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Concerns:
Related Release File:
Found in Version:
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Description:
Before release, Almas Thirr interiors will need a pass to ensure clutter/standards are appropriate.
Please post a Comment for things you want considered. I have posted some that have been brought up. They can be actioned or disregarded based on dev consensus.
TO DO:
- General minor issue pass: https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/asset/andaram-almast-thirr-minor-matter-...
- Comment - aveno: Notably review Canalworks Tombs. IMO: Remove unecessary cobbles. Ensure flora/miscs are scaled to 1.0. Change ash urn room so ash urns are 0.5 and placed on altars rather than cobbled shelves. Make it more in line with vanilla canton tomb ints.
(Aveno to look at this)
- Comment from vern: Almas Thirr, Temple: Almas Thirr already has a public tomb. This temple therefore should only have a single ashpit rather than a multitude. Needs more beds.
(Peter on this)
- Comment - aveno: Northern Lighthouse. I disagree with it having a cave section. The cave isn't badly made or anything, but it is a cave section cobbled on to a lighthouse interior. That they've (the Indoril) made a window in the wall for an archery range is a bit too silly imo and doesn't seem like the soundest architectural decision. - Drama!
[More will be added to this list]
Comments
We can work together on this.
We can work together on this. Personally I would be more standoffish about fixing stuff if it was truly very involved in the questline and more complicated than just a PositionCell line. Why won't you help us fix the quest rather than being defiant due to what seems to only be your favorable take on the cave?
Because it's not just a
Because it's not just a technical matter with the cave. That is an additional consideration.
The interior contributes to the storytelling of the location. The Indoril have recently moved in. They want to fit more people in there than they really can, so they hastily expand the space for storage/training/whatever. That aspect has been totally ignored, except for Vern opining that it is illogical. I disagree with that assessment.
I will remind you that this
I will remind you that this was not included in the design of the claim and was made as a creative descision by the claimant. This was reviewed and passed through, so yes we do claim some responsibility there, but that was also partly due to reviewers not having a designated channel to discuss these things. Nevertheless, it was determined to be bad and now is being addressed.
PS: There was a cave in the old version which was part of the reason this int was on the chopping block originally, so even more reason to remove
See, this is the issue. I'm
See, this is the issue. I'm bringing to the table "here's what's good about the int" and what I get in response is "it's bad and needs to be changed" without any addressing of what is good about the int.
I don't care who takes responsibility, I don't care whose fault it is. I care about the storytelling in Almas Thirr.
You guys are suggesting that Revane and I are somehow being intransigent, but it's you guys who are acting unilaterally here.
No, you are correct, it never
No, you are correct, it never has been about seniority. And I never claimed it was. I have voiced the same concerns pretty much word for word before I ever got the senior role here. So this is a complete digression that has nothing to do with anything said here in the past 24h.
Everyone would be annoyed if something they want to change gets "blocked", that's just human, so of course I would be too. I wouldn't dream of playing the "I'm a quest reviewer though, so my opinion is worth more than yours"-card though. And I can't remember a single time anyone has ever done that, whereas I've seen int reviewers try to pull rank several times instead of accepting that project decisions are every dev's business.
Revane, again, is right. This
Revane, again, is right. This isn't an "Interiors Matter", it's a "Project Matter". That interior has storytelling and quest implications, has already been incorporated into questing, and therefore we absolutely get a say over what's done with it.
And as for how many of which group are in favour of what outcome - this isn't a democracy of who shows up in a bugthread any more than it's the oligarchy of any particular "team". There are heaps of other people involved in the project who might want to have a say about this. Most of all, that means that you can't just move forward with the change as Vern clearly intends to. The rest of the stuff on this list - cool, fine, and on the Temple change yeah I can see that making sense. Though maybe the Tombs could be expanded a bit to fit in some more ashpits, as I like the aspect of Almas Thirr being a holding place for remains in transit to Necrom. But the lighthouse - we're not moving on that. Until we can reach a consensus or a broader project decision through the proper channels, that cave is staying where it is.
EDIT: this comment seems to have been messed up by pagination. Was in response to Mark.
> Though maybe the Tombs
> Though maybe the Tombs could be expanded a bit to fit in some more ashpits
Noted. Although it might be achievable just by changing the content of some rooms. Will see when I get to it
IMPORTANT Hoping this doesn't
IMPORTANT
Hoping this doesn't get lost in the deluge. I'm fairly certain that some scripting with positioncells is involved in the Temple, as the guy in the room at the end of the long octopus-tentacle has a quest that takes him to the Tombs and back up to his usual spot. Can I request that whoever makes the changes to that int also includes the coordinate change in the script? I'm happy to help with script issues, but it'd be easier to make it all part of one bugfix rather than breaking it out into multiples that need attention and merging and such.
