle. I think, despite their many misgivings about the House, Redoran would respect both the good it has done, and the success it has seen by doing so, which is something Redoran could not achieve itself. So the Redoran of the Waters March decided they would do more good serving House Hlaalu. Ald Marak and Ald Iuval were left as a minimal garrison to protect the Thirr, mainly probably from pirates.
So while many Redoran may have resented Hlaalu's role leading up to and following the Armistice, (to be fair, Redoran could reasonably resent almost everyone else for the roles they played in that chapter of history), and Hlaalu did end up infringing on Stones March and Vvardenfell territory and perhaps even beyond with Cormar, the loss of the Waters March was voluntary on part of the Redoran.
And removing the huge source of antagonism the Hlaalu takeover would have been, Ald Iuval and Ald Marak make a lot more sense. They are not enemies in Hlaalu's midst, merely their ancient allies that have still stuck around doing what they do. The strongholds and land they are on themselves hold no value to the Hlaalu. It's only when the Thirr River Conflict comes to a head and Hlaalu nearly manages to trigger all the other Houses beating it down that the strongholds become a concern, and even then, what are the Hlaalu supposed to do? Assassinate every last warrior there? Removing the concept that Hlaalu can magically wrest a huge territory from Redoran without getting crippled in the process, the idea that they can just up and take over Redoran strongholds seems implausible to me, as I think it should be.
2016-01-19 19:35
1 month 3 weeks ago
Hmm, given that the House Wars have been characterized as shaping forces of Morrowind, I'm not sure I like this. I mean, I assume there's always some people changing Houses by marriage or illegitimate birth alone, but given that even the Nerevarine can't change their House without console hacks, I don't think it should be a major plot point here, either.
As shakey as it is, ESO gave a little nod to the strange relationship Hlaalu and Redoran have, by saying that the cities of Balmora and Suran belonged to Redoran but were built by Hlaalu contractors, hence the Hlaalu architecture. Then, at some point, Hlaalu apparently issued a coup and took those cities, and Redoran got pushed out to Ald'Ruhn, which up to that point, had been an Ashlander outpost/gathering hall. (The king crab creature was something Ashlanders had killed centuries ago--and at risk of being burned at stake, I say this makes way more sense than floating it across the sea...) The Redoran then picked up some of their Ashlander-like customs (such as their bug-like houses) by mingling with the Ashlanders.
That's ESO lore, which I think is pretty dumb overall, but there are a couple things that we can lift from it: One, that Hlaalu probably kept a low profile in Morrowind, "taking care of business" as it were, simple tradesmen and craftsmen, quietly taking over the economy while the other Houses squabbled over politics. Then at some point (whether you believe in the 2nd Era Ebonheart Pact and outlanders-in-Vvardenfell BS or the earlier lore about the Armistice), outlanders came into Morrowind and changed the balance of power. Hlaalu saw its opportunity and allied with them.
This leads to the Second thing we can lift from ESO: that Redoran did not see this coming and had their feet taken out from under them by the Hlaalu powergrab. Some of the old Redoran holdings became Hlaalu, maybe even overnight in coups or careful manipulation and adoption of the various governors (hetmen?) of those particular cities. It may not have been just Indoril cities that were "burning" at the time.
As far as the two towers, the Hlaalu and Indoril would both want control of these. Throughout RL history are examples of robber barons setting up a fort along a river to control traffic and demand taxes/tolls: a system just short of banditry. Redoran may have built these towers for a completely different purpose originally: to defend against Argonians or Imperials or Akaviri or Dwemer or some other invading force (I'd have to look at them again on a map, sorry), but how they are actually being used now is along the lines of the robber barons outlined above, by either Hlaalu or Indoril. And if it becomes a toss-up between Hlaalu and Indoril, I say let's make it into a questline. If you are part of Hlaalu, you do the quest to make them under the control of Hlaalu. If you are a part of Indoril, you make them Indoril. Otherwise, they are Redoran or perhaps just Velothi, very neglected if not abandoned, seeing as how now they are in a location that is not looking to be attacked from outside forces.