That's Manyn Llando, for
That's Manyn Llando, for reference. The coordinates that need to be changed if he is moved are on the script on the NPC itself, so should be easy to spot.
Thank you!
Thank you!
Two more things: - Underworks
Two more things:
- Underworks has blacksquares visible on the water (screenshot by Tani on discord - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/261909498434682881/11581960127756...)
- This in the Lower Waistworks: https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/bugtracker/spouts-almas-thirr-lower-wais...
I took a look at the cave.
I took a look at the cave. The cobble is simply not a suitable one, it goes against both the design for the claim and good sensible interior design. I know you two want to keep the cave as-is but it really does not hold up. It causes problems for the pathgridding, it does not pass by current standards and it was added completely outside of the intent for the int.
In addressing what is good about the int: I appreciate what it was going for but believe it fails due to the cobble. To my eyes, it looks less like a hasty expansion and more like an exploited cave in. The archery area in particular I'm surprised passed the review in the first place. I understand the narrative implications of this int and I believe firmly that the narrative is both not compelling enough to justify such an obvious cobble, and is hampered by the distracting cave work.
Having taken a look at the associated quest it would be very very little work to change it, so much so that it's a non-issue in my eyes. Editing one line of code to change where Vodus is PositionCelled to is an absolutely insignificant amount of work, even taking into account potential dialogue edits. It is worth it to make the int improvements, more work has been done elsewhere to preserve better, such as the shipwreck redirect for Dead in the Water.
As such, in my opinion, it should get changed.
I do believe this is primarily an int issue, and it is an egregious one. The int, not the quest, is where the problem lies. To that end, almost the entire int review team have said unanimously it needs fixing. Even if it were a quest department issue, the quest itself is fine and needs the smallest possible tweak to fix. This is no more a quest issue than a misplaced interior window is an ext issue. As such, I feel the int department should get the say in whether to fix what is ultimately an int issue, especially when all but one int reviewer has now weighed in and all say the same.
As a fellow quest reviewer, what you are seeing for this int is barely anything. And it's certainly not worth overreaching the department to this degree that you make statements like "no it won't" when the entire int team decides to redo an int. For the good of the project your personal like of the cave can and will not overrule both what is now a huge majority of reviewers, and the entirety of the team most qualified to evaluate ints and perform the fixes.
Were the roles reversed, I would certainly never condone int reviewers stalling a quest redo design that the entire quest department liked just because they liked the original quest on the shaky grounds that it's their remit because the new design would require shuffling a few chairs around.
ₒₕ, bₒₒ𝒹?
I'm not opposed to making
I'm not opposed to making changes to the quest. I've said that. It's the narrative implications of the set-up for the wider location of Almas Thirr that I want to preserve. I don't care how it's done, but it's important to me that this aspect is preserved.
I didn't unilaterally say "it's not changing" until Vern said unilaterally that it is. All I'm asking for is that that characterisation be attended to in a refit. This has not been addressed at all. Even the minor point of the office under the stairs has been met with a flat no. There is no effort to compromise or address concerns that are squarely within the wheelhouse of "my" "department".
EDIT: I just want to add that the reason I brought up the Vodunius quest isn't because it's some big barrier to change or some gotcha. I brought it up because it wasn't mentioned in the report, and it's important. It's not hard to find quests that might be affected by int changes - you go Find Text -> Name of Int. With merged and NPCed and quested ints it's important that that extra step gets done.
I did address it, and as
I did address it, and as stated I believe it fails to convey those implications. Additionally, this lighthouse is not the keystone holding up the characterisation of the wider Almas Thirr. It is simply a bad int that needs fixing.
The intent for the int will, naturally, be considered in the claim when it is made. The reason they have not been addressed is because the objective is only to address the technical issues. The narrative of the interior shall be preserved in as far as the replacement will be made within context of Almas Thirr. That characterisation shall be taken into account in the new design. There are a million ways to tell the same story without preserving the bad design decisions, and the assumption that AT will be worse for this change is a big one.
The preservation of the narrative does not lie within the cobble, it can be well made *and* still narratively satisfying. And you are free to address that when it comes to designing the new int. However, the interior *problems* will get fixed. You do not get to say no to that. What fits within your wheelhouse is how the narrative works with the new one. So please, cooperate in the creation of the new design instead of being a roadblock here.
ₒₕ, bₒₒ𝒹?
The cave not being there
The cave not being there doesn't break Almas Thirr, no. Neither does it being there.
This is fake urgency being created to push through a change. Nothing, absolutely nothing, adverse would happen if this int gets released with Andaram as-is. Saying "ah, but we will address the narrative concerns later, for now the important thing is to change the int" is either willfully or very naively ignoring the fact that once it's been changed it becomes the new default, and there's no chance in hell it would ever get addressed at a later point in ANOTHER int redo.