2014-01-08 21:55
23 hours 13 min ago
i don't know why one would read 'On Morrowind' and then disregard 'Biography of Barenziah'
Morrowind lore absolutely does not make any clear statements as to how the east was won. we can do what with want, IMO
2015-08-10 20:50
3 weeks 5 days ago
Biography of Barenziah is a Daggerfall book, and Bethesda go out of their way to state that the author is unreliable.* On Morrowind is a Morrowind-era book, written in a impartial and scholarly fashion, and suggested to you by Caius Cosades himself. I think it's pretty clear that the latter was intended as a ret-con, and Bethesda simply didn't bother editing their older literature to conform to the new lore, which is something I don't think they have ever done. On Morrowind is Bethesda's clear statement on how the east was won.Even if that weren't the case, I think even TR's own lore does not support the idea that city of Almalexia was destroyed in the Tiber Wars, which the biography clearly states right at the beginning, and if it was we will need to rethink a lot. In TR's lore, if the Empire were to have destroyed Morrowind's capital, in the heart of Indoril territory, with the Tribunal being present as living gods, (keeping in mind that they had already experienced the loss of the capital once at the hands of Mehrunes Dagon and wouldn't be keen to see it again), it would have lasting and far-reaching effects we have so far in no way addressed.
In reply to Kevaar, I don't think House Wars should be shaping forces of Morrowind, except more recently with Tribunal power on the decline. House Wars were specifically intended to keep things stable, rather than the clan conflicts that preceded the Tribunal. As for changing Houses, that is a good point, but in this case it would be whole clans/minor Houses changing allegience, which I think should work, especially as both Hlaalu and Redoran are conglomerate Houses.
As for ESO, its lore sounds (again) like a mess. Suran and Balmora are Hlaalu architecture first and foremost as a gameplay convention, because they are aligned with the Hlaalu faction. The floating across the sea idea was pretty thoroughly shot down in the infamous skar meeting. Bug houses are supposed to be a Dunmer thing, not only an Ashlander thing; this is a point that bugs me (pun intended) and is why I insisted the Dres have bugshell buildings as well. According to early Bethesda planning, and I believe the intent in the final game as well (biggest hints being the Red Book entries and the Redoran checkpoint in Molag Mar), House Redoran controlled almost all of Vvardenfell, which is not mutually exclusive with it being a Temple preserve. Because it was a Temple preserve, House Redoran left it alone, which is how the Hlaalu and Telvanni ended up getting footholds there. And all of this is about Vvardenfell, which as I said is a completely different kettle of fish, as it was only opened up (again) to settlement in 3E 414, thirteen years before Morrowind takes place. Though if that's ESO lore, it seems like ESO completely retconned that point as well, which makes the whole exercise pretty pointless.
And that last point is important; Redoran have their feet taken out from under them with Vvardenfell. Saying that the same thing happened to them at the time of the Armistice just makes them look stupid.
As far as robber baron strongholds go, Indoril wouldn't take over two Redoran strongholds far outside of even their original territory. It's both impractical and out of character of them. If they need to exert power, they can probably do it indirectly via Almas Thirr, but again, that kind of thing is very out of character for them; it's more useful to them to have Redoran nearby to try and win to their side. It's very in character for Hlaalu to have such toll stations, but they already have their saturation of them: Narsis, Ud Hleryn, St. Seryn, Kragen Mar being the main ones. Hlaalu completely control the Thirr and Othreleth rivers south of Lake Andaram and the Redoran strongholds.
*Rats pointed out that Morrowind did actually edit the text specifically on the subject of the Tiber Wars, and that I was mixing up The Real Barenziah and the Biography of Barenziah. Mea culpa.
2016-01-19 19:35
1 month 3 weeks ago
I think I'm going to have to start failing to say whether lore comes from ESO or not, it's a bit like watching a cat go after a laser pointer...
More back on point though--I wouldn't say that the House Wars are only a thing when the Tribunal began to lose power. It's pretty well laidout that the different Great Houses don't much like each other--part of Nerevar's greatness, and then the Nerevarine's greatness, was that they somehow managed to unite all these squabbling Houses and clans--that literally no one else managed in thousands of years. The Tribunal seem to only manage to keep a lid on the Wars by allowing the Morag Tong to do their business. So I can't believe that the Redoran would watch half of their holdings become Hlaalu and just shrug their shoulders and say "well we're a big happy family so who cares", so to speak. They may stand down in respect to the Tribunal's orders that Morrowind tries to all get along, but they wouldn't like it.
House Wars or no, the Redoran values of honor and the Hlaalu values of trickery and stealth are also at odds, and it's hard to imagine them being friends with each other even if there wasn't the House War thing going on. Knd of a minor point, because if we're going for realism, people don't fit in boxes like that. However, we're also writing for a game that gave the Great Houses categories to distinguish them, so you could take it either way.
As far as getting their feet taken out from under them during the Armistice--maybe my wording is off. The areas that belong to Hlaalu now were probably much of the land that was being threatened or even overrun by Imperial invaders. Redoran may not have been able to hold onto all of it. They were one House fighting a border war along a very long border, and I think I recall somewhere it stating that the war took a heavy toll on them. Just like in the current time, where Redoran's hands are full taking care of Dagoth Ur and thus they have lost the landgrab "war", I don't think it's a stretch to say the Redoran would have had their hands full taking care of the Imperials and so have lost another landgrab war with the Hlaalu. Hlaalu is characterized as opportunistic as well as an ally of the Empire, and I would say it would be very in character for them to take advantage of the post-war negotiations to get more land for themselves and make good with the Empire in the same gambit. The Empire would also be served by "demilitarizing" (Redoran = Morrowind's military) the border and filling it with merchants interested in trade with them, so they would have ulterior motives as well to help Hlaalu take control of those areas. It further adds to the thematic angle--Indoril and Redoran (and Dres) are symbols of the old Dunmer way. The Empire came in and hurt all of them, while Hlaalu went from scavenger to a Great House to be respected with the Empire's ideals and help.
As far as too many chokepoints--again, I'm not sure where on the map these two towers are, but if they are in Hlaalu territory..there is NEVER such a thing as "too many toll stations" to the Hlaalu! Profit is profit!
Still, another angle might be that at one time they served this purpose until Hlaalu could more firmly cement their hold on the area, and now they have become defunct and obsolete. Another quest hook or dialogue idea might be local Hlaalu debating whether they should take the towers down to make use of the materials in other structures. Perhaps even in helping to build the player stronghold itself...
2015-08-10 20:50
3 weeks 5 days ago
As far as ESO is concerned, I don't really see it (or Legends, or the novels, for that matter) any differently from other Elderscrolls titles. If anything, I give those titles a bit more leeway than the main series because, in their own ways, they actually focus and expand on lore rather than putting it on the backburner. If that ESO lore were presented in any other game, I'd still dismiss it as silly in the context of Morrowind-era lore. Really, if Dragonborn weren't post our timeline, I'd probably go after it more viciously than ESO.
There's a very, very significant difference between clan conflicts before Nerevar and the House War system after the Tribunal took power. The former were chaotic and constant, and that was the point, as the Chimer were under the guidance of the Daedra and that's how they liked it. The Tribunal were a very clear departure from that, and again, that was the point. Under their rule, House Wars were strictly codified and orderly. The Morrowind 'House War' topic has plenty to say on that point:
Tribunal Morrowind was a near-utopia for the Dunmer, and for the vast majority of its history the Great Houses got along and cooperated to an unprecedented degree. They built on and continued Nerevar's legacy; Morrowind did not enter another dark age of internal conflict after Nerevar's death. That golden age is very central and important to the game's setting and themes.