"Remove first, address replacement later" stalls after the comma 95% of the time.
This is so bad faith I think
This is so bad faith I think it's genuinely impossible to reason with you at this point.
This isn't about "int reviewers have decided" it's about two people who disagree trying to overrule a decision made by all of the rest. I don't care what the circumstances of the agreement are, although that union nonsense is presumptuous of my motives at the very least, this project is only going to ever move forward if it is understood that two people cannot veto a decision made by many more people from more relevant departments.
Your angle has been that this is a hard no unless your demands are met, you say it should be consideration, but your requests were considered and then decided wholly against. It was felt that your arguments are insufficient to halt the intended int work. There is no conspiracy to time it so it can be pushed through, there is no union of int devs working to undermine you, there is no wilfull ignoring of your points. Why is it that whever a dev from any department really digs their heels in, the only reason anyone could possibly disagree with them is because there's a secret cabal working to undermine their every move. It always makes you sound ridiculous, like hearing no makes you instantly get the tin foil hat out.
Your points have been taken into account and ultimately disagreed with by a much larger body of people, the consensus is such. More people don't want the cave than do. Story ends. You will have to be disappointed this time.
ₒₕ, bₒₒ𝒹?
I don't make any demands. Or,
I don't make any demands. Or, I guess, I make one "demand", if you want to call it that, and that is that this is discussed in some other forum than the comments section of a bug report.
And saying "we need to fix this now, we can discuss the replacement later" is objectively what I described. This is not an urgent matter in any way. There's just been like thirty Roth Roryn ints opened for redos/refits. This is on the same level.
Our points weren't taken into
Our points weren't taken into account. They were flatly disregarded by a dev who states his opinion as if it's fact, and then everyone lined up to agree with him.
You claim that this is not important to AT's overall storytelling. I disagree. Note I'm not talking about THE CAVE specifically, but just the aspect that the Indoril have moved in recently and are using the space for a purpose other than that for which it was intended. As someone who has thought a lot about Almas Thirr, since I rebuilt the place, and has also thought a lot about the Indoril, I would hope that my opinion is taken into account here.
Deciding unilaterally that "no, this does not matter for Almas Thirr's storytelling" is absolutely taking this beyond a mere interiors matter.
Forgive me if I'm not brimming with confidence that this will attended to in the redesign based on how those who are responsible for the redesign have responded. The constant resorting to the "sit down, shut up" argument is pretty galling.
EDIT: like all I'm asking for you guys to say is "yeah, maybe that is pretty important. We'll make sure to think about that in the redesign process." But - no. The response has basically just been to fuck off. I'm not trying to tell you how to make ints. I'm just calling attention to something I think is important and hoping that gets taken seriously.
Nothing wrong with making
Nothing wrong with making changes to the cave. But that was never proposed. It was cutting it entirely.
And I personally don't think the Vodunius quest is the main issue here (pralec might disagree). It's the narrative implication of that cave existing in the first place. If changes can be made to it that make it more obviously dug out instead of an exploited cave-in - that's great. That's an improvement. And on the question of how to make it look more like it was excavated, I absolutely defer to people with more int experience than me.
Also, as has been observed, this isn't really just about the cave anymore. By pulling "int reviewers have decided" it was made about the way TR works and who gets to have final say on project decisions. If you would feel the same if the roles were reversed - okay. I would feel the same if the roles were reversed too, in that I would not tell those hypothetical int reviewers that we've already made the decision and so shut up and don't be uppity. The roles never seem to be reversed though, probably because quest reviewers apparently don't consider themselves a governing body apart from other devs like int reviewers do. Again, I'm under no illusion that it's possible the majority of TR devs completely agree with you, want to delete the cave without replacement, and feel that the storytelling purposes are either misguided or at least not worth it. The issue has been with the refusal to even entertain the notion. Because of this being tacked onto small AT fixes and put on the bugtracker, the only people in favour who have weighed in are the people who presumably already wrote that proposal or at least okayed its "release", since apparently int reviewers are their own union now.
This conversation is
This conversation is embarassing. Go to the server where we have conversations and quit this please.
Where on the server do you
Where on the server do you think would be best to have this conversation? Internal or Organisation?
Internal, I'd say.
Internal, I'd say.
Why did you get involved just
Why did you get involved just to take a moral high ground stance? Oh yeah lets bring this into discord. Good idea. Lets waste everyone's time and potentially have some members leave because of the drama. Seriously why even A) Suggest that B) get involved if all you are saying is "this in embarassing". Also it being here will be read by.... What? 20 people max? Oh no
Dying to know who you think
Dying to know who you think is going "leave the project" over this.
fix: https://www.tamriel
fix: https://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/asset/almas-thirr-int-change-files
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