And the cooperation also figures into Hlaalu and Redoran getting along. It's very easy to flanderize the Houses to honourable warriors and dishonest merchants, but the Dunmer concept of honour is different from ours, and while Hlaalu is certainly dishonest, for most of its history its trickery has been directed at non-Dunmer, securing good deals that benefited (with a bit of 'trickle down' admittedly) all of Morrowind, for instance the mass import of Khajiit slaves.
Basically, Hlaalu may have been tricksters, but they were Morrowind's tricksters, and were fulfilling their duty to their fellow Dunmer in the process, in their own way, under the direction of House Indoril, whether they liked it or not, as Indoril still dominated then. Redoran would not be above tricking others, especially outlanders, and Hlaalu are not always craven and dishonest. As stated, they fought alongside the Redoran when Reman invaded (as in actually invaded), and they have guards and other warriors just the same as any other House.
And again, there were no Imperial invaders since Reman. Tiber never invaded, and there was no war. The most that happened were inconclusive border skirmishes in Black Marsh, far from Redoran territory. Morrowind lore states that quite clearly. The Redoran were certainly nervous that it would come to an invasion, but the Armistice precluded that, which is why even if the Redoran may not have liked the terms of the Armistice they were if anything relieved by it.
And that's the main issue: Indoril was broken by the Armistice -- and not an invasion -- and that allowed Hlaalu to swallow their lands. That much makes sense. And hundreds of years later, Redoran is slow to exert its legitimate claims on Vvardenfell allowing Hlaalu to steal their land on Vvardenfell, and again, that makes sense. But at the time of the Armistice, Redoran were at their full (though much reduced from their glory days) strength, shoring up against a possible invasion. They were as strong and vigilant as they could be at that time. To say that Hlaalu took a quarter to a third of their land at that time, while simultaneously swallowing a similar portion of Indoril land, and without apparantly suffering much loss in the process, is very much a stretch in my opinion.
As a sidenote, to me Indoril are the only real proponents of Tribunal Morrowind. Redoran I see as unruly clan-warriors of pre-Tribunal days who sacrifice everything to make the Tribunal's vision a reality, but are functionally unable to thrive in such an environment themselves. Dres and Telvanni are also relics, the former supporting their fellow Dunmer despite whatever changes they undergo while keeping to their own ways, and the latter simply not getting involved. Hlaalu are loyal to Veloth's mission in their own way, and are devout followers of the Tribunal in their own way, but they are there to move the Dunmer forward.
2016-01-19 19:35
1 month 3 weeks ago
Hmm. Your argument is based on the Imperials being stopped cold at the border and the treaty happening before much damage could occur, while mine is based on the Imperials getting into Morrowind and causing some havoc before the Tribunal could get the treaty together.
And unfortunately, the lore could probably back us both up, depending on which sources we use.
I have a side question that might shed light on this--what was the Thirr River conflict like before the Hlaalu got involved? Meaning, did Redoran, Indoril, and Dres squabble in the same way, were the borders different, was there even a conflict at all?
2015-08-10 20:50
3 weeks 5 days ago
This is very much a run-down of TR lore, and I think there are certainly large parts where it diverges from the vanilla situation, though the latter is much harder to define:
Before the Armistice there was no large-scale conflict. Indoril controlled the interior of Morrowind, and the Thirr north of Lake Andaram was very much the interior. It basically acted like a heart, receiving goods from the furthest reaches of the province and then pumping them back out. Dres naturally controlled the Deshaan Plains to the southeast and grew saltrice to feed the province, while Telvanni were located in the eastern fringes of the province and mostly kept to themselves. Redoran controlled a broad strip of territory along Morrowind's western border, (the three marches), as well as Vvardenfell, though they were largely inactive in the latter as it was a Temple reserve. Hlaalu controlled very little land, centered around major trade cities at the passes into Cyrodiil: Kragen Mar, Narsis, and lands immediately surrounding Narsis.
There was no balance in territory size or power, merely in function. Indoril handled Morrowind's internal administration and economy, the Velothi goods production, Hlaalu import and export, Dres food production, Redoran defence, and Telvanni had a place as the dissidents. (Naturally there was some overlap in roles, but that's a good rule of thumb).
Hlaalu didn't have much in the way of plantations back then and were almost exclusively merchants interfacing with non-Dunmer. The marches had a relatively limited economy mainly focused on sustaining the local 'garrisons', and the land was largely left untamed.
All of that changed with the Armistice; the Hlaalu rapidly expanded their territory and actively exploited it, building mines and plantations and clearing forests. Places like the Othreleth that were at the edges of Morrowind -- aside from the major trade hubs -- suddenly competed with Morrowind's heartland. Dependence on Indoril administration fell away, first using the Empire as a crutch and then overproducing to the point of exerting control themselves. Hlaalu took control of the Thirr south of Lake Andaram and started levying tolls on goods transported along it. The Thirr itself was opened up more to foreign trade, even more so when Vvardenfell was eventually opened for colonization and the Inner Sea declared Imperial waters.
In general, Morrowind's economy, and with it its power balance, were thrown completely into disarray, and roles started heavily overlapping and shifting to the extent of threatening the relevance of whole Houses (specifically Hlaalu eclipsing most of Indoril's functions, also Dres' to a degree, and Redoran becoming less relevant than ever).
2016-01-19 19:35
1 month 3 weeks ago
Hmm. I almost get a "Last of the Samurai" or American Midwest feel from that--that is, the modern Midwest were farmlands are being abandoned as people move into the cities for more lucrative or highly educated jobs, and so the farms are coming under the control of large corporations instead of individual families, or just disappearing entirely. I could maybe see a more peaceful takeover where the Redoran's influence and population is slowly declining (from various small economic and political pressures, nothing conflicty--more that there's little need for warriors when you've got the Empire guarding the west flank), and so they slowly have been pulling out of their most farflung manors/outposts/farms in the south. Hlaalu on the other end is seeing a long slow increase as profits from trade with outsiders goes up, so they buy out some of the farms, "inherit" others as families marry, etc.
In contrast to your first idea, it 's not so much Redoran becoming Hlaalu as Redoran shrinking and Hlaalu growing. There might've been more of a conflict if Redoran wasn't shrinking, but they are--and then I imagine a sudden bloom in Hlaalu holdings once Redoran moves themselves to Vvardenfell.
I'm still not sure about the towers. I mean, I still really like the idea of the robber baron tollgates, even if they are no longer in use in TR's timeline.
2015-08-10 20:50
3 weeks 5 days ago
I still don't think it's necessary to use those particular towers for that idea. Discussions of Seryn included it having a dam that divides the shallow upper Othreleth that flows from Kragen Mar and can only carry light skiffs from the deeper Othreleth that has room for larger vessels and flows into the Thirr. Ud Hleryn planning involved a bridge spanning the Othreleth with a chain that could be lowered to block the river. The Hlaalu so thoroughly control the rivers south of Lake Andaram that the towers are just not necessary for them. While levying more tolls is viable, levying higher tolls is as well (within certain limits), and all of this is without considering the Andothren-OE deal on dividing local and interprovincial trade goods and the fact some smugglers are working for Hlaalu and collecting 'toll' on their behalf.
I think by and large your more gradual explanation does work better, but in that case I would still sprinkle in some minor Houses switching allegiance along with the occasional Hlaalu shenanigans to add more interest and momentum to the changes; especially a very quick initial expansion at the start to jumpstart Hlaalu efforts.
2016-01-19 19:35
1 month 3 weeks ago
Wait, did we argue so well we both changed sides?
But yeah, I can see something like that. Some of it just being the current state of economics and the balance of the Houses' power, some minor disagreements between minor Houses (need more minor House lore overall!) and then Hlaalu picking and poking at things here and there because that's what Hlaalu does.
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